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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1941 - 2014-05-03 23:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I am of the opinion That CCP wished these Guristas ships to be mobile platforms using Drones and missiles at far closer range than occurs currently. However the fear of offending sentry users forced a poor compromise.
Instead if having drones (of whatever size) applying damage to all targets, We now have similar heavies (reduced number balanced to same properties overall) and sentries that just are underwhelming and with lost effective range. (I do not want to get into the whole DLA is unimportant argument, either way it effects things)

If this ship was unchanged apart from having mobile drones that applied damage across all classes. Then the ship would have a character. As it is it is neither Fish or fowl. Things without definition or focus rarely succeed.

Modified your post slightly so it's less misunderstandable.

I do agree that the superdrones here are not super at all.
If they did more damage, or had a non-navy Domi's second bonus for the loss of ALL missile bonuses, I'd like the ship more.
Because it wouldn't be so schizophrenic.
I mean seriously, a pirate ship with it's 3 bonuses applying to 3 different things?
Vindi has Guns, Guns, and Webs make GUNZ kill frigs BLAP. Mach has Guns, Guns more Guns. Nightmare has now 2 gun bonuses that are as strong as the 3 it had before, and an AB bonus that helps tank and tracking (in ideal circumstances) by better range dictation.
Then again, I picked the Rattlesnake for the tank. That leaves two bonuses.
If both were missiles (velocity and damage) and it had unbonused drones but with a Gallente dronebay and bandwidth, I would strongly consider it.
Then again, I strongly consider it now as well, it's just that I'd rather have a more clearly primary weapon system.


The lost drone range... we had that discussion often enough, but just for repetition's sake: you can use 4 launchers and 2 DLA if you wish, you still get +50% damage buff in this summer, or slightly less if you fight EM or Exp weak rats.
I'm still comparing it to the Navy Domi, where you have 6 highs only 25% bonused and no utility hardpoints, and no ammo damage type choice at all.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1942 - 2014-05-03 23:03:12 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
To anyone with "almost perfect" missile skills, or otherwise, this ship is a huge buff.
It's a Navy Scorpion with bonused sentry drones, a better dps bonus and one less mid slot.

It's almost a Navy Scorpion. It still lacks a mid and the ability to apply all damage types. From a PvE standpoint, EM damage is probably a prerequisite in 1/3 to 1/2 of available missions. I'd be more impressed if they gave it 6 launchers.


As you suggest they could have made it a superior Navy scorpion. Possibly With some Hero feature to make it a pirate ship. Possibly 90% reduction in missile projection and a 200% bonus to missile velocity to make it viable in contested incursions?

I want to like this ship, Even as a dual drone/missile ship it could shine, But it just isn't working right.Sad

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1943 - 2014-05-03 23:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I am of the opinion That CCP wished these Guristas ships to be mobile platforms using Drones and missiles at far closer range than occurs currently. However the fear of offending sentry users forced a poor compromise.
Instead if having drones (of whatever size) applying damage to all targets, We now have similar heavies (reduced number balanced to same properties overall) and sentries that just are underwhelming and with lost effective range. (I do not want to get into the whole DLA is unimportant argument, either way it effects things)

If this ship was unchanged apart from having mobile drones that applied damage across all classes. Then the ship would have a character. As it is it is neither Fish or fowl. Things without definition or focus rarely succeed.

Modified your post slightly so it's less misunderstandable.

I do agree that the superdrones here are not super at all.
If they did more damage, or had a non-navy Domi's second bonus for the loss of ALL missile bonuses, I'd like the ship more.
Because it wouldn't be so schizophrenic.
I mean seriously, a pirate ship with it's 3 bonuses applying to 3 different things?
Vindi has Guns, Guns, and Webs make GUNZ kill frigs BLAP. Mach has Guns, Guns more Guns. Nightmare has now 2 gun bonuses that are as strong as the 3 it had before, and an AB bonus that helps tank and tracking (in ideal circumstances) by better range dictation.
Then again, I picked the Rattlesnake for the tank. That leaves two bonuses.
If both were missiles (velocity and damage) and it had unbonused drones but with a Gallente dronebay and bandwidth, I would strongly consider it.
Then again, I strongly consider it now as well, it's just that I'd rather have a more clearly primary weapon system.


The lost drone range... we had that discussion often enough, but just for repetition's sake: you can use 4 launchers and 2 DLA if you wish, you still get +50% damage buff in this summer, or slightly less if you fight EM or Exp weak rats.
I'm still comparing it to the Navy Domi, where you have 6 highs only 25% bonused and no utility hardpoints, and no ammo damage type choice at all.

I think in the basic concept we are coming from the same place, It could work with decent super drones and missiles, Or drop the drones altogether and go missile. but this sort of mishmash just does not excite and i think, will not end up being much good. I wish it had something like the other pirate ships to make it stand out.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1944 - 2014-05-03 23:08:16 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
90% reduction in missile projection and a 200% bonus to missile velocity to make it viable in contested incursions?Sad
+300% missile velocity (flying four times as fast) and minus 75% flight time (flying one-fourth as long) would shake things up as a role bonus.
It would be not so OP (maybe?), as the overall range would in fact be a bit shorter (missile acceleration works that way I believe), and you'd lose a possible +damage or range bonus, but would get one helluva application bonus.

90% instead of 75% would nerf range quite a bit, making torps have shorter range than blasters or ACs by a large margin.
Still, it would ignore tracking...

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1945 - 2014-05-03 23:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
As you suggest they could have made it a superior Navy scorpion. Possibly With some Hero feature to make it a pirate ship. Possibly 90% reduction in missile projection and a 200% bonus to missile velocity to make it viable in contested incursions? I want to like this ship, Even as a dual drone/missile ship it could shine, But it just isn't working right.Sad

I wasn't necessarily suggesting they turn it into a "Hero" Navy Scorpy, but if I had my say I'd give it a 6th launcher, drop the drone bonuses and give it 200mbit bandwidth so it can field 4 Geckos. And then I can save 15% on my ship insurance...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1946 - 2014-05-03 23:10:56 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The sentries do not lose effective range.

That won't be true no matter how many times you say it.


With one less DLA drone control range is less.
With 2 DLAs it is the same, But now One has one fewer launchers using either kinetic , thermal, or unbonused missiles. This also is a consideration.
I am well aware of these points and take it into account with my conclusions.
It is only one small aspect of the overall rebalance and although seemingly insignificant to some, will have some effect on how the ship is flown and used.Straight


Because you're forced to use the extra launcher, right? Roll

It loses no highslots, and gains a OPTIONAL launcher slot.

The only reason to ***** about that is because you want options taken away from other people.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1947 - 2014-05-03 23:11:26 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
90% reduction in missile projection and a 200% bonus to missile velocity to make it viable in contested incursions?Sad
+300% missile velocity (flying four times as fast) and minus 75% flight time (flying one-fourth as long) would shake things up as a role bonus.
It would be not so OP (maybe?), as the overall range would in fact be a bit shorter (missile acceleration works that way I believe), and you'd lose a possible +damage or range bonus, but would get one helluva application bonus.

90% instead of 75% would nerf range quite a bit, making torps have shorter range than blasters or ACs by a large margin.
Still, it would ignore tracking...

It would be a nice bonus wouldn't it.
But I am afraid we are going to get a hybrid, But I would be happy to be wrong.
If it is going to be one, Is it too much to hope that they do it well?
I hope they can.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1948 - 2014-05-03 23:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
As you suggest they could have made it a superior Navy scorpion. Possibly With some Hero feature to make it a pirate ship. Possibly 90% reduction in missile projection and a 200% bonus to missile velocity to make it viable in contested incursions? I want to like this ship, Even as a dual drone/missile ship it could shine, But it just isn't working right.Sad

I wasn't necessarily suggesting they turn it into a "Hero" Navy Scorpy, but if I had my say I'd give it a 6th launcher, drop the drone bonuses and give it 200mbit bandwidth so it can field 4 Geckos. And then I can save 15% on my ship insurance...

Wait, the insurance bonuses don't stack with additional geckos? CCP, why you release broken content?

My only issue with that idea is the scarcity of Geckos combined with the completely crazy DPS of 9 effective launchers and 10 effective heavies on anything that gets too close.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1949 - 2014-05-03 23:13:26 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The sentries do not lose effective range.

That won't be true no matter how many times you say it.


With one less DLA drone control range is less.
With 2 DLAs it is the same, But now One has one fewer launchers using either kinetic , thermal, or unbonused missiles. This also is a consideration.
I am well aware of these points and take it into account with my conclusions.
It is only one small aspect of the overall rebalance and although seemingly insignificant to some, will have some effect on how the ship is flown and used.Straight


Because you're forced to use the extra launcher, right? Roll

It loses no highslots, and gains a OPTIONAL launcher slot.

The only reason to ***** about that is because you want options taken away from other people.

That is quite clearly explained i think.
It is just one consideration in many, Not something to get over concerned with in isolation.
What are you concerned I am trying to have removed from others?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1950 - 2014-05-03 23:13:40 UTC
Mordu's Legion for the win!

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1951 - 2014-05-03 23:15:38 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mordu's Legion for the win!



I think you may be right, But wait for the explosion If CCP announce it is armour Tanked.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1952 - 2014-05-03 23:16:44 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mordu's Legion for the win!

Stats!

If it has 125 bandwidth, I'm in! Lol

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1953 - 2014-05-03 23:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I think you may be right, But wait for the explosion If CCP announce it is armour Tanked.

I'd totally be down for that, actually.

KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Stats! If it has 125 bandwidth, I'm in! Lol

I'm counting the days... Is it black... check. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1954 - 2014-05-03 23:17:48 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mordu's Legion for the win!
I think you may be right, But wait for the explosion If CCP announce it is armour Tanked.
1 Armor bonus, 1 missile bonus, and 1 EWAR bonus? Roll

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1955 - 2014-05-03 23:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mordu's Legion for the win!
I think you may be right, But wait for the explosion If CCP announce it is armour Tanked.
1 Armor bonus, 1 missile bonus, and 1 EWAR bonus? Roll

It may not have an armor bonus - it just may be geared towards an armor tank. It will almost certainly have 8 highs, so it's just a question on the breakdown of the lows and mids. I bet you can run a Covert Ops cloak on it...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1956 - 2014-05-03 23:22:59 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mordu's Legion for the win!
I think you may be right, But wait for the explosion If CCP announce it is armour Tanked.
1 Armor bonus, 1 missile bonus, and 1 EWAR bonus? Roll

It may not have an armor bonus - it just may be geared towards an armor tank. It will almost certainly have 8 highs, so it's just a question on the breakdown of the lows and mids. I bet you can run a Covert Ops cloak on it...


Actually although I switched armour for Shield, I have only about 10 days worth of catchup to get perfect armour skills.
It would make sense in many ways, I cannot think of any other armour ship that would be comparable, or am I missing it?

I think that might be the next choice instead of the rattler. I am losing faith, the longer it goes on, that it will get sorted.
I know Fanfest and all, But a Hi I am looking at your feedback would have been nice.Sad

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1957 - 2014-05-03 23:24:28 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mordu's Legion for the win!
I think you may be right, But wait for the explosion If CCP announce it is armour Tanked.
1 Armor bonus, 1 missile bonus, and 1 EWAR bonus? Roll
It may not have an armor bonus - it just may be geared towards an armor tank.
Was a jab at something I agreed with Epic on, that 3 different types of bonuses on a Pirate ships are too all-over the place.

Now.
For a Battleship with 6-7 lows, 3 CNBCU, the rest tank, all the mids I want for prop and EWAR?
With near-angel mobility?
For the glory of Khanid, my expectations are growing.
Oh, wait, I'm Gallente.
Miloise Roden be praised?

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1958 - 2014-05-03 23:25:17 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Actually although I switched armour for Shield, I have only about 10 days worth of catchup to get perfect armour skills. It would make sense in many ways, I cannot think of any other armour ship that would be comparable, or am I missing it?

I think that might be the next choice instead of the rattler. I am losing faith, the longer it goes on, that it will get sorted.
I know Fanfest and all, But a Hi I am looking at your feedback would have been nice.Sad

Armor may make more sense with a PvP setup - hard to say. But imagine if this had 8 lows, 8 highs and 4 mids. And 20% armor resistances...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1959 - 2014-05-03 23:26:21 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mordu's Legion for the win!
I think you may be right, But wait for the explosion If CCP announce it is armour Tanked.
1 Armor bonus, 1 missile bonus, and 1 EWAR bonus? Roll

It may not have an armor bonus - it just may be geared towards an armor tank.


I heard somewhere that the battleship has 8 midslots and 5 lowslots, so it really depends on how many scrams and extraneous stuff you want to cram onto it.

I'm actually more interested in the frigate, which now will dominate frigate combat. Fast, scram range boost, missiles. This thing is the default king of kiting.

The cruiser is probably equally powerful.

The battleship I an easily see being used as a "mass tackle" ship.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1960 - 2014-05-03 23:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Now.
For a Battleship with 6-7 lows, 3 CNBCU, the rest tank, all the mids I want for prop and EWAR?
With near-angel mobility?
For the glory of Khanid, my expectations are growing.
Oh, wait, I'm Gallente.
Miloise Roden be praised?

It's totally cool since it's a Caldari-Gallente hybrid. All of the best - none of the suck. Now we just need some black "Hero" stealth drones to go along with it...

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I heard somewhere that the battleship has 8 midslots and 5 lowslots, so it really depends on how many scrams and extraneous stuff you want to cram onto it.

Hmmm... The plot thickens.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.