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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2081 - 2014-05-05 07:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The number for the Gecko seems high unless I'm missing a multiplier. Assuming faction DDA'a @ +25% (if we have real numbers and I missed them feel free to correct me) I'm coming up with ~860DPS.

(Damage types*(Base Damage*Damage mod)*(Drone Interfacing bonus)*(Heavy drone op bonus)*(ship bonus))/(ROF)
(4(32*2.05)(1.5)(1.25)(3.75))/4 = 461.25 DPS
461.25*1.86(approx cumulative bonus for 4 25% DDA's) = 858.134 DPS

Let me see… I think where you might be off is the skill bonuses (at least according to pyfa).

Gecko on Rattlesnake...
• 128 damage * (2.05 amplifier * 2.75 V skills * 3.75 hull * 1.875 DDAs) / 4.0s ROF
• 128 damage * (39.64) / 4.0s ROF = 1268.48 damage

If we take any hull it shows 238 dps from a pair of Ogre II's. There's a damage difference of 42.36% [ (2.05 * 128) / (2(1.92 * 48)) ] between a pair of Ogres and a single Gecko, so that means the Gecko should deal around 338.8 dps. Placed on a Rattlesnake that should give it a 3.75x multiplier or 1270.5 dps (±2-3 dps).

Addendum: On the current Rattlesnake hull I get 891 dps with 5x Ogre II's and 4x Faction DDAs (I'm using 2x Unit D-34343 and 2x T2 to approximate 4x Faction DDAs @ 25%). With 4x T2 DDAs it works out to 845 dps, so I think that the +46 dps gain (~5.1%) is probably on the realistic side.

Your 2.75 @ V skills I'd question keeping in mind drone interfacing is getting the axe and becoming a 1.5 multiplier when the RS changes hit. So it's 1.25(HDO)*1.5(DI) = 1.875. Even now it's 1.25*2 = 2.5, Where is the other .25 coming from?

I'm missing something here, not sure what. Man is it bugging me.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2082 - 2014-05-05 07:41:49 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Wait a minute,so the domi can fit two gheckos? And the ishtar, and the navy vexor.........
So the rattlesnake is getting even more of a nerf to drones?

Nope… There's a 284.7% difference between a Gecko and Ogre II. Even with a single Gecko the Rattlesnake will still do roughly 25% more drone damage.

Ishtar, Nestor (etc.)
• 2x Gecko = 8.54 effective heavy drones (2 x 1.5 x 2.847)
• 5x Ogre II = 7.5 effective heavy drones (2 x 1.5)

Rattlesnake
• 1x Gecko = 10.7 effective heavy drones (1 x 3.75 x 2.847)
• 2x Ogre II = 7.5 effective heavy drones (2 x 3.75)



How about, If we are making a heavy bruiser of a battleship that uses drones, as a pirate ship we give it the same Bonus as the bonuses to heavy and sentries as the ishtar ( plus superdrone size adjustment bonus) instead of some of the missile bonus?

So a tanky bruising ishtar, what's not to like?

It IS meant to be a pirate vessel.Twisted


You just turned it into a tanky shield domi again that has fewer options than the one we are getting.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#2083 - 2014-05-05 07:45:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


You just turned it into a tanky shield domi again that has fewer options than the one we are getting.


if ccp didn't want that the gila would have 5 launchers too instead

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2084 - 2014-05-05 07:48:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Your 2.75 @ V skills I'd question keeping in mind drone interfacing is getting the axe and becoming a 1.5 multiplier when the RS changes hit. So it's 1.25(HDO)*1.5(DI) = 1.875. Even now it's 1.25*2 = 2.5, Where is the other .25 coming from?

What do you get for dps in EFT when you put this configuration into the current Rattlesnake: 5x Ogre II's, V skills, 4x T2 DDA's. I'm using pyfa and it's spitting out 845 dps.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2085 - 2014-05-05 07:49:54 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


You just turned it into a tanky shield domi again that has fewer options than the one we are getting.


if ccp didn't want that the gila would have 5 launchers too instead


Gila isnt a rattle.

The missile bonus give a lot more options.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2086 - 2014-05-05 08:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Your 2.75 @ V skills I'd question keeping in mind drone interfacing is getting the axe and becoming a 1.5 multiplier when the RS changes hit. So it's 1.25(HDO)*1.5(DI) = 1.875. Even now it's 1.25*2 = 2.5, Where is the other .25 coming from?

What do you get for dps in EFT when you put this configuration into the current Rattlesnake: 5x Ogre II's, V skills, 4x T2 DDA's. I'm using pyfa and it's spitting out 845 dps.

Woot figured it out! Racial drone specs. These aren't T2 so I did the math as them not getting the 10% from the specs. That explains the bonus difference.

To answer your question: 845DPS.

Looking at this further, unless the gecko numbers are being reworked to account for the skill changes the gecko may not be as awesome in the damage output department as first thought.

Post expansion base damages:
Ogre II: 64 * 1.92 = 122.88
Gecko (assuming same numbers post expansion): 32 * 4 * 2.05 = 262.4
2x Ogre II = 245.76

If the gecko doesn't take bonuses from racial drone skills, which logically I would think it wouldn't, it falls behind a pair of Ogre II's at max skills.

Edit: Correcting error in statements and spelling.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2087 - 2014-05-05 08:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Woot figured it out! Racial drone specs. These aren't T2 so I did the math as them not getting the 10% from the specs. That explains the bonus difference. To answer your question: 845DPS.

Ah, that makes total sense - my bad (thanks for catching it).

Quote:
Looking at this further, unless the gecko numbers are being reworked to account for the skill changes the gecko may not be as awesome in the damage output department as first thought.

Without the racial bonus (and I agree with your assessment) pyfa is saying it's only a 2.5x multiplier:

1x Gecko … 128 damage * (2.05 * 2.5 V skills * 3.75 hull * 1.875 DDAs) / 4.0s ROF = 1153.1 dps
2x Ogre II … 96 damage * (1.92 * 2.75 V skills * 3.75 hull * 1.875 DDAs) / 4.0s ROF = 891 dps

See anything out-of-whack?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2088 - 2014-05-05 08:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Woot figured it out! Racial drone specs. These aren't T2 so I did the math as them not getting the 10% from the specs. That explains the bonus difference. To answer your question: 845DPS.

Ah, that makes total sense - my bad (thanks for catching it).

Quote:
Looking at this further, unless the gecko numbers are being reworked to account for the skill changes the gecko may not be as awesome in the damage output department as first thought.

Without the racial bonus (and I agree with your assessment) pyfa is saying it's only a 2.5x multiplier:

1x Gecko … 128 damage * (2.05 * 2.5 V skills * 3.75 hull * 1.875 DDAs) / 4.0s ROF = 1153.1 dps
2x Ogre II … 96 damage * (1.92 * 2.75 V skills * 3.75 hull * 1.875 DDAs) / 4.0s ROF = 891 dps

See anything out-of-whack?

Pre expansion that looks right, post expansion I hope the base damage on the gecko gets a similar buff to the Ogre II.

Also I should point out that my prior 850 gecko DPS number was using post summer expansion skill modifiers, hence the difference between that and what you list above.

Edit: It should be noted that prior to the summer expansion, when those numbers will need to be updated to reflect drone and drone skill changes, no ship can field 3.75 effective geckos.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2089 - 2014-05-05 09:17:00 UTC
Removed some off topic posts and some personal attacks. Please keep it civil and on topic. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2090 - 2014-05-05 11:34:48 UTC
what does the super drone bonus do to drone shield recharge??

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2091 - 2014-05-05 11:39:21 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
what does the super drone bonus do to drone shield recharge??


Recharge amount per second increases as total HP increases but recharge time stays the same.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2092 - 2014-05-05 11:48:58 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
what does the super drone bonus do to drone shield recharge??

Using Navy Wasps, starting shield regen is about 4/s, after skills it is 5/s, this brings it up to 18.7/s

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2093 - 2014-05-05 11:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
what does the super drone bonus do to drone shield recharge??


Recharge amount per second increases as total HP increases but recharge time stays the same.



i thought so, but since the drone shield recharge was recently balanced, this seems to make heavyes pretty tanky again lol.

Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
what does the super drone bonus do to drone shield recharge??

Using Navy Wasps, starting shield regen is about 4/s, after skills it is 5/s, this brings it up to 18.7/s


yeah this

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2094 - 2014-05-05 13:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I see we're back to this again… (sigh)
It's high time to bury the light and medium drone argument because there was ample head's up that the Rattlesnake would be restricted to 2 drones based on both the Worm and Gila.

• Old Worm: 5 light drones * 1.5 = 7.5 effective light drones
• New Worm: 2 light "Hero" drones * 4.0 = 8.0 effective light drones

• Old Gila: 5 medium drones * 1.5 = 7.5 effective medium drones
• New Gila: 2 medium "Hero" drones * 6.0 = 12 effective medium drones

• Old Rattlesnake: 5 heavy drones * 1.5 = 7.5 effective heavy drones
• Old Rattlesnake: 2 heavy Geckos * 2 * 1.5 * 1.42 = 8.52 effective heavy drones
• New Rattlesnake: 2 heavy drones * 3.75 = 7.5 effective heavy drones
• New Rattlesnake: 1 heavy Gecko * 2 * 3.75 * 1.42 = 10.65 effective heady drones

To capitalize on the role bonus the new Rattlesnake clearly needs to run a Gecko, so I think that it's a valid argument that there's no comparable drone damage increase between the old and new Rattlesnake using standard heavy drones (especially since Geckos are apparently limited in availability -at least initially, anyway).

Sorry, wasn't quite finished editing.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2095 - 2014-05-05 14:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I see we're back to this again… (sigh)
It's high time to bury the light and medium drone argument because there was ample head's up that the Rattlesnake would be restricted to 2 drones based on both the Worm and Gila.

• Old Worm: 5 light drones * 1.5 = 7.5 effective light drones
• New Worm: 2 light "Hero" drones * 4.0 = 8.0 effective light drones

• Old Gila: 5 medium drones * 1.5 = 7.5 effective medium drones
• New Gila: 2 medium "Hero" drones * 6.0 = 12 effective medium drones

• Old Rattlesnake: 5 heavy drones * 1.5 = 7.5 effective heavy drones
• Old Rattlesnake: 2 heavy Geckos * 2 * 1.5 * 1.42 = 8.52 effective heavy drones
• New Rattlesnake: 2 heavy drones * 3.75 = 7.5 effective heavy drones
• New Rattlesnake: 1 heavy Gecko * 2 * 3.75 * 1.42 = 10.65 effective heady drones

To capitalize on the role bonus the new Rattlesnake clearly needs to run a Gecko.


Yes, that is where the rattlesnake should be in terms of DPS to heavies.
And get the ishtar heavy bonus so it can actually work.
Or is the gecko actually a heavy in terms of application with the ishtar bonus built in?


Rather than rely on rare drones, would this not make more sense?
37.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking and 50% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage (even if limited to two drones) As a role bonus and move CCP rises fix to a special or ship bonus to take that one can only fit two drones into account?

I think we are coming at the same solution from different directions. If heavies become useful, that will be really healthy.
As an alternative, something completely different, why not give Ogres on the Rattlesnake the power and FULL stats of the Ghecko?

That would solve all the Heavy problems in one go? Possibly? What do you think? You are looking in detail at the numbers.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2096 - 2014-05-05 14:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I think to put the drone bonus on the Rattlesnake in-line with the Worm and Gila it needs to be increased.

• Old Rattlesnake: 5 heavy drones * 1.5 = 7.5 effective heavy drones
• Old Rattlesnake: 2 heavy Geckos * 2 * 1.5 * 1.42 = 8.52 effective heavy drones

• New Rattlesnake: 2 heavy drones * 3.75 = 7.5 effective heavy drones
• New Rattlesnake: 1 heavy Gecko * 2 * 3.75 * 1.42 = 10.65 effective heady drones

• Proposed Rattlesnake: 2 heavy drones * 5.0 = 10.0 effective heavy drones (+400% bonus)
• Proposed Rattlesnake: 1 heavy Gecko * 2 * 5 * 1.42 = 14.2 effective heavy drones (+400% bonus)

I would also be cool with:

• Alternate Rattlesnake: 4 heavy drones * 2.75 = 11.0 effective heavy drones (+175% bonus)
• Alternate Rattlesnake: 2 heavy Geckos * 2 * 2.75 * 1.42 = 15.6 effective heavy drones (+175% bonus)

Or, has been suggested - include a +275% velocity bonus to heavy drones as well.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2097 - 2014-05-05 14:15:11 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I think to put the drone bonus on the Rattlesnake in-line with the Worm and Gila it needs to be increased.

• Old Rattlesnake: 5 heavy drones * 1.5 = 7.5 effective heavy drones
• Old Rattlesnake: 2 heavy Geckos * 2 * 1.5 * 1.42 = 8.52 effective heavy drones

• New Rattlesnake: 2 heavy drones * 3.75 = 7.5 effective heavy drones
• New Rattlesnake: 1 heavy Gecko * 2 * 3.75 * 1.42 = 10.65 effective heady drones

• Proposed Rattlesnake: 2 heavy drones * 5.0 = 10.0 effective heavy drones (+400% bonus)
• Proposed Rattlesnake: 1 heavy Gecko * 2 * 5 * 1.42 = 14.2 effective heavy drones (+400% bonus)

I would also be cool with:

• Alternate Rattlesnake: 4 heavy drones * 2.75 = 11.0 effective heavy drones (+175% bonus)
• Alternate Rattlesnake: 2 heavy Geckos * 2 * 2.75 * 1.42 = 15.6 effective heavy drones (+175% bonus)

Or, has been suggested - include a +275% velocity bonus to heavy drones as well.



Do not forget tracking.

But yes, yes, yes!

Please work it into a bonus format that can be implemented by CCP rise, now you have the numbers to back that up. He is incredibly busy at the moment. Hopefully he will implement this! Great solution! Nicely done.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2098 - 2014-05-05 14:20:40 UTC
RATTLESNAKE
Gallente Battleship Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 275% bonus to heavy drone damage, velocity and tracking

So why not just eliminate the sentry drone bonus and expand on the heavy drone bonus? Don't we already have enough hulls that really cover sentry drones and do a more effective job?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#2099 - 2014-05-05 14:28:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Last Wolf
Now that we are actually getting a dedicated Missile pirate line-up, I wouldn't be opposed to the Gurista line-up becoming more dedicated drone ships instead of the current missile/drone hybrid.

Something like
RATTLESNAKE
6 highs, 6 launchers/6 turrets

Gallente:
10% drone tracking/optimal/speed per level

Caldari :
4% shield resists per level

ROLE
350% drone damage/hitpoints
note : all drones launched from this ship use 5mbit bandwith

Bandwith : 10 mbit
drone bay : 200m3

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2100 - 2014-05-05 14:28:21 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
RATTLESNAKE
Gallente Battleship Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Caldari Battleship Bonus: 4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus: 275% bonus to heavy drone damage, velocity and tracking

So why not just eliminate the sentry drone bonus and expand on the heavy drone bonus? Don't we already have enough hulls that really cover sentry drones and do a more effective job?


Because that would make the Gecko unbelievably obscene.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.