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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2021 - 2014-05-04 13:10:35 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Yes, it does look like heavy missiles will suit this boat best, whether rapid heavy or just heavy will depend on whether one needs to front load damage.

So we really need to look at how much damage heavy missiles apply, when setting overall balance.

Let's see if I get the stats right this time, using EFT on an Armageddon with tripple rigor 2 CNBCU, all V, no impant, multiplying the damage by half...

HML : 287 CPU, 474.5 PG, 336 / 250 dps, 6.72 sec RoF, 40 ammo
RHML : 304 CPU, 5548 PG, 544(805) / 403 (597) dps, 2.9 RoF, 25 ammo (empty in 72.5 seconds)
Cruise : 334 CPU, 6810 PG, 500 dps T1, 700 with Fury. 9.26 RoF, 27 ammo

Standard Heavy : 61 Exp Rad, 121 Ex Vel, 6450 m/s, 9.75 Flight time, 63 km range
Fury Heavy : 104m, 102m/s, 6450m/s, 7.32sec, 47 km
Standard Cruise : 143m , 103m/s, 7050 m/s, 21 sec , 148 km
Fury Cruise : 245m, 87m/s, 7050 m/s, 15.75 sec, 111 km

Cruise pro: Excellent range. Good damage against BC+ with a TP at all ranges.
Cruise con: Bad application against incoming cruisers and slower, the tightest to fit.

HM pro : Easiest to fit, easy to swap ammo from Precision to Fury.
HM con : Raw damage is the worst, low range.

RHML pro : Dps and application inside 47km good.
RHML con : Ammo swap not that feasable. Charges depleted really fast, 3-4 missiles in space at a time, price with T2 not quite ignorable. Low range.

Now that's something to ponder on.
And the Sentries are getting changed as well...

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#2022 - 2014-05-04 13:37:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Truthfully, what has been gained by removing the bonus to light and medium drones anyway? Was the Rattlesnake regarded as overpowered and a drone murder platform? The one ship that desperately needed a buff got shot in the face with the rebalance , (or was it shot in the foot?)


Today I learned that getting a 50% missile damage bonus counts as "shot in the face".

It gained double it's present missile dps. That's what has been gained. Crusade all you like, but you are not getting back light or medium drones any more than the Gila is getting back sentries.

Once again, it is unfortunate that one disregards what others say, and picks on a nice soundbyte.
I will never change your opinion, and am not trying to.


You asked a question.

I answered it.

What we gained from losing light and medium drones bonuses was a massive increase in missile damage, across any size missiles.



what you fail to comprehend was that the DPS increase needed to bring the Rattlesnake in line need not come at the cost of bonuses on light and medium drones or 400m3 drone bay. You ridiculous no lifers still can't seem to figure that out for some reason.

Besides, people trained for the Rattlesnake to use primarily drones. Not missiles. These changes are really senseless, as are its supporters.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
stoicfaux
#2023 - 2014-05-04 14:33:38 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:

HML : 287 CPU, 474.5 PG, 336 / 250 dps, 6.72 sec RoF, 40 ammo
RHML : 304 CPU, 5548 PG, 544(805) / 403 (597) dps, 2.9 RoF, 25 ammo (empty in 72.5 seconds)
Cruise : 334 CPU, 6810 PG, 500 dps T1, 700 with Fury. 9.26 RoF, 27 ammo

Standard Heavy : 61 Exp Rad, 121 Ex Vel, 6450 m/s, 9.75 Flight time, 63 km range
Fury Heavy : 104m, 102m/s, 6450m/s, 7.32sec, 47 km
Standard Cruise : 143m , 103m/s, 7050 m/s, 21 sec , 148 km
Fury Cruise : 245m, 87m/s, 7050 m/s, 15.75 sec, 111 km


Rigs make a difference. With 3xRigors, T1 cruise missiles have better damage application than non-Rigored Fury Heavies (e.g. you're using missile range rigs with the RHMLs,) so you will normally be better off with T1 cruise unless you really need the the front loaded DPS or plan on shooting a lot of frigates. Plus, you still have the option of using Fury cruise.

On a side note, you can use the current Rattlesnake in EFT to check fitting. A DLAII in the high uses 2.3 less CPU than a T2 cruise launcher so you can the DLA as a placeholder for the 5th launcher. And multiply missile damage by 7.5 / 4 = 1.875.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2024 - 2014-05-04 14:38:15 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:

Besides, people trained for the Rattlesnake to use primarily drones. Not missiles. These changes are really senseless, as are its supporters.


No one gives a damn what you trained it for.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#2025 - 2014-05-04 14:59:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:

Besides, people trained for the Rattlesnake to use primarily drones. Not missiles. These changes are really senseless, as are its supporters.


No one gives a damn what you trained it for.


CCP does if they want to keep their customers. These are very drastic changes to ships that take a very long time to train for. Only idiots would think it is okay to disregard the wishes of their customers when it comes to ships like these.

No one gives a damn what you think.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2026 - 2014-05-04 15:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
stoicfaux wrote:
Rigs make a difference. With 3xRigors, T1 cruise missiles have better damage application than non-Rigored Fury Heavies (e.g. you're using missile range rigs with the RHMLs,) so you will normally be better off with T1 cruise unless you really need the the front loaded DPS or plan on shooting a lot of frigates.

Used an Apoc to have 5 unbonused missiles, Rattler would have made cruise go faster.

Those numbers were with Rigors for each of them.

I don't really plan to shoot frigates with missiles at all, it's non-orbiting cruisers that make me hesitate, some get more than half the dps of speedtanked even with rigors and TPs helping me.
About all of 400 dps (after reload, almost 600 without) from normal HMs launched from a RHML against half of the 500 dps of the Cruise...

Cruise is probably still the way to go.
Or I can swap based on the ratio of Cruisers against Battleships in the mission.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Tam Karyon
Seikai no Monsho
#2027 - 2014-05-04 15:08:07 UTC
RATTLESNAKE

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
275% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Cruise missile and Torpedo max velocity)


Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 6L; 0 turrets, 5 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 10000 PWG, 710 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 12750 / 8940(-358) / 9960
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 5350(+38) / 1154000ms / 4.59
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .128 / 99300000 / 18.45s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 175(-225)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 30
Signature radius: 450(-10)


___________________________________________________________________________

yes you got new role bonus 275# to heavy and sentry, but

see this, clearly ---- Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 175(-225)
you can only use 2 heavies and sentries
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2028 - 2014-05-04 15:52:32 UTC
Tam Karyon wrote:
yes you got new role bonus 275# to heavy and sentry, but

see this, clearly ---- Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 175(-225)
you can only use 2 heavies and sentries

I most sincerely hope everyone posting was aware of that.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2029 - 2014-05-04 16:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Rigs make a difference. With 3xRigors, T1 cruise missiles have better damage application than non-Rigored Fury Heavies (e.g. you're using missile range rigs with the RHMLs,) so you will normally be better off with T1 cruise unless you really need the the front loaded DPS or plan on shooting a lot of frigates.

Used an Apoc to have 5 unbonused missiles, Rattler would have made cruise go faster.

Those numbers were with Rigors for each of them.

I don't really plan to shoot frigates with missiles at all, it's non-orbiting cruisers that make me hesitate, some get more than half the dps of speedtanked even with rigors and TPs helping me.
About all of 400 dps (after reload, almost 600 without) from normal HMs launched from a RHML against half of the 500 dps of the Cruise...

Cruise is probably still the way to go.
Or I can swap based on the ratio of Cruisers against Battleships in the mission.


Hmmph, with my noob knowledge of missiles eft sez 425 dps on 4 fury cruises with 1 tp, 1 rigor II , 1 flare I (to leave room for one control range II), 8 and 9 +5 % slot implants and 3% crash maxed on a 340 sig 161m/s bs approaching, 211dps on 350m/s.

Am I on the right track or completely off?
stoicfaux
#2030 - 2014-05-04 16:46:38 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Tam Karyon wrote:
yes you got new role bonus 275# to heavy and sentry, but

see this, clearly ---- Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-75) / 175(-225)
you can only use 2 heavies and sentries

I most sincerely hope everyone posting was aware of that.

2 drones * 3.75 drone bonus = 7.5 effective drones. Current Rattlesnake can field 5 drones * 1.5 drone bonus = 7.5 effective drones.

Yes, we're aware.

Are you aware that we're also a bit cranky that the Rattlesnake's "super-drones" are just "normal" super as opposed to super-duper like the Gila's 2 medium drones being 12 effective medium drones? Shocked

At this point, we're all trying to figure out what the Summer Rattesnake is going to be great at. And we're sure it has to be really good at something because it's a pirate ship with a huge missile bonus and super-drones! Can I get an Amen!?!

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2031 - 2014-05-04 16:57:42 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
At this point, we're all trying to figure out what the Summer Rattesnake is going to be great at. And we're sure it has to be really good at something because it's a pirate ship with a huge missile bonus and super-drones! Can I get an Amen!?!

The ship is magnificent at trolling people.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2032 - 2014-05-04 17:21:17 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
The ship is magnificent at trolling people.

This is probably the most accurate statement in this thread...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#2033 - 2014-05-04 17:43:54 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
At this point, we're all trying to figure out what the Summer Rattesnake is going to be great at. And we're sure it has to be really good at something because it's a pirate ship with a huge missile bonus and super-drones! Can I get an Amen!?!

The ship is magnificent at trolling people.


For maximum troll, use a Gecko instead of two heavies.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2034 - 2014-05-04 18:24:27 UTC
Yeah the issue with the lights and mediums was probably lazy programming.

They clearly do not want people fielding full flights of five +275% mediums or lights and the easy way out was not give them the bonus.

You could of course field 1 super ogre and 4 warriors but why ???


The bigger issue for me is the wasted 5th launcher slot cos I would want two T2 omnis for sentries. The fifth launcher only really works if you are fielding heavies.

Also whats with that pointless +38 cap ? Maybe they meant 38 CPU and got a typo :D
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2035 - 2014-05-04 19:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
The point of the +38 cap was someone's OCD. Could have been -12, I'll take +38 then.

I'm going to assume you mean a second DLA for the highslots, and that is why you are not happy with the 5 launchers.
We had that a few times, reply of mine was that with 4 launchers you still do more damage than before, with 5 your drones reach still out to 81-84 km, and at least you don't have to sacrifice a hardpoint or two like on a Dominix.

With the +275% drones...
I imagine the technology would allow setting a max drone count of 2 since setting it to 10 is possible in a Guardian Vexor.
But then you'd have the superdrones of a worm, and possibly 5 +50% bonused RLMLs if you want to play that game.
Some argued that it should be possible to do so, while others argued that it would be too powerful.

Also, consider that CCP changes the drone skill just so that the Worm can get bonused lights, the Gila bonused mediums only.
They really-really want it to work this way...

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#2036 - 2014-05-04 19:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
would a 4 launcher 50% th/kin missile damage 12 drone(500%) rattlesnake really be more OP then the vindicator or bhaalgorn?
personally id be fine with only having the bonus apply to heavys then

edit: ive seen many people not understand that the rattlers new drone bonuses give it the same heavy drone dps and HP as it does currently Cry

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2037 - 2014-05-04 20:18:19 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
would a 4 launcher 50% th/kin missile damage 12 drone(500%) rattlesnake really be more OP then the vindicator or bhaalgorn?

The Bhaalgorn and Vindicator are in a different class as both have an EW bonus. I think if either of them get you pinned down you're dead to rights. The Rattlesnake, not so much - but it's really too early to say. Realistically, I don't see the Rattlesnake getting a larger drone bonus and losing the fifth launcher any more than the likelihood of gaining a sixth launcher at some expense.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2038 - 2014-05-04 21:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I just ran the numbers on the Rattlesnake using some heavy drones… screw missiles!

• 2x Ogre II's, 4x T2 DDA, 1x T2 Drone Durability Rig, 2x T1 Drone Durability Rig
• 3564 armor, 1664 shield, 8792 structure (each) … 618.75 dps

• 1x Gecko, 4x T2 DDA, 1x T2 Drone Durability Rig, 2x T1 Drone Durability Rig
• 6125 armor, 6249 shield, 15840 structure … 882.24 dps
• A single Gecko is roughly equivalent to a pair of Ogre II's, but with twice the shielding

The new Rattlesnake doesn't field drones - it fields a battlecruiser! So yeah, screw missiles for the most part. This is going to be my setup. The rigs add +80% hit points and are well worth it for the Gecko.

Rattlesnake, aka: Guristas Carrier

5x T2 Dread Guristas Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge/Inferno Ammunition
1x T2 Drone Link Augmenter
1x Gecko, 2x Gecko (reserve), 5x Warrior II (reserve)

1x Large Micro Jump Drive
1x T2 Adaptive Invulnerability
1x Pithum C-Type Large Shield Booster
1x Gistum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier
1x Gistum C-Type Thermic Dissipation Amplifier
1x Gistum C-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
1x T2 Drone Navigation Computer

3x Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier (no idea on stats, but should be equivalent to 4x T2 DDAs)
1x Dread Guristas Drone Omnidirectional Enhancer (no idea what this will ultimately be called)
2x Dread Guristas Ballistic Control Unit

1x T2 Large Drone Durability Enhancer
2x T1 Large Drone Durability Enhancer

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2039 - 2014-05-04 21:17:35 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Am I missing something about these gecko drones? Isn't the best place to put them on a carrier?

Depending on how the Dps works out - maybe, maybe not - Carriers only have 375m Bandwidth. or 7 Geckos.
That is less than half what they can field now for little increase in Dps and possible huge increase in cost.

Best place for Geckos is a Snake; This would do me

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2040 - 2014-05-04 23:10:27 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Depending on how the Dps works out - maybe, maybe not - Carriers only have 375m Bandwidth. or 7 Geckos.
That is less than half what they can field now for little increase in Dps and possible huge increase in cost.

Yes, but consider that 7 Geckos only require Carrier-II. You need Carrier-V, Advanced Drone Control-V and 5 DCUs to field a full flight of heavy drones. Each Gecko has twice the shields of two heavy drones and about 25% more damage. Players are going to be snapping these up left, right and center for their carriers...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.