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Idea for Rorqual/Industrial Core as well as Mining fleet!

Author
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-05-02 04:47:41 UTC
Now that the Rorqual is being put out of commission by the new ore compression array it's time for a little love.

First i think the Rorqual needs a bit/quite a bit more armor and shield. And maybe another High slot or 2. Also making it immune to EWAR would be nice too.

The biggest change to the Rorqual would come from it's Industrial Core since it's no longer going to be worthwhile to compress with it (heavy water cost).

Here's what i suggest adding to the core function.
1: When active the Industrial Core provides a local cyno jam.
2: Increase Remote Shield Booster range. (for better asteroid field coverage)
3: Increases the amount of local shield booster by 100% and reduces the cycle time by 50%. (Survivability)
4: Hulks on field will have their Shield amount increased "dramatically". (Fleet survivability)


These few, seemingly modest changes will give the Rorqual something to do in a mining fleet other than just sit there like a fish in a barrel.

Increasing the HP and the Survivability of the Rorqual makes it much more viable on field, which is the intended direction i was lead to believe by past comments.

Increasing the Shield of the Hulks in a fleet in conjunction with a Rorqual does 2 things. It finally gives a niche for using Hulks to mine. Right now they are way too easy to kill to be viable for doing any kind of mining, even fleet mining, even well defended fleet mining. As they are the most expensive and least tanky exhumer they are generally the primary target for ganks. The 2nd thing it does is it incentivises putting a Rorqual on field by making your mining fleet much more viable and defensive. Mixing Hulks Skiffs and a Rorqual will be pretty strong with the new Skiff changes.

I did suggest in the barge/exhumer changes thread just giving Hulks more EHP and taking away their drone bay. (making them pretty much non-viable for solo but very good for fleet mining). And Give Mackinaws a bonus to repair drone effectiveness in the spirit of the Skiff changes. This would change fleet dynamics without majorly effecting solo dynamics. There would be a place for every ship in a mining fleet. This could be done instead of the "buff Hulks" mechanic.

What you guys think?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-05-02 04:55:04 UTC
1. no. thats way too powerful and will most certainly be abused.
2. maybe, but it already has the range of a carrier
3. maybe again, but i don't think it would be necessary with other changes
4. thats the job of links

Also, death to the indy core
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-05-02 05:13:25 UTC
Rowells wrote:
1. no. thats way too powerful and will most certainly be abused.
2. maybe, but it already has the range of a carrier
3. maybe again, but i don't think it would be necessary with other changes
4. thats the job of links

Also, death to the indy core

1: please explain this point as i'm not familiar with the mechanics of how this would end up being an issue

2: some of the asteroid clusters are huge, also the capital tractor beam II has a range of 250km. Though that amount of range would be a bit extreme, i don't see why it would be a huge issue to have 2 or 3 150km unbonused reps.

3: This one is actually the deal breaker (assuming the Indy core siege mode stays). The reason that Triage and Siege are viable mechanics is because of this mechanic. Without it Dreads and Carriers wouldn't be able to siege on field either.

4. This idea is very specific to hulks. Hulks aren't designed to be fleet mining ships because they lack EHP. For them to be viable as a fleet mining ship they NEED EHP. Otherwise it is unreasonable to even attempt to defend them in a fleet. They are the most expensive ship with the least amount of EHP. They are always going to be the primary target of a hostile as long as the isk/hp of hulks remains so over the top.
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-05-02 05:39:21 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:

Also making it immune to EWAR would be nice too.

so you want it to be required to need a heavy interdictor to catch this ship even though 99% of the time they sit in POS shields already.
Rialen
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-05-02 06:12:28 UTC
1. Why? PvPers blops miners. They don't really jump carriers in to kill a rorq/mining fleet when a blackop fleet does the job. Since Cyno jammers doesn't affect stealth cyno, why do you insist on having a cyno jammer?
Choc talar
Blazing Capsules
Already Replaced.
#6 - 2014-05-02 06:13:14 UTC
Actually the point that CCP has for future Roqual improvements is to actually get it out into belts where it belongs rather than behind shields. It order to facilitate this it needs to be more survivable, and as a fleet booster it should be able to copiously defend its fleet.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-05-02 19:24:10 UTC
Daoden wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:

Also making it immune to EWAR would be nice too.

so you want it to be required to need a heavy interdictor to catch this ship even though 99% of the time they sit in POS shields already.

interdictor/heavy interdictor sure it can't get away when it's in siege mode anyways. In fact the ship could just be EWAR immune when it's in siege mode just like triage and siege.

And yes, the idea is to get the Rorqual to a state that can facilitate the requirement for on grid boosting and get them out of the POS. Survivability and defensive capabilities are required for this to work.

Rialen wrote:
1. Why? PvPers blops miners. They don't really jump carriers in to kill a rorq/mining fleet when a blackop fleet does the job. Since Cyno jammers doesn't affect stealth cyno, why do you insist on having a cyno jammer?


If you take the idea as a whole instead of just one of it's pieces out of context you should be able to see for yourself. The rorqual will have a lot more survivability and defensive capability, so will it's mining fleet. A blops fleet should not be too big of an issue for a mining fleet of sufficient size. On the other hand a dread or two dropping directly on top of a Rorqual would be very detrimental. That being said, it's not impossible to get a dread in the system with the Rorqual, just dropped directly on top of them.

These ideas are assuming the Rorqual is on grid with the miners of course.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#8 - 2014-05-02 19:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMercenaryKing
The problem is that it is not nearly worth the risk to put a Rorqual on grid.

IF and only IF CCP makes it so nullsec site are smaller and decay faster (so they do not stay up for 3 days) or make it so you have to scan ore sites, only then would I ever put a Rorqual on grid. Another option would be make Rorquals able to successfully defend themselves against small fleets of sub-caps (like 6-10 frigates, or comparable larger classes).

edit, so it doesnt seem overpowered, they would need a great tank and poor DPS (like 400-500). that way they do not become the new slowcat.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-05-02 20:11:07 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
The problem is that it is not nearly worth the risk to put a Rorqual on grid.

IF and only IF CCP makes it so nullsec site are smaller and decay faster (so they do not stay up for 3 days) or make it so you have to scan ore sites, only then would I ever put a Rorqual on grid. Another option would be make Rorquals able to successfully defend themselves against small fleets of sub-caps (like 6-10 frigates, or comparable larger classes).

edit, so it doesnt seem overpowered, they would need a great tank and poor DPS (like 400-500). that way they do not become the new slowcat.

This is the whole point of my post. making the Rorqual very resistant and resilient to sub-caps and keeping them somewhat safe from caps. But with enough effort it's not impossible to kill a Rorqual, however with a fraction of the effort you can keep one safe to a certain extent. However they will be much more killable than parked in a pos.

You make a solid point about becoming the new slot cat. To fix that you can move the rep range bonus to the indy core completely.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2014-05-02 20:13:35 UTC
Rorq isn't really that "defenseless" ... it's just that people don't think.

Thrown together trash fitting in 5 minutes, no implants or fleet boosters:

DPS (Ogre IIs) - 634

1.5 m EHP omni
1.47m - Multifreq
1.45m - Antimatter
1.40m - Phased Plasma

For specific damage types:

EM - 1.56M
EX - 1.61
KN - 1.5
TH - 1.38

This is all without any implants.

[Rorqual, Test Fit]

Damage Control II
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Mining Foreman Link - Harvester Capacitor Efficiency II
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization II
Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement II
Industrial Core I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Capital Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Capital Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Capital Core Defense Field Extender II


Ogre II x5
Wasp EC-900 x5

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2014-05-02 23:57:33 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Rorq isn't really that "defenseless" ... it's just that people don't think.

Thrown together trash fitting in 5 minutes, no implants or fleet boosters:

[Fitting removed to save space]



I get that Rorquals can get good fittings. Yours, no offence is not the best (The +3K raw shield HP is almost useless); going with a capital shield rep, T1 extender rig, 1 of each resist mod (passive), and 2 Invulns provide a better tank with a supplementary active rep

The problem is that it isn't worth the current cost for this to be fielded on grid. The risk out weighs the reward unless you have like 20 miners. Otherwise i would choose an orca for boosts if being on grid was needed.
Choc talar
Blazing Capsules
Already Replaced.
#12 - 2014-05-03 06:34:15 UTC
As I see the Rorqual originally conceptualized it was not to replace an Orca as a booster. It is possible to leave the Rorqual as a booster and set the Orca's up as shield logi's to keep fleet alive in smaller gang stuff. There is not any set up that would keep a fleet alive if a cap fleet drops in. The Orca if fit properly actually has a pretty decent tank and if used 2-3 Orca's (depending on fleet size) with a rorqual and macks it is possible to keep everybody alive till help arrives (assuming there is help readily available.

The trick to any changes would not be anything offensively but rather better defensive systems. Some ECM drones mixed into the fleet composition as well as attack drones. A good sized mining fleet (20-30 people) can put enough drones in space to do some damage. a good mix of light and medium to counter some varied ship classes and maybe have a couple drop some sentry drones at edge of belt.

The possibilities are there, but with off grid boosts there is no need for anyone to try different fits out as is right now. If boots are changed to having to be on grid then it opens up the door for corps to actually have to try some fits out. Hell I know its boring for someone to just sit in belt with fleet and baby sit, but a carrier would give a huge boost to a mining fleet if used for protection.

I like little changes that make people look for ways of thinking outside the box a little bit, thats what makes Eve fun is all the possibilities. Cookie cutter fits are boring!
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-05-04 10:01:55 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Rorq isn't really that "defenseless" ... it's just that people don't think.

Thrown together trash fitting in 5 minutes, no implants or fleet boosters:

[Fitting removed to save space]


The problem is that it isn't worth the current cost for this to be fielded on grid. The risk out weighs the reward unless you have like 20 miners. Otherwise i would choose an orca for boosts if being on grid was needed.

The purpose of my idea is not only to increase the survivability of the Rorqual, but to increase the survivability of the mining fleet itself. The self rep bonus is increases the survivability dramatically.

Choc talar wrote:
(assuming there is help readily available.

The trick to any changes would not be anything offensively but rather better defensive systems.

The possibilities are there, but with off grid boosts there is no need for anyone to try different fits out as is right now. If boots are changed to having to be on grid then it opens up the door for corps to actually have to try some fits out. Hell I know its boring for someone to just sit in belt with fleet and baby sit, but a carrier would give a huge boost to a mining fleet if used for protection.

With skiffs with the drone boosts, maybe a mackinaw with a logi drone boost and a hulk with just survivability maybe no drone bay at all and a rorqual to boost on top does it really seem like help is needed? Why shouldn't some of the changes be towards offense? Should miners not be allowed to defend themselves at all?

The Skiffs would give up yield to protect the Fleet (as already mentioned).
The Mackinaws would give up yield to keep the Fleet alive
The Hulk would need to have higher EHP and just be a tanky miner.
The Rorqual will be a mini-Triage carrier with cyno jam for those big mean Dreads/supers/titans.

So what you're left with is a fleet that can defend itself from an array of attacks. Hostiles will have to think about the composition of the mining fleet before attacking. Miner Bears will potentially get to experience a fun PVP activity during their poor mundane PVE job.

What really needs to happen is the Hulk needs to get increased EHP even at the expense of it's Drone Bay.
Damienwhat Solette
The Artist's
#14 - 2014-05-04 11:02:45 UTC
original poster obviously doesn't know the game mechanics well enough to be putting those numbers out there, especially the cyno jammer suggestion, aswell as the invulnerability to ewar.

Besides the industrial core isn't always used for compressing, it allows your ore link to be enhanced, giving your mining fleet more yield, which in itself is already quite powerful.
HiddenPorpoise
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-05-04 11:35:57 UTC
The reason people are calling the cyno jam op is because they would be the last ship to land in a drop to stop counter drops.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-05-04 16:05:57 UTC
Damienwhat Solette wrote:
original poster obviously doesn't know the game mechanics well enough to be putting those numbers out there, especially the cyno jammer suggestion, aswell as the invulnerability to ewar.

Besides the industrial core isn't always used for compressing, it allows your ore link to be enhanced, giving your mining fleet more yield, which in itself is already quite powerful.


The industrial core would create the Cyno Jam field and the ewar invuln+assist invuln, just like triage and siege. And if mining boosts are the only reason to activate your indy core, then the indy core just needs to be removed from the game instead.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2014-05-04 16:18:36 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
then the indy core just needs to be removed from the game instead.

That is 90% of this ships problems.

right there. That damned device.

get rid of it and suddenly options open up.
Coyote Laughing
#18 - 2014-05-04 18:45:43 UTC
I really wish they would get rid of the implausible compression mechanic and turn the rorqual into a refinery ship, turning the ores into more portable minerals.

Failing that, how about putting some kind of huge drilling rig on it instead, with a range of 100km or so to replace the industrial core entirely (one per ship, doing ice as well for fuel, maybe gas too)?

It really sucks to be the booster when you tie a character up who can't then mine.

l8r \o/

Arronicus
United Caldari Navy
United Caldari Space Command.
#19 - 2014-05-04 19:04:10 UTC
Turning the rorqual into a mobile cynosaurul jammer would be just ridiculous. As for the other three options, none of them would add any value to the rorqual. I can already active tank my hulks to survive nearly any nullsec rat spawns, even in drone space, so neither more shields, nor increased remote assistance range would do anything toward motivating me to keep my rorqual in the belt.

Pointless suggestions, really, and the cyno thing would be massively abused, as people would have rorquals just for jamming systems/cyno control in ops.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-05-06 04:18:45 UTC
Rowells wrote:

That is 90% of this ships problems.

right there. That damned device.

get rid of it and suddenly options open up.

I don't know, i feel like letting it go would be letting a piece of what makes the Rorqual exceedingly cool go. It just needs better utility is all. And the Rorqual needs better survivability. And if it gets that from being in indy core siege mode then good. What use would a Rorqual without an industrial core be? What use will the rorqual be after the ore compression POS module comes out? Just an off-grid booster?

Coyote Laughing wrote:
I really wish they would get rid of the implausible compression mechanic and turn the rorqual into a refinery ship, turning the ores into more portable minerals.

Failing that, how about putting some kind of huge drilling rig on it instead, with a range of 100km or so to replace the industrial core entirely (one per ship, doing ice as well for fuel, maybe gas too)?

It really sucks to be the booster when you tie a character up who can't then mine.

With the new ore refining mechanics that might not be completely out of line to do. But then again, with the compression mechanics changing that wont matter anyways. And I somehow doubt they'll make the Rorqual a top tier ore refinery, but who knows....

As for the tieing up of a character, that's just part of the deal for boosting. You can opt out of boosting if you want to have another character mine. To tie up a character as a booster is a decision you make. If you're just one account then there's no reason for you to have a booster. if you have 2 characters then double miners is the better benefit. If you have 3 characters then having 1 Full boost orca or a fairly well trained Rorqual sieged is going to give you the same or better yield than 3 miners. After that the boosts are always worth more than the miner alone. Just gotta decided if boosts are worth it for you.

Arronicus wrote:
Turning the rorqual into a mobile cynosaurul jammer would be just ridiculous. As for the other three options, none of them would add any value to the rorqual. I can already active tank my hulks to survive nearly any nullsec rat spawns, even in drone space, so neither more shields, nor increased remote assistance range would do anything toward motivating me to keep my rorqual in the belt.

Pointless suggestions, really, and the cyno thing would be massively abused, as people would have rorquals just for jamming systems/cyno control in ops.

First of all the cyno jammer thing may or may not be ridiculous. To be honest I'm not sure if it will detract from anything or on the other hand cause more dynamic engagements. That's all speculation. Killing the Rorqual(s) would be a combat objective for sure and it wouldn't be outlandish if they're unassistable like other siege modules. They'd be very expensive cyno jammers and you couldn't use them to jam a system at all. I personally don't think that cynoing directly on top of another fleet should be the status quo. I think you should have to either earn it or leave it to a certain point in the engagement. Maybe we should have many more ships with cyno jammers so you actually have to have some sort of strategy when it comes to capital engagements.

The point of the idea is for PvP combat, nobody cares about how well your barges can survive rats. Hulks definitely cannot hold up against fleets of even the smallest sizes unless you have constant Remote Shield Boost support.

Of course none of these will motivate you to move your Rorqual to the belt because currently there are no limitations on Boost range. The idea here is to come up with something that would motivate you to put the rorqual in the belt if your boosts had to be on grid.

Would these changes motivate you to put your rorqual on grid if that was required to boost? What would it take?
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