These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1921 - 2014-05-03 21:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Yes Yes and yes, I am not saying it is a bad ship, and I am not saying that it suddenly needs management where it didn't before.
I am saying that overall the choices that have been made, pushes it over the point, where management of your systems becomes Micromanagement.

It is less pleasant.

When people are choosing this ship in the future, most will not be looking for that feature.

The rattlesnake has ended up LESS good than it was before. Other than a single use Gank ship.

not exactly a ringing endorsement for the ship

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1922 - 2014-05-03 22:01:59 UTC
It hasn't lost anything it needed in the first place.

If you want to fit it for drone snipe like before, then just use one less launcher. Difference being that you can fit damn near anything in the 4 remaining launchers now and have more DPS than anything you could have fit in the launchers before.

Net buff. Enormous net buff.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1923 - 2014-05-03 22:05:32 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Sounded more like a claim than a suggestion. Must be my bad.

Sorry, I was just trying to suggest that one could opt to use the drones as a primary with rapid light launchers as a secondary since the missile damage bonus also applies to them. As for the Gecko, I think it holds a lot of promise - and I was merely pointing out that I think it's a positive as opposed to negative potential.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1924 - 2014-05-03 22:05:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Why did you fly it until now?


For the bonused light drones, duh.



I look at the overall features of The rattlesnake before the rebalance, and the overall features and use of the rattlesnake after rebalance, and I come to the conclusion that it is a less desirable ship than previously.

You may think the opposite, I can respect that.

But when very many people have expressed an opinion that they do not like the changes for very many reasons, picking on One item and saying fly differently and get used to it, will not convince them it is now lovely.
This was a ship that was not a popular pirate ship.
For many it is less popular.
Picking on little bits of their posts and telling them they are wrong and doing eve wrong, will not be a persuasive argument.
You do seem to want the ship to go into production exactly as proposed, If you are successful in convincing CCP that everyone is wrong , and it is wonderful, I hope you enjoy the ship as you will probably be one of a very small number who choose to fly it.
There are many better choices, even more now.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1925 - 2014-05-03 22:07:26 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


I look at the overall features of The rattlesnake before the rebalance, and the overall features and use of the rattlesnake after rebalance, and I come to the conclusion that it is a less desirable ship than previously.


I suppose this would be true if you had no skillpoints in missiles.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1926 - 2014-05-03 22:08:34 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
It is less pleasant.

I agree, due to the various reasons I listed, it became a lot more hassle to fly effectively.
That is NOT the fault of the current Faction BS rebalance, but to all game design changes done the last few years.

You can still semi-afk in it with LMJDs, your cruise missiles will fly slower and deal more damage, not a bad trade even if it's not to your liking.
Frigate rats will not touch you.


epicurus ataraxia wrote:
The rattlesnake has ended up LESS good than it was before.

May I remind you that I agreed with the quote above?
Good.

This quote.
No, no, and a post it a thousand times, we will reply a thousand times with no.
Unless we get bored, that is.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1927 - 2014-05-03 22:10:22 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I am saying that overall the choices that have been made, pushes it over the point, where management of your systems becomes Micromanagement. It is less pleasant.

Yeah, I'd agree with that sentiment.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1928 - 2014-05-03 22:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


I look at the overall features of The rattlesnake before the rebalance, and the overall features and use of the rattlesnake after rebalance, and I come to the conclusion that it is a less desirable ship than previously.


I suppose this would be true if you had no skillpoints in missiles.



Actually quite the opposite My missile skills are virtually perfect. Which is why Missile ships will do the Job much better now, As using my Good drone skills on this ship.will be a poor use of them.
Sorry, but in many players opinion I have read here, it just is not a Great ship.

Sure it is a good ship, But it is competing with and losing to T1 ships. Navy ships walk all over it.
Never mind being a capable pirate ship.

But you are perfectly entitled to pick features that matter to you if it suits your play style, But it most certainly will be less desirable to many.
But I am not trying to change your personal opinion. You are entitled to that.

It could be fixed very simply if drones are looked at as a whole system and not just ripped out and replaced by a new gimmick.
The cruiser version of the hero drones,is very good,But it does not scale up beyond that drone size without a deeper look at their complete stats and limitations.Sad

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1929 - 2014-05-03 22:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
It is less pleasant.

I agree, due to the various reasons I listed, it became a lot more hassle to fly effectively.
That is NOT the fault of the current Faction BS rebalance, but to all game design changes done the last few years.

You can still semi-afk in it with LMJDs, your cruise missiles will fly slower and deal more damage, not a bad trade even if it's not to your liking.
Frigate rats will not touch you.


epicurus ataraxia wrote:
The rattlesnake has ended up LESS good than it was before.

May I remind you that I agreed with the quote above?
Good.

This quote.
No, no, and a post it a thousand times, we will reply a thousand times with no.
Unless we get bored, that is.


Sorry, I got a little confused there?
IS it your opinion that the rattlesnake is a more desirable ship now and a worthy pirate ship? Or the opposite?
Sorry I may be being dumb, but I am not sure what you mean?
If you believe that, that is fine, I cannot believe that though, and a lot of others seem not to think that, but you are entitled to your opinion.
I am just giving my feedback and suggestions as are others.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1930 - 2014-05-03 22:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
It's a far cry from promoting 'AFK' gameplay to say a ship juggling painters, volley counts, drones and perhaps omni scripts (but probably not) is high maintenance. I fly ships like that, they probably are the hardest work in PvE terms. They are also the most fun and rewarding, but when you can't be bothered, or are tired sometimes just locking up the room and pressing F1 when stuff pops in a vargur is preferable.

I guess what I'm saying is sometimes 70-75% of the effectiveness for 30% of the effort can be worth it. But I still like the option, I LIKE ships that reward pilot effort.

Edit: I should add that the 'new' incarnation is no more hassle than the current one, just more people are looking at it in that light for the first time and it's a bit of a culture shock.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1931 - 2014-05-03 22:34:09 UTC
Wait a frikkin second here.

To anyone with "almost perfect" missile skills, or otherwise, this ship is a huge buff.

It's a Navy Scorpion with bonused sentry drones, a better dps bonus and one less mid slot.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1932 - 2014-05-03 22:34:37 UTC
afkalt wrote:
It's a far cry from promoting 'AFK' gameplay to say a ship juggling painters, volley counts, drones and perhaps omni scripts (but probably not) is high maintenance. I fly ships like that, they probably are the hardest work in PvE terms. They are also the most fun and rewarding, but when you can't be bothered, or are tired sometimes just locking up the room and pressing F1 when stuff pops in a vargur is preferable.

I guess what I'm saying is sometimes 70-75% of the effectiveness for 30% of the effort can be worth it. But I still like the option, I LIKE ships that reward pilot effort.



Oh yes,Managing the systems to get the best from it is fun, I agree. However my concern is that the higher management needs involved in Juggling a hybrid ship has now passed over the point where it is enjoyable.
It is no longer management, It is micromanagement. And the changes that have been implemented on this ship just make it Far less pleasant to fly, for all the reasons previously stated.

people will pick on one point, light drones for example and explain why it is not a problem, as if they are replying to someone who has never used them.
Yes they are quite right, in their replies, in isolation, but it is what that brings to the overall play experience of the rattlesnake in conjunction, as a whole, add all the effects together and the ship simply Is not going to be enjoyable to use.
If people cannot see that, that is fine, I do not expect to change anyones fixed ideas, They may be right anyway.
But I and it seems others too from what I have read here, Do not believe it has been done well or effectively. simple changes and an understanding that heavies and sentries, do not scale well into hero drones without taking account of their limitations.
And I am putting this feedback to CCP with suggestions of what can be looked at to make it popular widely, not just to a few.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1933 - 2014-05-03 22:36:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
To anyone with "almost perfect" missile skills, or otherwise, this ship is a huge buff.
It's a Navy Scorpion with bonused sentry drones, a better dps bonus and one less mid slot.

It's almost a Navy Scorpion. It still lacks a mid and the ability to apply all damage types. From a PvE standpoint, EM damage is probably a prerequisite in 1/3 to 1/2 of available missions. I'd be more impressed if they gave it 6 launchers.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1934 - 2014-05-03 22:37:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Wait a frikkin second here.

To anyone with "almost perfect" missile skills, or otherwise, this ship is a huge buff.

It's a Navy Scorpion with bonused sentry drones, a better dps bonus and one less mid slot.


Of course it is a raw DPS buff, that is very clear.
But that does not automatically make it a good ship. And it not as nice a ship to fly as a navy scorpion. That is far better done. This is a hybrid ship with half of it left unfinished. That will not end well if left unresolved.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1935 - 2014-05-03 22:37:29 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
But when very many people have expressed an opinion that they do not like the changes for very many reasons, picking on One item and saying fly differently and get used to it, will not convince them it is now lovely.

But for so many different reasons...
A lot lot LOT more many people have expressed over the years a great dissatisfaction with the Rattlesnake for being "boring" and low dps, so it did need a change.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:
This was a ship that was not a popular pirate ship.

Mainly because people run L4s for the profit, whatever may be, and there were more ships running them faster, thus getting more rewards for you in the same timeframe.
For those who used it, the extra brick over many of the alternatives was the reason they chose it probably.
Tank is staying, no change there.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Picking on little bits of their posts and telling them they are wrong and doing eve wrong, will not be a persuasive argument.

I suppose I am one of those people that pick bits in posts and reply to them.
At least one knows I reply after having read the post, and to what is written to them, instead of calling folk ignorant clown-kid fools for not seeing my Magnificence, and the unerring Truths in my words.
This was not aimed at you, do not misunderstand.
In fact, not really aimed at anyone, since no one does this, right?

Many dissatisfied with the Rattlesnake didn't really provide persuasive arguments apart from "it's not how I'm used to it".
And that is not very compelling for CCP Rise to cancel the changes.
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
You do seem to want the ship to go into production exactly as proposed, If you are successful in convincing CCP that everyone is wrong , and it is wonderful, I hope you enjoy the ship as you will probably be one of a very small number who choose to fly it.

Is he trying to convince CCP that "Everyone" is wrong?
"Everyone" who?
You were one ardent defender of the old Rattlesnake, Rod another with all his toons, but many expressed excitement over how the Cruise/Sentry Rattlesnake gets a much needed dps buff.
Are they not part of "everyone"?
Or are there two different sets of "Everyones"?

Another quite few were confused with the changes, but more than half of them ended up saying "hmm, it's weird, but I dunno, maybe?".
I think THAT group is the vast majority of the EVE players in this question, the ones who don't read the forums, and don't come here posting.
But that's a private oppinion I'm not willing to back up

Many of us aren't 100% happy with these changes.
True.
But a lot of think that the added raw potential and choices are still better than the Rattlesnake currently on TQ.

For instance, my beef with it is that I'd like to have the PG reduced for some added CPU, and have either a stronger drone damage bonus for lesser/unbonused missile launchers, or the other way around, as a 50-50 like this is something that ...confuses me.
But the CPU is not something I'm low on because of this change.
And the Launchers I could pretend to be clearly inferior like on TQ today, and then it's the same Rattlesnake I already own, just better.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1936 - 2014-05-03 22:43:22 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
To anyone with "almost perfect" missile skills, or otherwise, this ship is a huge buff.
It's a Navy Scorpion with bonused sentry drones, a better dps bonus and one less mid slot.

It's almost a Navy Scorpion. It still lacks a mid and the ability to apply all damage types. From a PvE standpoint, EM damage is probably a prerequisite in 1/3 to 1/2 of available missions. I'd be more impressed if they gave it 6 launchers.


It will have the ability to apply all damage types.

They're rebalancing drone categories, remember? Amarr Sentries will have the second most dps of sentries. That's what I'm saying, aside from one mid slot, and not having the Scorpion's dramatically over generous fitting, this ship is so very much better.

Gotta take everything into context here.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1937 - 2014-05-03 22:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
To anyone with "almost perfect" missile skills, or otherwise, this ship is a huge buff.
It's a Navy Scorpion with bonused sentry drones, a better dps bonus and one less mid slot.

It's almost a Navy Scorpion. It still lacks a mid and the ability to apply all damage types. From a PvE standpoint, EM damage is probably a prerequisite in 1/3 to 1/2 of available missions. I'd be more impressed if they gave it 6 launchers.

What 1/2 of available missions?

Caldari, and their pirate version the Guristas need Kin/TH.
Gallente, and their pirate version the Serpentis need Kin/TH.
The "neutral" groups Mercs, EoM, Mordu all need Kin/Therm.

Amarr and it's pirate version Blood need EM, and the non-incursion Sansha.
Minmatar and it's pirate version Angels need Explosive.

In half the habited lands of EVE, Kin/Therm is the way to go, and as far as I know, more than half of the playerbase lives in those highsec areas.

Do you think, with a 6th launcher, you would do more dps to an EM-hole rat, than with 5 with bonused Thermal missiles?
Let's take an amarr BS, that has 50% EM resist, 60% Thermal (realistically it's 49% and 59%).
With the 7.5 launchers proposed here, and 60% resist, you are down to the damage of 3 (0.4*7.5 = 3)
With 6 launchers and 50% resist you are down to the damage of 3.

So for the "unbonused" rats, it breaks even with the secondary missiles.

Appologies if my tone is not proper.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1938 - 2014-05-03 22:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
But when very many people have expressed an opinion that they do not like the changes for very many reasons, picking on One item and saying fly differently and get used to it, will not convince them it is now lovely.

But for so many different reasons...
A lot lot LOT more many people have expressed over the years a great dissatisfaction with the Rattlesnake for being "boring" and low dps, so it did need a change.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:
This was a ship that was not a popular pirate ship.

Mainly because people run L4s for the profit, whatever may be, and there were more ships running them faster, thus getting more rewards for you in the same timeframe.
For those who used it, the extra brick over many of the alternatives was the reason they chose it probably.
Tank is staying, no change there.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Picking on little bits of their posts and telling them they are wrong and doing eve wrong, will not be a persuasive argument.

I suppose I am one of those people that pick bits in posts and reply to them.
At least one knows I reply after having read the post, and to what is written to them, instead of calling folk ignorant clown-kid fools for not seeing my Magnificence, and the unerring Truths in my words.
This was not aimed at you, do not misunderstand.
In fact, not really aimed at anyone, since no one does this, right?

Many dissatisfied with the Rattlesnake didn't really provide persuasive arguments apart from "it's not how I'm used to it".
And that is not very compelling for CCP Rise to cancel the changes.
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
You do seem to want the ship to go into production exactly as proposed, If you are successful in convincing CCP that everyone is wrong , and it is wonderful, I hope you enjoy the ship as you will probably be one of a very small number who choose to fly it.

Is he trying to convince CCP that "Everyone" is wrong?
"Everyone" who?
You were one ardent defender of the old Rattlesnake, Rod another with all his toons, but many expressed excitement over how the Cruise/Sentry Rattlesnake gets a much needed dps buff.
Are they not part of "everyone"?
Or are there two different sets of "Everyones"?

Another quite few were confused with the changes, but more than half of them ended up saying "hmm, it's weird, but I dunno, maybe?".
I think THAT group is the vast majority of the EVE players in this question, the ones who don't read the forums, and don't come here posting.
But that's a private oppinion I'm not willing to back up

Many of us aren't 100% happy with these changes.
True.
But a lot of think that the added raw potential and choices are still better than the Rattlesnake currently on TQ.

For instance, my beef with it is that I'd like to have the PG reduced for some added CPU, and have either a stronger drone damage bonus for lesser/unbonused missile launchers, or the other way around, as a 50-50 like this is something that ...confuses me.
But the CPU is not something I'm low on because of this change.
And the Launchers I could pretend to be clearly inferior like on TQ today, and then it's the same Rattlesnake I already own, just better.



Firstly, no You have always tried to be fair up to now with your replies, and not just picking useable ammunition out of posts. That has not been something you have done.I am sorry if you thought that.

I am not devaluing your opinions in the slightest, I am simply stating that there are various views held by people in this forum who also are trying to get them across in a reasonable manner, It is not always easy.

I personally believe that the ship has great potential, but due to the failure to account for the limitations of heavy and sentry drones, it will miss that potential.

I am of the opinion That CCP wished these Guristas ships to be mobile platforms using Drones and missiles at far closer range than occurs currently. However the fear of offending sentry users forced a poor compromise.
Instead of having drones (of whatever size) applying damage to all targets, We now have unmodified heavies (reduced number balanced to same properties overall) and sentries that just are underwhelming and with lost effective range. (I do not want to get into the whole DLA is unimportant argument, either way it effects things) the super drone concept has issues scaling beyond medium unless those limitations are addressed.

If this ship was unchanged apart from having mobile drones that applied damage across all classes. Then the ship would have a character. As it is it is neither Fish or fowl. Things without definition or focus rarely succeed.

The Rattlesnake was not a great ship by any means and I am very pleased it is having a change. ALL I am asking is that it is done well. And my feedback and suggestions are solely for that reason.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1939 - 2014-05-03 22:51:24 UTC
The sentries do not lose effective range.

That won't be true no matter how many times you say it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1940 - 2014-05-03 22:58:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The sentries do not lose effective range.

That won't be true no matter how many times you say it.


With one less DLA drone control range is less.
With 2 DLAs it is the same, But now One has one fewer launchers using either kinetic , thermal, or unbonused missiles. This also is a consideration.
I am well aware of these points and take it into account with my conclusions.
It is only one small aspect of the overall rebalance and although seemingly insignificant to some, will have some effect on how the ship is flown and used.Straight

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE