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New Rattler vs Ishtar/Dominix

Author
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-05-05 20:18:08 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I believe he was talking about a complete unpiloted, afk asist bunny.

Not exactly anything but niche, far from the basis of a decent complaint.


Hardly niche.


Dualboxing level fours with one account untouched is very niche. These missions are not hard, you don't need two ships. You'd be much better off using two Rattlesnakes and running two missions at once.

Also, why would you use a BS for this at all? Use an Ishtar, it's better for this kind of strategy in literally every way.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#22 - 2014-05-05 20:19:52 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I believe he was talking about a complete unpiloted, afk asist bunny.

Not exactly anything but niche, far from the basis of a decent complaint.


Hardly niche.


Because everyone in the game runs missions with an AFK sentry-Domi alt? AMIRITE?

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....

John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#23 - 2014-05-05 21:03:14 UTC
Xequecal wrote:

Dualboxing level fours with one account untouched is very niche. These missions are not hard, you don't need two ships. You'd be much better off using two Rattlesnakes and running two missions at once.

Also, why would you use a BS for this at all? Use an Ishtar, it's better for this kind of strategy in literally every way.


Single boxing (2 accounts on same PC) actually. It's not about difficulty, it's about speed. Obviously I could do the missions with a single ship, but it's far quicker with two.

I agree, an Ishtar would be better, but I can't fly one. So, until I can, I'm stuck with the Domi.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#24 - 2014-05-05 21:04:05 UTC
Last Wolf wrote:
Because everyone in the game runs missions with an AFK sentry-Domi alt? AMIRITE?


Why don't you make a poll?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-05-05 21:39:39 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Navy Domi has to consider tracking and application from guns when attaining such high DPS numbers. The Ratler just drops drones and hits the missiles. Both will serve a purpose post-patch, which is exactly what CCP wants.


And the rattler does not have to consider target velocity, especially burning from range?
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-05-05 21:44:38 UTC
Blitz Apollo wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunately without examples your point is void of informational value.


Examples? If you think this is just a re-skin of a Navy Domi you are very, very wrong.


I didnt say that.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#27 - 2014-05-05 23:08:24 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Also, why would you use a BS for this at all? Use an Ishtar, it's better for this kind of strategy in literally every way.

Not trolling, just curious:
One of the big advantages of the BS hulls (as I see it) for sentry drone work is the LMJD. If you can't kill stuff before the get under your tracking, point in a random direction, activate the LMJD, pull in your sentries, then stop and re-deploy sentries after the LMJD finishes. Voila, blap everything from a safe distance.

How does the Ishtar cope with being unable to do this? Especially since you're partly sig/speed tanking, it seems to me that getting webbed is a good way to get murdered--and since you're orbiting the beacon or one of your drones, you might not be able to immediately recall all of your deployed drones.

I haven't flown an Ishtar (just a Vexor Navy Issue), and I get that its bonuses are fantastic for sentry work...but I love the LMJD on my Rattler and can't imagine life without it on a sentry boat. What am I missing?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-05-05 23:36:27 UTC
Ishtar is plenty fast enough to burn to appropriate range first, if required. After that, it's a target priority call. Easy Money, they're a premier [guristas especially] anom runner, missions are equally simple if not more so.
Lothros Andastar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-05-06 02:03:24 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Also, why would you use a BS for this at all? Use an Ishtar, it's better for this kind of strategy in literally every way.

Not trolling, just curious:
One of the big advantages of the BS hulls (as I see it) for sentry drone work is the LMJD. If you can't kill stuff before the get under your tracking, point in a random direction, activate the LMJD, pull in your sentries, then stop and re-deploy sentries after the LMJD finishes. Voila, blap everything from a safe distance.

How does the Ishtar cope with being unable to do this? Especially since you're partly sig/speed tanking, it seems to me that getting webbed is a good way to get murdered--and since you're orbiting the beacon or one of your drones, you might not be able to immediately recall all of your deployed drones.

I haven't flown an Ishtar (just a Vexor Navy Issue), and I get that its bonuses are fantastic for sentry work...but I love the LMJD on my Rattler and can't imagine life without it on a sentry boat. What am I missing?

Against Guristas you can tank multiple thousand DPS incoming damage. You simply never need to move.
stoicfaux
#30 - 2014-05-06 03:57:11 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
1075-1240 dps, congratulations, its a navy domi with bigger tank , 94km targeting range and 84km control range

Gecko will get 1100 DPS alone, apparently.

Yup.

Ogre II base damage: 1.92 * 48 = 93.12 times 2 = 186.24 (gecko replaces two heavies.)
Gecko base damage: 2.05 * 128 = 262.4

262.4 / 186.24 = 1.41, meaning Gekcos provide a ~41% DPS boost over Ogre IIs.

Five Ogre IIs on today's Rattlesnake puts out 845 DPS, so the Summer Rattlesnake will do 845 * 1.41 = ~1190 DPS. Now add in summer faction drone modules for another 5% maybe, and we're up to ~1,250 DPS.

And we're looking at around 4,300 m/s in terms of speed with three Drone Nav Computer IIs.



On the down side, and CCP will burn in the flaming pits of hell for this, is that the 8% drone specialization skill won't apply. EvilEvilEvil

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#31 - 2014-05-06 04:49:10 UTC
Dem Geckos are pretty dam powerful. nearly 1100 DPS on a Rattlesnake with just a single Gecko. The one weakness the Gecko has is that it does omnidamage, so if you're doing missioning omnidamage is not as good as pure damage.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#32 - 2014-05-06 05:46:56 UTC
I just tried one out in an Arbitrator. It kills elite frigs faster than bonused Hobos.
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#33 - 2014-05-06 07:35:23 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
Dem Geckos are pretty dam powerful. nearly 1100 DPS on a Rattlesnake with just a single Gecko. The one weakness the Gecko has is that it does omnidamage, so if you're doing missioning omnidamage is not as good as pure damage.



Doesnt matter at that point.


Basically the rattle hull is going to be pretty insane in gurista and serpentis space for just about anything. If you fully active tank it(3x Faction DDA 3x Faction BCU) your looking at something close to 1600 dps to their weakest reists. Now i know actual applied dps might be closer to 1200 but still. Thats insane for what could basically load FOFs and go afk.

Its definately not as cost effective as an ishtar but might just become king of the level 4 heap again.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#34 - 2014-05-06 08:48:56 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Also, why would you use a BS for this at all? Use an Ishtar, it's better for this kind of strategy in literally every way.

Not trolling, just curious:
One of the big advantages of the BS hulls (as I see it) for sentry drone work is the LMJD. If you can't kill stuff before the get under your tracking, point in a random direction, activate the LMJD, pull in your sentries, then stop and re-deploy sentries after the LMJD finishes. Voila, blap everything from a safe distance.

How does the Ishtar cope with being unable to do this? Especially since you're partly sig/speed tanking, it seems to me that getting webbed is a good way to get murdered--and since you're orbiting the beacon or one of your drones, you might not be able to immediately recall all of your deployed drones.

I haven't flown an Ishtar (just a Vexor Navy Issue), and I get that its bonuses are fantastic for sentry work...but I love the LMJD on my Rattler and can't imagine life without it on a sentry boat. What am I missing?


The MJD puts a 5 or 6 gun dominix miles beyond its effective gunnery range, and puts a rattlesnake miles beyond garde II effective range. If you are dealing 1000+ dps in a mission its either showtime and you'll have to warp out because showtime is hard, or you will literally burn down the PVE dps before it burns your buffer. IMO that its pretty much the "fun" in L4 missions for me, trying to bring so much dps to bear as to cheese the mission, and its also obviously the highest earning strategy.

There are some specific observations I'd also make for PVE.

a - the Ishtar locks a new spawn much faster than a battleship - so it will lock and kill a frigate more or less at the same speed the frigate locks it - so it will always kill 2 frigates before they've moved 2km - therefore its only likely to get unprepared webbed by pilot inexperience in PVE (either general inexperience or inexperience with the encounter).

b - the dominix with aggressive drones will kill a frigate when it spawns, if its the first thing in the spawn to agro up - if you manage triggers such that you shot the trigger last. If it is not the first thing in the spawn to agro up, then it won't matter because a frigate that doesn't lock you up straight away, probably won't lock you for 8 seconds or so and you'll nearly be done locking it, and you'll be able to hit it when it moves.

c - the rattlesnake is the same as the domi.

d - I use a drone proteus in the maze. both the Ishtar and the proteus can be configured to tank that much damage (160k torpedo + a full sized spawn) on sig alone whilst webbed to a total standstill by 4 towers and 20 frigates. As can other hacs and T3s with various racial considerations - so whilst learning content you can make the Ishtar essentially racially indestructible and in this era, you can drop a depot to put DDAs and omnis back on when you are sure the difficult phase is over. As my proteus is moving about with covops and nullifier its hard to bring *everything* but an Ishtar doesn't do that, so should always have a few basics and the depot in cargo.

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#35 - 2014-05-06 16:59:17 UTC
The new Rattlesnake that is due this summer will only be able to use 1 Gecko.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#36 - 2014-05-06 18:29:20 UTC
the beforementioned 1190dps from that gecko go well by the 700 fury dps though.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-05-06 20:27:22 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Five Ogre IIs on today's Rattlesnake puts out 845 DPS, so the Summer Rattlesnake will do 845 * 1.41 = ~1190 DPS. Now add in summer faction drone modules for another 5% maybe, and we're up to ~1,250 DPS.

And we're looking at around 4,300 m/s in terms of speed with three Drone Nav Computer IIs.



On the down side, and CCP will burn in the flaming pits of hell for this, is that the 8% drone specialization skill won't apply. EvilEvilEvil




And to think the stratios went to 100mb/s because 5 heavy drones on a cloaky was OTT.

It's terrifying now Smile
ashley Eoner
#38 - 2014-05-06 21:00:42 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
New rattler will have 6 lows and new tracking modules for low slots. You can get 2x BCU, 2x DDA, 2x Drone TE, Omni, missile rigs and a 5 slot tank with prop mod. I think it's probably going to be okay.


1075-1240 dps, congratulations, its a navy domi with bigger tank , 94km targeting range and 84km control range

My current rattlesnake already does around 1150 dps...
ashley Eoner
#39 - 2014-05-06 21:41:37 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I believe he was talking about a complete unpiloted, afk asist bunny.

Not exactly anything but niche, far from the basis of a decent complaint.


Hardly niche.


Dualboxing level fours with one account untouched is very niche. These missions are not hard, you don't need two ships. You'd be much better off using two Rattlesnakes and running two missions at once.

Also, why would you use a BS for this at all? Use an Ishtar, it's better for this kind of strategy in literally every way.

Yeah you're WAAAY better off running two missions at the same time with snakes then two bs in the same 4.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-05-07 01:27:28 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
The new Rattlesnake that is due this summer will only be able to use 1 Gecko.


1 Gecko x 3.75 role bonus on both DPS and HP.

The new rattlesnake will have issues with range its likely to become more of a brawler not a sentry boat.

Gecko + Torps or Gecko + RHML are both looking interesting.
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