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EVE API and Public CREST discussion

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Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#181 - 2014-05-06 12:34:07 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:



Again... no not at all. We want to remove it because by DESIGN we don't include this in the client. If we thought "hey, cool wish this information was in the client" we would add it to our backlog to get done and thank people who make the tools. These tools however go against our desired designs. Hence the change.


Maybe they weren't initially intended, but look at the positives that've happened as a result of them being included. The backlash seems to show this is a major change.

WTB WH Space dev

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Daimian Mercer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#182 - 2014-05-06 12:36:56 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Daimian Mercer wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
So lets answer a few questions:

Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.


Your software relying on it is basically why we are doing this. This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not. CCP by design specifically did not include a map of WH space, and we specifically did not include this information in the client.

Earlier we removed jumps for WH systems from the API. Removing this was something that should have been done then.


So your idea behind removing kill API data is because CCP's software design model is flawed and the people in charge do not want to spend money we pay you to play the game you developed that is missing client side code to display info you already have been tracking for 6 years. And your response is to remove this data from outside access so you don't have to spend money to fix the EVE client to show what the community has stepped up and done for you?

I think this is a prime example of why CCP as a company has continued to use it's own shortcoming as an excuse to avoid development expenses. Saying "We are removing it because we don't include it in the client" is a statement that should never be said to begin with.



Again... no not at all. We want to remove it because by DESIGN we don't include this in the client. If we thought "hey, cool wish this information was in the client" we would add it to our backlog to get done and thank people who make the tools. These tools however go against our desired designs. Hence the change.


If it was by design not to have this information ever tracked and displayed - why on this earth did you leave it in the API end-points for 6 years... 6 years... years... 6 of them...

But the above point aside... it appears your getting quite a bit of resistance. Perhaps it is time to take further polling on the subject before considering moving forward with such a change? Please and thank you!

Creator of Tripwire mapping tool - EVE-O thread

Twitter | daimian.mercer@gmail.com
Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#183 - 2014-05-06 12:38:10 UTC
Also, what WH space entity doesn't use a mapping tool? Even playing field it seems vOv

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
Creaming Soda
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#184 - 2014-05-06 12:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Creaming Soda
Not a comment out of hate or spite, but wormholes could do with some lovin'

For the sake of a coherent argument and less veins popping in my temple i will ignore wormhole space as a specific.

Wormholes are EDIT: not great END-EDIT for a mixture of reasons, POS's are the redheaded stepchild no one can control (or wants to) and various mechanics making our life hell... Most of these issues CCP have actively acknowledged and/or are "Working as intended", and that's ok, because hey - if wormhole space was easy i wouldn't have enjoyed it so much.

I'm not even going to argue against the mechanic change, even if i have grown used to it. my problem here is TIMING, why NOW...

Wormhole dwellers often rely on this information to make the hellish nightmare that is our everyday logistics and residence, remotely enjoyable, that is, an issue for another time however.

The point being there are so many other options and mechanics to change, admittedly most of them are awaiting gargantuan projects, such as the rewrite of the horrendous POS code (programmer-me says ewww!) to effect this change now makes no sense than to make the change at a later point or not at all or even to eat icecream, its not-relevant

Making this change now, is like fighting with your wife and expecting her to bring you beer and cheese while you play eve/dust/valkyrie

---

On a related note, Please forgive me if I'm wrong but the large portion of wormhole dwellers use out of game tools, this might be worth looking into as part of your decision making process, albeit even though these tools aren't supported directly

Creaming Soda Ariel Rin
Winthorp
#185 - 2014-05-06 12:38:53 UTC
Andrew Jester wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:



Again... no not at all. We want to remove it because by DESIGN we don't include this in the client. If we thought "hey, cool wish this information was in the client" we would add it to our backlog to get done and thank people who make the tools. These tools however go against our desired designs. Hence the change.


Maybe they weren't initially intended, but look at the positives that've happened as a result of them being included. The backlash seems to show this is a major change.

WTB WH Space dev


I have to wonder how many devs have actually discussed the ramifications of this and the other instant signature display and is the PVE direction of WH space the way they see how Wh's should be.

Can we seriously get other devs to post their thoughts on this, maybe devs that wont just rage at me and be willing to discuss things with our community further then saying WTF to me.
Koban Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2014-05-06 12:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Koban Agalder
CCP FoxFour wrote:



Again... no not at all. We want to remove it because by DESIGN we don't include this in the client. If we thought "hey, cool wish this information was in the client" we would add it to our backlog to get done and thank people who make the tools. These tools however go against our desired designs. Hence the change.


So WHY do you leave it for rest of Kspace ?

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#187 - 2014-05-06 12:46:08 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,

as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint. This is data that exists in the API but not the client and is incredibly powerful. As with everything I am open to discussing this, but I will admit that you will have a damn hard time convincing me of not doing it.

The feature really achieves nothing that people couldn't already discover by using system tools like eveye for a very long time. It just makes it a little quicker and more convenient, which is great when you're trying to find some potential content. In saying that though it also offers no huge advantage for finding fights or a gank imo. I think much of the time it's hit-and-miss as to whether anything is even still going on in a system that shows PVE/PVP kills.

I think removing this feature from mapping tools and/or sites would be counter-productive to wormhole pvp content though. I enjoy it as a reference and would prefer seeing it left as it is. Others can use it against you just as easily as you could against them. Can't see any balance problem really.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#188 - 2014-05-06 12:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
I really dont understand the rage here...
this change for WHs only makes perfect lore sense and is almost completely irrelevant.
kspace has gate becons/local/whatever else that tracks things like this from a lore POV, WHs dont.
as for game play? when was the last time you really used an activity counter/notification to get any kills? i had a think and couldnt come up with a single time.
yeah ok, it gives you an idea of what TZ people bear in. so does jumping into their system and hitting dscan.

the info is an hour old anyway and anyone who uses hour old intel in wspace is not going to last long there.
advice from an old tracker; if you want to find someone, look with your eyes.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Jonny Baconbits
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#189 - 2014-05-06 12:47:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonny Baconbits
CCP FoxFour wrote:
So lets answer a few questions:

Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.


Your software relying on it is basically why we are doing this. This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not. CCP by design specifically did not include a map of WH space, and we specifically did not include this information in the client.

Earlier we removed jumps for WH systems from the API. Removing this was something that should have been done then.



It’s because W-Space has a dynamic map that this information should remain (or be enhanced), not in spite of. We can’t plop scouts in every system around our area of influence like those in K-space. Software tools like ours are also what differentiate PVP alliances from those that are simply in W-Space to farm sleepers and the like. Additionally, public tools like DOTLAN also provide this information so the excuse that ‘it’s not fair that some alliances have this when others do not’ falls short. Finally, it seems that a game like EVE with a robust API should encourage third party development and tools (and iirc you do actively do this) – why should this one specific data point fall short of something that CCP would allow third party providers to query and present to EVE players?

CCP FoxFour wrote:


You don't have a nice in-game map because part of the design for WH space is that you do not. Giving those with access to the ability to create tools and advantage over those that do not is NOT what the API is for. While there are many cases of this being true elsewhere, this is a very big one.

To your point on this information being removed from all of space, and I will repeat this, this information was specifically designed NOT to be there for WH space. It is meant to be there for the rest of space.


Finally, and forgive my cynicism, but I find it this whole block of your response disingenuous. As stated above, there are public tools available to access this information, so it doesn’t NEED to be in the client. Additionally, W-Space has been around for upwards of 5 years now, whether this functionality was intended or not in accordance with the ‘design’ should be irrelevant and the fact that is was not intended but provided for this length of time is damning to your case on its own merit.

Metagaming mechanics of w-space should have clued CCP into the fact that capsuleers would indeed attempt to live in W-Space and once inhabited it would be natural for those residents to gather and log as much intel as possible about their surroundings and environment.

/Another disappointed w-space resident
Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#190 - 2014-05-06 12:47:15 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
This information helps only those who know how to access it, and it helps them in a dramatic way. This information is also counter to our design for WH space.


There are several of these `mappers` that are available to everyone.
Both siggy and tripwire are free to use and there is atleast one opensource mapper available for people that want to host something on their on machines.
There are also free sites such as http://www.staticmapper.com/ wich provide this information for people that do not have the luxery of a mapper.
All of these can be found in the stickies of the wormhole subforum.

The argument that some people might not have access to this information is, as you can see invalid.


CCP FoxFour wrote:
To your point on this information being removed from all of space, and I will repeat this, this information was specifically designed NOT to be there for WH space. It is meant to be there for the rest of space.


Wether or not it was meant to be this way, I think does not matter. `because it was designed this way` is not the same as `it is a bad feature`.
Wormholes where not expected to have people settle in them either, but they did.



CCP FoxFour wrote:
This information is also primarily helpful to one group, the invaders while being incredibly counter helpful to the defenders.

I'm not sure how invaders can use this information to their advantage. My alliance has experience invading wormholes (we did one last week), and this information does not give you any advantage what so ever. Nor would it `help` the defender to know how much was killed in their wormhole..

This information is an important tool for us to find our content. Once we are in a system, these statistics are irrelevant.

Currently, these statistics are the ONLY risks for people farming sleeper sites in c6 and c5 wormholes. Especially when you made the auto-updating signature/scan window. Removing this does not fit the risk vs reward model you guys speak so much about at fanfest.


CCP FoxFour wrote:
Your software relying on it is basically why we are doing this. This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not.

The software is obviously not relying on it in a sense that it won't function anymore, but this is a HUGE feature in said software. As I already showed, this information and these tools ARE in fact available for everyone.



The sheer number of replies here already I think shows how essential this information is to the wormhole community.
Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#191 - 2014-05-06 12:48:37 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
The feature really achieves nothing that people couldn't already discover by using system tools like eveye for a very long time.


You realise that if this hits, eveye and dotlan will also, not be able get this information.
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#192 - 2014-05-06 12:50:01 UTC
Funny how much devs wanna make bears happy, mobile scan inhibitors, tractors, depos, tools which are designed mostly for them. Now u wanna remove pve intel in order that it was prime idea of wspace, so can u clearify a bit- what was that idea? that w-space should be pve paradise and the easiest place to farm toyota or? I just cant see the clear point of removing it.
Is it essential tool for pvp? yes it is, is it overpowered? i dont think so, knowledge itself can not be overpovered, for a good pvp operation u have to have much more than just it: people online, people who can fly proper ships, time, bears who wanna farm (yes, they dont farm all the time-yet) and some other things. So back to start: i dont think u will have time to implement this feature, becouse i hope u will spend some more time to make researches and after... why dont u wanna make cov ops hulk instead? or smth same...very important thing alsoBlink
Miriam Hanomaa
Rogue Inferno.
Pandemic Horde
#193 - 2014-05-06 12:52:57 UTC
This does not help against invasions - when I have a fleet seeded in your system, waiting for you to do sites to murder your caps & then burn you out of your space, I'm of course keeping multiple scouts online at all times to wait for the opportune moment - not waiting to login mah capfleet because some statistic says its time.
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#194 - 2014-05-06 12:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Necharo Rackham
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Again... no not at all. We want to remove it because by DESIGN we don't include this in the client. If we thought "hey, cool wish this information was in the client" we would add it to our backlog to get done and thank people who make the tools. These tools however go against our desired designs. Hence the change.


Well, at one level that's fine, your game your rules. OTOH the net EFFECT of this is that there will be less conflict than there is currently - so it would be nice to see that if you are making this change that there is some other change somewhere that promotes W-space conflict and specifically keeps the level of risk for PVE at roughly where it is.

And tbh, the reason people built all those tools would be that the game you gave us would be virtually unplayable otherwise - at least, it wouldn't have retained out interest for as long as it has.
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2014-05-06 12:57:44 UTC
Hi

As for game design - why not consider "NPC kill count" as the data sleepers report to players or concord? They pretty advanced and surely can do that. Especially in C5 C6 wormhole space. You cant expect sleepers to die silently. They want revenge!

I guess its one of the situations where a "flaw" is a feature and made the WH the place it is and should be.

Otherwise you

1) Will remove about trillions of isks of PVP per month from the game. An effect of this will be similar to Jita burn... but in reverse way

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=7341
http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_ext_id=98091693

and thats just our 2 of wide list of WH active groups

2) Kick on the stomach all WH PVP alliances. in fact, you will kill some of them. WH PVP will be almost dead, especially for some timezones.

3) Make it safe for RMT players to farm in WH space. I guess you can calculate how ratters safely making 1 plex per 10 min will affect EVE economy and how do they use that insane flow of isks.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#196 - 2014-05-06 12:57:44 UTC
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
The feature really achieves nothing that people couldn't already discover by using system tools like eveye for a very long time.


You realise that if this hits, eveye and dotlan will also, not be able get this information.

Aye, that's why I said removing it from mapping tools and/or sites (meaning things like eveeye).

In a way I agree with Jack's sentiment in regards that I've never heard of people having a ton of luck using this feature to find "live" PVP content, the info is delayed as he said. But it's still somewhat helpful in that regard anyway, and for many other reasons it's just nice to be able to look at a system's info and see how active PVE/PVP has been in there for many reasons beyond just finding PVP content. I dunno about others but when I bring up a system to study it the first thing I look at isn't it's diameter or moon-count, but how active it's been.

Really can't see the problem in leaving it how it is.

Save this valuable Dev time and instead get me some moar hairstyles, CCP FoxFour! Big smile

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Canibeat ProperAllDay
Hovis Medium Soft Bread
#197 - 2014-05-06 13:00:07 UTC
RudinV wrote:
Funny how much devs wanna make bears happy, mobile scan inhibitors, tractors, depos, tools which are designed mostly for them. Now u wanna remove pve intel in order that it was prime idea of wspace, so can u clearify a bit- what was that idea? that w-space should be pve paradise and the easiest place to farm toyota or? I just cant see the clear point of removing it.
Is it essential tool for pvp? yes it is, is it overpowered? i dont think so, knowledge itself can not be overpovered, for a good pvp operation u have to have much more than just it: people online, people who can fly proper ships, time, bears who wanna farm (yes, they dont farm all the time-yet) and some other things. So back to start: i dont think u will have time to implement this feature, becouse i hope u will spend some more time to make researches and after... why dont u wanna make cov ops hulk instead? or smth same...very important thing alsoBlink


God forbid you had to actually scout wormholes and gather intel before you just log off a fleet in there and leave a tengu online for 24 hours.

Im sure that was by design though. Roll
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#198 - 2014-05-06 13:04:59 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
The feature really achieves nothing that people couldn't already discover by using system tools like eveye for a very long time.


You realise that if this hits, eveye and dotlan will also, not be able get this information.

Aye, that's why I said removing it from mapping tools and/or sites (meaning things like eveeye).

In a way I agree with Jack's sentiment in regards that I've never heard of people having a ton of luck using this feature to find "live" PVP content, the info is delayed as he said. But it's still somewhat helpful in that regard anyway, and for many other reasons it's just nice to be able to look at a system's info and see how active PVE/PVP has been in there for many reasons beyond just finding PVP content. I dunno about others but when I bring up a system to study it the first thing I look at isn't it's diameter or moon-count, but how active it's been.

Really can't see the problem in leaving it how it is.

Save this valuable Dev time and instead get me some moar hairstyles, CCP FoxFour! Big smile


Unfortunately they don't let me touch art assets. :( If they did I am sure I could get you some epic pink mohawk. :D

One of the biggest things we expect this to impact is log off traps. Most people I have talked to before posting this idea agreed that this data was most valuable for finding people to log off trap. People also agreed it was marginally helpful in finding live fights, but not very helpful in that way and most agreed they could easily find a way to adapt.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#199 - 2014-05-06 13:05:27 UTC
So.. as the former API guy and member of Team Bifröst, the team that made the wormhole space; You were never supposed to be able to see this data. If it's not in the client it cannot be in the API because the same information should be available to everybody playing this game. Nobody is supposed to get a decisive advantage because they have access to data other people have no means of availing themselves to.

The fact that we screwed up and forgot to sanitize the API calls does not change that design.

Now stop being mad at FoxFour, he's a delicate lotus blossom. You can be mad at me for forgetting this in the first place when I was creating WH Space and thus giving you false expectations. Please direct all angry rants to foxfour@ccpgames.com.

Thank you and have a nice day!

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#200 - 2014-05-06 13:08:09 UTC
Let me repost this since I have a feeling it will be lost in flood

"
As for game design - why not consider "NPC kill count" as the data sleepers report to players or concord? They pretty advanced and surely can do that. Especially in C5 C6 wormhole space. You cant expect sleepers to die silently. They want revenge!

I guess its one of the situations where a "flaw" is a feature and made the WH the place it is and should be.

Otherwise you

1) Will remove about trillions of isks of PVP per month from the game. An effect of this will be similar to Jita burn... but in reverse way

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=7341
http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_ext_id=98091693

and thats just our 2 of wide list of WH active groups

2) Kick on the stomach all WH PVP alliances. in fact, you will kill some of them. WH PVP will be almost dead, especially for some timezones.

3) Make it safe for RMT players to farm in WH space. I guess you can calculate how ratters safely making 1 plex per 10 min will affect EVE economy and how do they use that insane flow of isks.
"