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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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Marsan
#661 - 2014-05-04 17:19:35 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Furoth wrote:
Firvain wrote:
Or the small guys move to where the big guys are producing and reaping the same benefit for none of the cost. Looks pretty valid to me


And yet I still doubt you will open your outposts to the public hoping to attract all that industry.

well, that depends on if you've got a security deposit ready and can pass the background check


Why would a corp wanting to do industry in an outpost need a security deposit? Honestly from most NS alliance I'd want a deposit held by a 3rd party that the alliance wouldn't lock me out the outpost. Goons more than most.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Atomic Option
NO Tax FAT Stacks
#662 - 2014-05-04 18:24:08 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Atomic Option wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
wall of text .


Optimizing towards boredom is not a good design direction, no matter how much you want it.


One thing that has kept me out of industry in EVE has been boredom. In most games you can always be doing something towards whatever your goal is. (e.g. kill another monster towards the xp for the next level). In contrast, with EVE industry you put in as many jobs as you have money/materials for and then you just wait around. There's nothing else you can be busy doing towards that goal. This may not be an issue for established industrialists who are running 400 jobs, but it's a huge issue for industry newbies.

I'm not sure how best to address this, but there it is...


I also do PI, mine, run exploration/combat anomalies and now invent too. there's lots of things to do whilst running jobs, you just need to go out and find them...


There's lots of OTHER things to do, but you can't do anything towards finishing the task itself. :/
Hirogenale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#663 - 2014-05-04 19:27:17 UTC
One of the problems i see with the ME-Boni overall (not only on the teams) is simply, that the boni are significantly higher than the average profitmargin of most products, resulting in making it impossible to small industrialists to actually make profit if some big alliances choose to monopolize it, or access to the boni is made impossible becouse of some other reasons.
PE-boni are less of a problem, the profit margin can get close to 0 but never actually reach it, ME boni that high in comparison could crush the market. (As seen with the few T2 BPO's that can sattisfy theyr market)

(additional workforce costs would have to be astronomical in comparison to default cost to even remotely make up for that and in that case what was the point of getting the bonus in the first place?)
Ginger Barbarella
#664 - 2014-05-04 20:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginger Barbarella
Firvain wrote:
[quote=Furoth]
The combined pocket of 20 people is alot bigger then the pockets of 5


And anyone who's spent ANY time in industry in this game knows full well that industrialists in high sec have a severe phobia (or are overly cautious) to forming industrial alliances, unlike typical combat alliances. Those 20 people combining wallets will never happen in high sec. CCP clearly knows this, and is using this as another high sec industry nerf against high sec's own industrials.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#665 - 2014-05-04 22:01:11 UTC
Hirogenale wrote:
One of the problems i see with the ME-Boni overall (not only on the teams) is simply, that the boni are significantly higher than the average profitmargin of most products, resulting in making it impossible to small industrialists to actually make profit if some big alliances choose to monopolize it, or access to the boni is made impossible becouse of some other reasons.
PE-boni are less of a problem, the profit margin can get close to 0 but never actually reach it, ME boni that high in comparison could crush the market. (As seen with the few T2 BPO's that can sattisfy theyr market)

(additional workforce costs would have to be astronomical in comparison to default cost to even remotely make up for that and in that case what was the point of getting the bonus in the first place?)




Yes, and?


The small industrialist should always be trampled by the one willing to throw oodles of money at the problem. Don't like it? Bleed em.
token trade alt
Slamming Mad B-Balls
#666 - 2014-05-04 22:58:11 UTC
So I can continue to do my usual thing and if an opportunity presents itself at a nearby solar system, move stuff there? Okay, that's fine by me.

What's everyone whining about?
Mikami Ibitsu
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#667 - 2014-05-05 00:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mikami Ibitsu
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
I'm afraid I lost the post but someone made a good point in that the winning bidder should be able to access the team at base cost. This seems fair, but with bids piling up I would suggest the highest bidder among the system take the cake - Although then you might have to make a system to determine who's bidding what in what system, which has its own potential problems. To solve this you could make the "base" labor/build cost available to anyone who contributed at least a certain % of the pot (i.e. 5%). This would prevent people from "0.01isking" in order to get access to the lower (lower) build cost, but without contributing anything.



Of course, it remains to be seen how, if at all, players will need to be incentivized regarding bidding on teams. Personally I plan on bidding on day 1, but I have no idea how my price point compares to others - and would rather not share that information.


This is one of things we'll be monitoring very close after this goes live, as it is one of the biggest uncertainties. We did look into options to reward the bidder (after the CSM raised this issue). Unfortunately, there is no clean, elegant way to do it that either doesn't complicate the system a bunch or allows for weird exploits. So any good suggestions on this are welcome Smile

Of course, if freeloading turns out to be stifling the system too much, we will have to bite the bullet on complicating the system to counter it, but we want to avoid it if possible.


Maybe something like a commutative team bidding systemwide.
For example:
----------> Team "Slave" Auction<--------------

Time (t1): -> 5 bidders for system X; total 300m isk || 9 bidders for system Y; total 340m isk;Winning System = Y
" (t2): -> 7 bidders for system X; total 350m isk || 10 bidders for system Y; total 345m isk;Winning system = X
" (tx): -> X bidders for system X; total 500misk || Y bidders for system Y; total 550m isk; Wiining System = Y
Auction time limit for bidding finishes.

* All isk in escrow is then averaged and shared by bidders of system Y *

--------> Auction for Team "Slave" is closed <------------

So, if there were 35 bidders in system Y by the time the auction closes then each receives 15.7m isk, no brainer simple average.
This can turn out to be fair only if the isk increments in an auction is fairly sized and not 0.01 trolling. This will also prevent huge isk grabs by overlords because if more bidders join in they get cut on the escrow.
So overlords must thread lightly not to make huge bids at first. As a consequence, smaller industrialists will have opportunities to bid so it becomes self balancing.
If it still poses a problem, a little more complicated formula will be needed to balance the end isk spectrum of the auction itself.
Hope this helps.

EDIT: As minimum bids are a problem, something like a % of the total in the escrow of the bidding system.
Example, for bidders of system X at time t2 the minimum bid could be a % of the total 350m.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#668 - 2014-05-05 00:56:48 UTC
Marsan wrote:

Why would a corp wanting to do industry in an outpost need a security deposit? Honestly from most NS alliance I'd want a deposit held by a 3rd party that the alliance wouldn't lock me out the outpost. Goons more than most.

it's quite simple: when you have blue standings you can awox people and cause trouble until you're expelled. this is a well known and common problem in null alliances, and the security deposit is an elegant solution: it's held for a few weeks and generally covers the amount of damage you could do before we reacted and is used to compensate any victims. if you don't awox (and generally, awoxers are impatient) within a few weeks it's refunded.

it's really as much for your benefit as ours, as you can then be sure if the guy next to you goes rogue you're protected.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Richard Lohengrin
Citadel Space Exploration Agency
#669 - 2014-05-05 07:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Lohengrin
Quote:

We're not exactly sure how you capsuleers were able to build things without one before!


Robotic Assemblers! I wonder - How the shiny future turns into dark medival. For many years we was some kind of superhumans, able to connect our minds to any lab or manufacture and build stuff. And now we need a crowd of poor villeins to build anything. Or a crowd of poor villeins on heavy drugs, who are ok to roast their brains just to made someone able to build some t1 trash a little faster.
In the same time, those poor people are able to spawn deep in the unsettled wormhole. Like a peasant from our russian fairy tale about two army generals.
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
#670 - 2014-05-05 11:45:12 UTC
Looking at the bigger picture of industry in EVE, I feel that Teams do not really fit. It is a nice enough idea, but one that I would not have thought would actually be added to the game. Granted, industry needed an overhaul - but the Teams feature seems rushed and unbalanced. It adds an unnecessary level of complexity that does not match the goal of making industry more accessible.

I always loved the fact that you can find a nice little corner in space to base your industry efforts at, as far out of the regular shipping lanes as you wished - with the cost of added logistics of course. From what I read so far, you will have to move your industry operations to the most effective systems if you want to stay competitive on the market. Additionally, good systems will likely get overcrowded in time, forcing you yet again to move your operations for competitivity's sake.

In essence, Teams will likely add more costs and more work without adding any meaningful gameplay.

I wonder what the core idea was behind the feature? It sounds like a way to boost hub systems more than anything else, which in my opinion is detrimental to the game's diversity.

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com
token trade alt
Slamming Mad B-Balls
#671 - 2014-05-05 12:40:24 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
Quote:

We're not exactly sure how you capsuleers were able to build things without one before!


Robotic Assemblers! I wonder - How the shiny future turns into dark medival. For many years we was some kind of superhumans, able to connect our minds to any lab or manufacture and build stuff. And now we need a crowd of poor villeins to build anything. Or a crowd of poor villeins on heavy drugs, who are ok to roast their brains just to made someone able to build some t1 trash a little faster.
In the same time, those poor people are able to spawn deep in the unsettled wormhole. Like a peasant from our russian fairy tale about two army generals.


Well it's not like these four dudes are the ones building everything in the system. I think it would make more sense to think of them as finding or knowing better production/research methods for specific items. The robotic assemblers are still being used, these guys just use them more effectively.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#672 - 2014-05-05 12:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
AeonOfTime wrote:


I wonder what the core idea was behind the feature? It sounds like a way to boost hub systems more than anything else, which in my opinion is detrimental to the game's diversity.



Hub systems will likely benefit less since lots of industrialists will move there for the hope of better teams and shorter transport costs thus pushing up the work costs on the jobs themselves. The real benefit (intentionally or not: Depends on whether you've trained Conspiracy Theory to V) will be to the main nullsec groups who can control exactly who builds what at their outposts and when. They will be able to buy the best team of each category, optimize the build run for the most appropriate goods (DC II keeps being mentioned) then build a whole truckload of them faster and more cheaply (of look, mining ore buff *and* refinery boost...isn't that just grand). once that market is cornered they build something else the next month.

The null folks will cry out that fuel prices are rising and oh woe, the logistics! However...they already have the logistics in place so this won't change, fuel costs will go up but so what? Corner the market and you drive the competitors out of the business...then set the price to whatever you choose. This is effectively handing all the choice industry to nullsec as nobody else will be able to compete with them on the choice big ticket easy transportable goods.

Edit: I forgot to add that of course as null becomes the only region where you can make real profit then trade hubs will grow there, oooh now the fuel costs are irrelevant too...
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#673 - 2014-05-05 14:01:07 UTC
This new teams mechanic adds unneccesary complexity to the game and replaces the existing sandbox landscaping by a mechanism on its own that's disconnected from the rest of the Eve sandbox.
There is no need to add complexity in order to 'introduce' landscaping. Landscaping is already present and very effective according to the dev blog about pricing industry jobs. Although many factors influence manufacturing, the main production centers seem to be close to trade hubs and in the more secure parts of space.
The teams mechanism stands on its own, disconnected from the rest of Eve while the existing landscaping is the result of 'the sandbox'.
For some reason CCP decides to remove the hard cap on manufacturing provided by industry slots. This was the existing mechnism to spread manufacturing. But it wasn't effective enough. And then they also decided that manufacturing should be more expensive. So they came up with the idea to replace the hard cap by a pricing mechanism. That would have worked if they hadn't decided to make this mechanism so strong that the existing landscaping mechanisms lost much of its relevance.
The solution:
- scrap the teams nonsense
- weaken the mechanism for spreading the population (e.g. by removing the sqrt and/or remove the 10% tax in the pricing mechanism (possibly increase the advantages given to player outposts to compensate))
- possibly strengthen the sandbox by giving players better tools to secure themselves in hisec (at the expense of concord/faction police) or by letting players influence system security rating
Richard Lohengrin
Citadel Space Exploration Agency
#674 - 2014-05-05 14:02:21 UTC
token trade alt wrote:

Well it's not like these four dudes are the ones building everything in the system. I think it would make more sense to think of them as finding or knowing better production/research methods for specific items. The robotic assemblers are still being used, these guys just use them more effectively.


Ok. So what the reason for the capsuleer to learn a lot of skills if he's able just to hire few incredibly "talented" acid-powered-freaks? For now long all scientific and industrial activity was provided only by a single person - your character, a post-human with fantastic abilities, augmented mind and with soul able to leave the current body to occupy new one.
And what now? You're not a post-humans anymore, you're just another sort of regular people.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#675 - 2014-05-05 17:34:43 UTC
Richard Lohengrin wrote:
token trade alt wrote:

Well it's not like these four dudes are the ones building everything in the system. I think it would make more sense to think of them as finding or knowing better production/research methods for specific items. The robotic assemblers are still being used, these guys just use them more effectively.


Ok. So what the reason for the capsuleer to learn a lot of skills if he's able just to hire few incredibly "talented" acid-powered-freaks? For now long all scientific and industrial activity was provided only by a single person - your character, a post-human with fantastic abilities, augmented mind and with soul able to leave the current body to occupy new one.
And what now? You're not a post-humans anymore, you're just another sort of regular people.


I think that the capsuleers were always the focus point, the research manager, production manager etc. You always used other people but they worked from you instructions. In research terms the researchers reported to you then followed the next avenue of investigation proposed by you. Invention would be your character submitting jobs to automated systems supported by techies to keep them running, manufacture is like a hyper advanced version of a modern car plant with automation doing the physical work and more techies managing the robots.
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#676 - 2014-05-05 18:00:04 UTC
My take on the update is that it was going to be about bringing a sort of elasticity to the overall industrial effort were costs drove players to seek out places away from other players to build things but teams would be the glue to keep them together.

I really thought teams would be about the cooperative effort of players working together. A way that players could overcome some of the costs in a given system, a reason to have a corporation or alliance effort in production that went beyond the just putting together things for each member to sell.

As it stands I am part of a player team of three different players and a few alts who do production in a larger corporation. We work together to make a product, sharing the buying, researching, inventing, manufacture, and selling of said product. What teams means to me is simply taking manufacturing to a new level where by several of us add our "slots" together we can reduce costs, or produce faster. For example member A has ten production slots, member B has 7. What if member A and Member B could both produce one item and get some sort of bonus to produce it either materially or time wise because they were each devoting one production slot to a single item. That is a team. That is a dynamic that builds groups and brings players together.

It had nothing to do with NPCs.

My two cents.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#677 - 2014-05-06 14:45:43 UTC
How will this effect planetary conquest bonuses?
Shinya Shazih
Markarian Society
#678 - 2014-05-07 13:41:52 UTC
Mal Nina wrote:

I really thought teams would be about the cooperative effort of players working together. A way that players could overcome some of the costs in a given system, a reason to have a corporation or alliance effort in production that went beyond the just putting together things for each member to sell.

As it stands I am part of a player team of three different players and a few alts who do production in a larger corporation. We work together to make a product, sharing the buying, researching, inventing, manufacture, and selling of said product. What teams means to me is simply taking manufacturing to a new level where by several of us add our "slots" together we can reduce costs, or produce faster. For example member A has ten production slots, member B has 7. What if member A and Member B could both produce one item and get some sort of bonus to produce it either materially or time wise because they were each devoting one production slot to a single item. That is a team. That is a dynamic that builds groups and brings players together.

It had nothing to do with NPCs.


What she said. +1
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#679 - 2014-05-08 04:01:39 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Kendra Zane wrote:
It sounds like a reasonable idea but I'm concerned that most of the teams will end up in the same few systems because of the concentration of industry happening there and the easier spread of costs.

I do like the idea of team creation being a PI activity.

How many teams can be active in a system at once? How many active over the whole of New Eden? How often do they "spawn"?

EDIT: This all feels a little too dynamic. Industry doesn't like moving around so it wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with a mostly similar cost for building the same thing, be it in a busy or empty system.


The total number of teams is determined by how fast they are seeded. We will adjust this number based on usage and on how many different teams we have (for instance the seeding will speed up when we add invention teams). Currently it is around six teams per hour.

So bottom line seems to be. Empire industry just got a massive boost to building cheaper than Lowsec or Nulsec where industry is not done in 1 or 2 major systems.
200 Empire builders in 1 system will be able to employ Npc teams at next to nothing compared to nulsec or lowsec where you are never going to have 200 indy players in 1 place.

Unlimited teams in 1 system also favours Empire as 200 people bidding for different teams cuts supply for everyone outside that system while continually reducing costs and improving efficiency in limited systems. This could also allow the larger builders to manipulate prices further by bidding for teams regularly, ensuring supply is limited outside the system they operate in.

It seems the guy with a few researched Rig Bpo's that collects his own materials and builds rigs in a quiet little station in lowsec just became pretty inefficient and priced out of the market.

People with higher valued BPO's will not move them from place to place to save a few isk for a month - Risk vs Reward takes moving high value BPO's out of every equation.
I just don't see that Reward (save a few million isk) could outway Risk (losing 20 bil in BPO's) here.
So you end up with static build hubs in favourable systems and nothing everywhere else. Not much point having over 6,700 non WH systems if your plan is to force the major workforce into an area limited by "best outcome".

You have taken what was a (not ideal but worked) set of parameters to build or research and added so many more layers of requirements, without all parameters being optimized, industry as a whole just became 100 times more complicated and for a lot of smaller indy guys (not living in or near highsec hubs), it may just, not be worth the effort.

The blog mentions specialized teams :- (ship - frigate) (ship - small class) - How many different types of teams are being added to the already numerous other requirements to achieve optimal output?
Taking into account, not everyone builds the same thing, how many teams are expected to be in any given system?

I would say, if your plan was to over complicate the way everything is made - this is an overwhelming success.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Marcus Iunius Brutus
Hoborg Labs
#680 - 2014-05-08 09:23:07 UTC
I'm really curious if the upcoming changes will create an industry landscape of specialized production hubs.

If bringing teams to a system with good infrastructure (>5 factories) could outweight penatlies due to higher percentage of goods build there, probably the min/max solution for producers could be to specialize in one type of production and move to a system where others build similar goods so there is much better chance to win auction for the proper teams.
On the other hand, producers of other goods in mentioned system would benefit more by moving to a system that has the teams that they wish to use and in the next cycle they could help win auction for the needed teams so they can stay and profit.