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EVE API and Public CREST discussion

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Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2014-05-06 13:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Hidden Fremen wrote:
Querns wrote:
Excellent change. This should allow entities without a significant amount of web tools to be able to use wspace without having their existence stand out like a beacon to bored, entrenched powers who abuse wormhole rolling mechanics to strike at them with overwhelming force, then collapsing the hole so there is no possibility for counterattack.

Stiff upper lip, CCP Foxfour -- don't let the whining get to you.


If you're gonna farm in wspace, use the tools to ensure your own "safety". How *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. does that sound? Changes to make farming Sleepers safer... *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.

You know what this change is going to do instead? It's going to incentivize evictions again. I promise you.


Thats bad why?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#222 - 2014-05-06 13:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Prism X
Valterra Craven wrote:
So um here's an idea, instead of taking a feature away that almost all of these people use (and when I say people I am NOT talking about myself since I have literally never been inside an icky wormhole), you add a feature and make the data available in the client.... that way everyone wins.... or you could continue down your current road and **** people off for no reason. (I already know which road you are going to take)


You're being silly.

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-05-06 13:52:56 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

so honestly, and be as honest as you can about this, how much does this data benefit you in Whs as an attacker? How much does it really help finding fights right now that you couldn't figure out another way.
.


As for us (blood union/ e x p l o s i o n) we operate in early EU TZ. There is no chance for us to find a decent PVP at this time by simply rolling statics and roaming WHs. Without it we cant get most PVP content.

CCP FoxFour wrote:

You guys will just end up replacing this data with data from zKill for PvP information, so really the biggest loss is historical data about NPC kills. So OK, you jump into a system check this data, see when people are active, and ready a log off trap. That is, from what we here can tell and what we get told by people we talk to.
.


1) Zkb/evekill data do not matter and do not provide enough info (even if ppl who live here care to share kills api with them)
2) Ratters in WH do not die/pod, so there is no way to say they active or even here using kills/pod kills
3) Kill of party X in WH Y do not mean party X active in WH Y at all.

CCP FoxFour wrote:


Thats... thats not a good enough reason for me to leave this data. It's a huge advantage to you as an attacker and gives nothing to the defender. If you want to do that kind of thing you should have put eyes on this kind of intel yourself or just take the risk of logging your stuff off and maybe getting nothing.


1) Defender have unlimited ships and pilots in system. Attacker limited to 3 capitals and few support.
2) Defender can choose place of activity, time of activity, periods of activity
3) Defender can monitor the system - there is no way to tell of logoff trap was spotted.
4) Defender can prepare counter-logoff trap.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#224 - 2014-05-06 13:55:20 UTC
Frankly, you guys who are kneejerk posting in this thread are supplying more and more reasons why the change should go into effect. It's pretty clear from skimming the last couple of pages that abuse of this gap in the information provided between the eve client and the API was widespread. Given that the design goal of the API is to not expose information that would otherwise be unavailable, it's extremely unlikely that the change will be reversed. CCP has already gone to extreme lengths to keep this the case in the case of the AssetList.xml.aspx call lying to the API consumer in the case of a mobile siphon unit.

In other words -- take your lumps like a man, Pvt. Twinkle Toes.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
dhunpael
#225 - 2014-05-06 13:59:10 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
So um here's an idea, instead of taking a feature away that almost all of these people use (and when I say people I am NOT talking about myself since I have literally never been inside an icky wormhole), you add a feature and make the data available in the client.... that way everyone wins.... or you could continue down your current road and **** people off for no reason. (I already know which road you are going to take)


You're being silly.


no, not really. That might even be a possible spark for pvp.
=> notice a wormhole with a shitton of PVE activity, try to find it and end the PVE happening there. Cool
=> it would make no one safe in whole space, because you know that your activity will be noted.
Napoleon Aldent
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#226 - 2014-05-06 14:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Napoleon Aldent
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,

as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint. This is data that exists in the API but not the client and is incredibly powerful. As with everything I am open to discussing this, but I will admit that you will have a damn hard time convincing me of not doing it.


Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.

Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.

If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.  -Goonswarm 2014
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#227 - 2014-05-06 14:03:58 UTC
Querns wrote:
Frankly, you guys who are kneejerk posting in this thread are supplying more and more reasons why the change should go into effect. It's pretty clear from skimming the last couple of pages that abuse of this gap in the information provided between the eve client and the API was widespread. Given that the design goal of the API is to not expose information that would otherwise be unavailable, it's extremely unlikely that the change will be reversed. CCP has already gone to extreme lengths to keep this the case in the case of the AssetList.xml.aspx call lying to the API consumer in the case of a mobile siphon unit.

In other words -- take your lumps like a man, Pvt. Twinkle Toes.


So with that in mind you would support removing NPC kill and Jumplog data from Nullsec?

(BTW I am fine with the no jumplog thing)

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#228 - 2014-05-06 14:05:03 UTC
This has as much potential to find you PvP as it has the ability to help you avoid it. A smart farmer will notice activity in a system and avoid it, just like a pvp'er may be drawn to it. It's balanced in that regard, and has been a feature of wormhole life for so long now that I just struggle to see how logoff traps are suddenly a significant issue.

There are arguments in the other direction too, sure, but I'm confident if you took a physical poll you'd see the vast majority would be against the change.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#229 - 2014-05-06 14:06:00 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
Querns wrote:
Frankly, you guys who are kneejerk posting in this thread are supplying more and more reasons why the change should go into effect. It's pretty clear from skimming the last couple of pages that abuse of this gap in the information provided between the eve client and the API was widespread. Given that the design goal of the API is to not expose information that would otherwise be unavailable, it's extremely unlikely that the change will be reversed. CCP has already gone to extreme lengths to keep this the case in the case of the AssetList.xml.aspx call lying to the API consumer in the case of a mobile siphon unit.

In other words -- take your lumps like a man, Pvt. Twinkle Toes.


So with that in mind you would support removing NPC kill and Jumplog data from Nullsec?

(BTW I am fine with the no jumplog thing)

No, because this information is available in the eve client. I can see ship kills, pod kills, npc kills, jumps, active pilots in space, and pilots docked directly from the eve client without the use of third party tools.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2014-05-06 14:07:00 UTC
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,

as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint. This is data that exists in the API but not the client and is incredibly powerful. As with everything I am open to discussing this, but I will admit that you will have a damn hard time convincing me of not doing it.


Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.

Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.

If you're going to start holding yourselves to standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.


Of all the examples you could have held up, you choose this. Wow.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Valterra Craven
#231 - 2014-05-06 14:10:34 UTC
dhunpael wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
So um here's an idea, instead of taking a feature away that almost all of these people use (and when I say people I am NOT talking about myself since I have literally never been inside an icky wormhole), you add a feature and make the data available in the client.... that way everyone wins.... or you could continue down your current road and **** people off for no reason. (I already know which road you are going to take)


You're being silly.


no, not really. That might even be a possible spark for pvp.
=> notice a wormhole with a shitton of PVE activity, try to find it and end the PVE happening there. Cool
=> it would make no one safe in whole space, because you know that your activity will be noted.


I think he meant I was being silly because I suggested something reasonable and CCP usually never takes the reasonable route... ( I have to say usually now since they listened to me in another thread...https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4557185#post4557185)
Creaming Soda
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#232 - 2014-05-06 14:10:56 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,

as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint. This is data that exists in the API but not the client and is incredibly powerful. As with everything I am open to discussing this, but I will admit that you will have a damn hard time convincing me of not doing it.


Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.

Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.

If you're going to start holding yourselves to standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce.


Of all the examples you could have held up, you choose this. Wow.


admittedly, not great /wince - but there are many more examples EXACTLY such as this, it just happens to be a well known one (and arguable contentious in some circles)

Creaming Soda Ariel Rin
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#233 - 2014-05-06 14:12:51 UTC
devs asked insects to troll this topic or what?
Valterra Craven
#234 - 2014-05-06 14:15:36 UTC
RudinV wrote:
devs asked insects to troll this topic or what?


Hey look! A post!
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2014-05-06 14:17:26 UTC
Someone pressed the button on the box of suffering and tears. We come.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#236 - 2014-05-06 14:17:51 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
There are arguments in the other direction too, sure, but I'm confident if you took a physical poll you'd see the vast majority would be against the change.


If only forum activity mirrored wh population ...
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#237 - 2014-05-06 14:25:12 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
There are arguments in the other direction too, sure, but I'm confident if you took a physical poll you'd see the vast majority would be against the change.


If only forum activity mirrored wh population ...

I know right?

Can you imagine 20 of me? Shocked

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#238 - 2014-05-06 14:30:55 UTC
seems that devs just cant find what to do else. everything is perfect and shiny and no problems in code now. POS issues are fixed, some random bugs are fixed, black holes fixed, ally bookmarks-fixed...what else....hmmm lets cancel intel! some of our buddies were complaining about this super dangerous logoff trappers, yes, this is general issue right nowLol
Silvonus
Spacewreck Emporium
#239 - 2014-05-06 14:33:48 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
One of the biggest things we expect this to impact is log off traps. Most people I have talked to before posting this idea agreed that this data was most valuable for finding people to log off trap. People also agreed it was marginally helpful in finding live fights, but not very helpful in that way and most agreed they could easily find a way to adapt.

Very much this. While the current API information on ship kills is nice, it is typically too old to be of any significant value (unless log-in trap), where by the time we see the NPC kills, they are already done. We find much more to shoot by actively traveling in systems and dscaning for wrecks than relying on a application to tell us.

I support the removal of NPC kill endpoints from the API so long as all PvP kills remain documented, because we like to boast and epeen as well.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#240 - 2014-05-06 14:34:12 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
There are arguments in the other direction too, sure, but I'm confident if you took a physical poll you'd see the vast majority would be against the change.


If only forum activity mirrored wh population ...

I know right?

Can you imagine 20 of me? Shocked


Big smile

Guess there will be plenty people upset with this change. Myself, I haven't yet decided if this is good or bad for wh-space ...

It just seems to me that it is a few (say 20-30) big corporations that are heavily relying on this data while smaller corporations don't really care (a lot). This might be an indication that it can't be that important, really.