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Should Concord standing hits be removed from low-sec ?
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Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-09-11 15:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
Somewhat mixed on this.

Concord and standings make sense in high-sec where you need a war dec to do anything.
And your actions otherwise face a standings hit.

But the question is,
Do they really serve a purpose in low-sec which is supposed to be a training ground for 0.0 ?
First thing you learn in 0.0 is that nobody bothers with war dec's.

I also think it would be easier on corporations or alliances that want to stake out a section of low-sec.
Leave the gate / station guns and all other mechanics in place but remove the hits from concord for attacking someone.

It just seems counter productive.
Thoughts ?

EVERYBODY KNOWS
cyllan anassan
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-09-11 15:12:30 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
Somewhat mixed on this.

Concord and standings make sense in high-sec where you need a war dec to do anything.
And your actions otherwise face a standings hit.

But the question is,
Do they really serve a purpose in low-sec which is supposed to be a training ground for 0.0 ?
First thing you learn in 0.0 is that nobody bothers with war dec's.

I also think it would be easier on corporations or alliances that want to stake out a section of low-sec.
Leave the gate / station guns and all other mechanics in place but remove the hits from concord for attacking someone.

It just seems counter productive.
Thoughts ?





yeah stop being a pirate and you wont take sec hits in low sec
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-09-11 15:14:17 UTC
The purpose of low sec is NOT a trianing ground for 0.0.

Lots of reason for sec hits, too many to list

I has all the eve inactivity
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-09-11 15:20:50 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
The purpose of low sec is NOT a trianing ground for 0.0.

Lots of reason for sec hits, too many to list


Actually the point is to discuss just that the LIST and the reasoning.
Pick one and tell me why it isn't a good idea.


EVERYBODY KNOWS
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#5 - 2011-09-11 15:38:06 UTC
Maybe make it dependent on the sec rating of the target.
If it's positive, you get a sec hit.
If you're 5 or more sec levels above your target, you don't get a sec hit.
If your target is -5 or less, you don't get a sec hit.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
The Offerer
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-09-11 15:56:58 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
Somewhat mixed on this.

Concord and standings make sense in high-sec where you need a war dec to do anything.
And your actions otherwise face a standings hit.

But the question is,
Do they really serve a purpose in low-sec which is supposed to be a training ground for 0.0 ?
First thing you learn in 0.0 is that nobody bothers with war dec's.

I also think it would be easier on corporations or alliances that want to stake out a section of low-sec.
Leave the gate / station guns and all other mechanics in place but remove the hits from concord for attacking someone.

It just seems counter productive.
Thoughts ?


That's what's NPC null is for.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-09-11 15:57:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
Abrazzar wrote:
Maybe make it dependent on the sec rating of the target.
If it's positive, you get a sec hit.
If you're 5 or more sec levels above your target, you don't get a sec hit.
If your target is -5 or less, you don't get a sec hit.


Yes that might be a method to control people if needed but....

I am more interested in what people believe would happen if all of a sudden you didn't get a security hit from killing someone in low-sec.

The Offerer wrote:


That's what's NPC null is for.


NPC 0.0 is not even close to low-sec, even removing security hits they would still be a very different place.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Levarris Hawk
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-09-11 16:15:29 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Maybe make it dependent on the sec rating of the target.
If it's positive, you get a sec hit.
If you're 5 or more sec levels above your target, you don't get a sec hit.
If your target is -5 or less, you don't get a sec hit.


Interesting.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-09-11 16:21:12 UTC
Currently, there are essentially three categories of pilots who live in low sec:
1) Pirates/Outlaws
2) Law-abiding citizens
3) Killmail whores.

Without sec hits in low sec, the distinction between these types of players would be significantly blurred. If someone is -10.0, you KNOW they are a pirate. There's a sort of romance behind having a -10.0 security status. Many pirates are proud of it, and would never have it any other way.

Killmail whores, on the other hand, would like sec status hits to be removed so that they can killmail whore all day long without having to deal with the repercussions of their actions. They want to have their cake, and eat it too - so the speak. And we can't have that in EVE, now can we?

ESSENTIALLY, sec hits are meant as a consequence to mindless slaughter. CCP decided that they didn't want EVE to be a place where you can just destroy everyone you see, and then fly back to Jita to reship whenever you want. No, if you want to mindlessly slaughter people, you are supposed to have to deal with the issue of how to get supplies, when you don't have access to high sec.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-09-11 16:35:33 UTC
the problem is sec status means nothing in low/null compared to highsec... there needs to be another penatly for having a low sec status... it SHOULD be bounty hunters after you, but that system is broken.... fix it or make a new penalty
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#11 - 2011-09-11 16:44:59 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
the problem is sec status means nothing in low/null compared to highsec... there needs to be another penatly for having a low sec status... it SHOULD be bounty hunters after you, but that system is broken.... fix it or make a new penalty


Low sec is just poorly defended empire space and security status does mean something there. It's either a badge of honor or an indication to the law abiding citizens to be careful. If someone chooses to prey on other pilots there standing should go down. What is broken is that hunting those with low sec standing also imparts a low sec standing.

I agree with the suggestion that killing someone with a low sec standing should impart a sec standing increase.

_ _
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-09-11 16:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
Taedrin wrote:
Currently, there are essentially three categories of pilots who live in low sec:
1) Pirates/Outlaws
2) Law-abiding citizens
3) Killmail whores.

Without sec hits in low sec, the distinction between these types of players would be significantly blurred. If someone is -10.0, you KNOW they are a pirate. There's a sort of romance behind having a -10.0 security status. Many pirates are proud of it, and would never have it any other way.

Killmail whores, on the other hand, would like sec status hits to be removed so that they can killmail ***** all day long without having to deal with the repercussions of their actions. They want to have their cake, and eat it too - so the speak. And we can't have that in EVE, now can we?

ESSENTIALLY, sec hits are meant as a consequence to mindless slaughter. CCP decided that they didn't want EVE to be a place where you can just destroy everyone you see, and then fly back to Jita to reship whenever you want. No, if you want to mindlessly slaughter people, you are supposed to have to deal with the issue of how to get supplies, when you don't have access to high sec.


I agree but there are some problems.
First is I have characters that have 5 standings and don't rat or mission run.
Just from killing a random rat here and there in 0.0 there standings go through the roof.
This is a well known mechanic and people use it all the time.
Second is what about people that want to stake out a place for themselves.
Every time they go to protect themselves they can and will take a hit.
Waiting on someone else to fire first is well, not a good idea.

It just seems the security standing in low-sec cause more problems then they fix.
So granted removing them all together might be taking it too far, but how do you correct it so that.
Pirates can be pirates.
Law-abiding citizens can be just that without having to be a lamb at the same time.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-09-11 17:07:14 UTC
Then again this brings up a interesting question.

IF you can do anything you want in 0.0 and Concord cares less.
Why should you be able to increase your standing while in 0.0.

IF anything it is a nomads land. Everything you do there doesn't count.
Removing that loop hole would also have to be addressed.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-09-11 17:20:59 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
Taedrin wrote:
Currently, there are essentially three categories of pilots who live in low sec:
1) Pirates/Outlaws
2) Law-abiding citizens
3) Killmail whores.

Without sec hits in low sec, the distinction between these types of players would be significantly blurred. If someone is -10.0, you KNOW they are a pirate. There's a sort of romance behind having a -10.0 security status. Many pirates are proud of it, and would never have it any other way.

Killmail whores, on the other hand, would like sec status hits to be removed so that they can killmail ***** all day long without having to deal with the repercussions of their actions. They want to have their cake, and eat it too - so the speak. And we can't have that in EVE, now can we?

ESSENTIALLY, sec hits are meant as a consequence to mindless slaughter. CCP decided that they didn't want EVE to be a place where you can just destroy everyone you see, and then fly back to Jita to reship whenever you want. No, if you want to mindlessly slaughter people, you are supposed to have to deal with the issue of how to get supplies, when you don't have access to high sec.


I agree but there are some problems.
First is I have characters that have 5 standings and don't rat or mission run.
Just from killing a random rat here and there in 0.0 there standings go through the roof.
This is a well known mechanic and people use it all the time.
Second is what about people that want to stake out a place for themselves.
Every time they go to protect themselves they can and will take a hit.
Waiting on someone else to fire first is well, not a good idea.

It just seems the security standing in low-sec cause more problems then they fix.
So granted removing them all together might be taking it too far, but how do you correct it so that.
Pirates can be pirates.
Law-abiding citizens can be just that without having to be a lamb at the same time.



BAH, I typed up a long reply, and the forums ate it.

BASICALLY:

1) Law-abiding citizens have access to the same sec-status repair mechanisms that pirates do.
2) Sec status hits for aggression are very minor and are EASILY repaired by killing a couple rats in low sec. Don't fit warp scrams and let the warp out when he reaches structure.
3) Even IF you blow up ships, sec status hits aren't that bad so long as you avoid popping pods. If you are simply defending yourself, you won't run into enough situations where you have to blow up enough ships to reach outlaw status.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-09-11 17:31:14 UTC
Taedrin wrote:

BAH, I typed up a long reply, and the forums ate it.

BASICALLY:

1) Law-abiding citizens have access to the same sec-status repair mechanisms that pirates do.
2) Sec status hits for aggression are very minor and are EASILY repaired by killing a couple rats in low sec. Don't fit warp scrams and let the warp out when he reaches structure.
3) Even IF you blow up ships, sec status hits aren't that bad so long as you avoid popping pods. If you are simply defending yourself, you won't run into enough situations where you have to blow up enough ships to reach outlaw status.


Do you think it is fair that I could clone jump to the safety of 0.0 and raise my standings then jump back to low-sec and continue on as before ?


EVERYBODY KNOWS
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#16 - 2011-09-11 17:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Russell Casey
Imo they should keep standing hits and -5 making you KOS, but let reds go to highsec without getting attacked by militia. Pirates can get around it with neutral alts and 0.0 ratting or just by using flag mechanics, so it's a broken mechanic. Players should run highsec as much as they do null.
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-09-11 17:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Taedrin
Simetraz wrote:
Taedrin wrote:

BAH, I typed up a long reply, and the forums ate it.

BASICALLY:

1) Law-abiding citizens have access to the same sec-status repair mechanisms that pirates do.
2) Sec status hits for aggression are very minor and are EASILY repaired by killing a couple rats in low sec. Don't fit warp scrams and let the warp out when he reaches structure.
3) Even IF you blow up ships, sec status hits aren't that bad so long as you avoid popping pods. If you are simply defending yourself, you won't run into enough situations where you have to blow up enough ships to reach outlaw status.


Do you think it is fair that I could clone jump to the safety of 0.0 and raise my standings then jump back to low-sec and continue on as before ?




I don't like it, but IMO it is within the bounds of permissible tolerance. Granted, this is a matter of opinion, so you are free to disagree with me. My reasoning is this:

Jump clones are on 24h timers, so it isn't like pirates can do this at will. Plus, in order to maximize sec status gains, you have to be constantly moving from system to system, leaving you vulnerable to bubbles and gate camps.

Also, as I said earlier, law-abiding citizens can do this too. It seems odd to me that this is something "too easy" for pirates, yet difficult enough to make it not an appropriate option for law-abiding citizens.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-09-11 17:51:17 UTC
Taedrin wrote:
Simetraz wrote:
Taedrin wrote:

BAH, I typed up a long reply, and the forums ate it.

BASICALLY:

1) Law-abiding citizens have access to the same sec-status repair mechanisms that pirates do.
2) Sec status hits for aggression are very minor and are EASILY repaired by killing a couple rats in low sec. Don't fit warp scrams and let the warp out when he reaches structure.
3) Even IF you blow up ships, sec status hits aren't that bad so long as you avoid popping pods. If you are simply defending yourself, you won't run into enough situations where you have to blow up enough ships to reach outlaw status.


Do you think it is fair that I could clone jump to the safety of 0.0 and raise my standings then jump back to low-sec and continue on as before ?




I don't like it, but IMO it is within the bounds of permissible tolerance. Granted, this is a matter of opinion, so you are free to disagree with me. My reasoning is this:

Jump clones are on 24h timers, so it isn't like pirates can do this at will. Plus, in order to maximize sec status gains, you have to be constantly moving from system to system, leaving you vulnerable to bubbles and gate camps.

Also, as I said earlier, law-abiding citizens can do this too. It seems odd to me that this is someone "too easy" for pirates, yet difficult enough to make it not an appropriate option for law-abiding citizens.


I don't like it either (ratting in 0.0 to raise security) to be honest and I don't see any reason to leave the mechanic in, it only gets abused, and needs to be removed.
But that is only one part of low-sec mechanics and it won't change everything.

I really do wish they would make bounty hunting an actual profession.
And as others are stating removing low-sec standings probably isn't the fix but changing them does need to be done.
Some of the ideas posted do have merit and to be honest I can't think of a way myself to do it.

Oh well, low-sec isn't going to be changed anytime soon anyways.
Kind of a shame.




EVERYBODY KNOWS
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#19 - 2011-09-11 17:53:26 UTC
Despite the fact that I have a -10 (almost) standing that was earned in lowsec, I still think there should be a CONCORD ding for indiscriminate killing.

It's easy to forget how hard this game is when you start out...

If we removed the CONCORD ding lowsec would not be "fixed"... it would just be a newbie blender, and I think those dipping their toes into pvp for the first time should be given a chance... otherwise we may see an increase in the carebear population. I don't think anyone wants that.

Also: it helps newbies to see who the real pirates are...

While NullSec needs fix'in, I think if you want CONCORD free action that's where you should go. The sec rules of low are good imho.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Lagruna Zegata
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-09-11 21:45:41 UTC
There was a popular Assembly Hall thread started by Mashie Saldana in the old forums about the sec gains in 0.0.

It was proposed that all sec gains could only be in low-sec (no gains in null anoms/belts or hi-sec missions). Only belt rats in low-sec could give sec gains.

Not sure why the idea died Question
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