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Warfare & Tactics

 
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[Fanfest 2014] Factional Warfare, round table.
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Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#41 - 2014-05-03 19:37:36 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
after having some time to think about this last night. Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.

unless these dual boxing farmers are being srsly strained trying to fight these rats because they dont have the srs ship to actually kill the rat, it wont be enough and nothing will change.

in the small there needs to be an actual destroyer rat capabale of killing a player destroyer full t2 fit.
same for medium, needs to be an actual cruiser capable of killing cruisers and actualy in some cases kills them.

and they need to respawn. other wise its simply not enough having a simple respawn for rats that get afk killed by 900k sp alts.



Then several things will then happen in regards to the real pvp..

this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.

Also, when warping to fight a cruiser you scanned in a medium in an offensive system, you'll effectively always be fighting 2vs1 since this super-rat is apparently capable of inflicting serious harm and even destroying T2 fit player ships. Imagine what it can do with a player alongside it.

The warzone is for PvP right? Then lets leave the rats out of the equation in our fights, like they are now.
One of those 'be careful what you wish for' scenarios.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#42 - 2014-05-03 20:17:33 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
after having some time to think about this last night. Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.

unless these dual boxing farmers are being srsly strained trying to fight these rats because they dont have the srs ship to actually kill the rat, it wont be enough and nothing will change.

in the small there needs to be an actual destroyer rat capabale of killing a player destroyer full t2 fit.
same for medium, needs to be an actual cruiser capable of killing cruisers and actualy in some cases kills them.

and they need to respawn. other wise its simply not enough having a simple respawn for rats that get afk killed by 900k sp alts.



Then several things will then happen in regards to the real pvp..

this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.

Also, when warping to fight a cruiser you scanned in a medium in an offensive system, you'll effectively always be fighting 2vs1 since this super-rat is apparently capable of inflicting serious harm and even destroying T2 fit player ships. Imagine what it can do with a player alongside it.

The warzone is for PvP right? Then lets leave the rats out of the equation in our fights, like they are now.
One of those 'be careful what you wish for' scenarios.


i basically did this every day until inferno came out. and it effected very little outcome in the form of pvp.

big deal. if you want to take that plex and there are hostiles around take the plex in force. with the new meta t1 logi fits i doubt anybody is gonna be at low armor or shields for long.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#43 - 2014-05-03 21:02:23 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
after having some time to think about this last night. Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.

unless these dual boxing farmers are being srsly strained trying to fight these rats because they dont have the srs ship to actually kill the rat, it wont be enough and nothing will change.

in the small there needs to be an actual destroyer rat capabale of killing a player destroyer full t2 fit.
same for medium, needs to be an actual cruiser capable of killing cruisers and actualy in some cases kills them.

and they need to respawn. other wise its simply not enough having a simple respawn for rats that get afk killed by 900k sp alts.



Then several things will then happen in regards to the real pvp..

this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.

Also, when warping to fight a cruiser you scanned in a medium in an offensive system, you'll effectively always be fighting 2vs1 since this super-rat is apparently capable of inflicting serious harm and even destroying T2 fit player ships. Imagine what it can do with a player alongside it.

The warzone is for PvP right? Then lets leave the rats out of the equation in our fights, like they are now.
One of those 'be careful what you wish for' scenarios.


i basically did this every day until inferno came out. and it effected very little outcome in the form of pvp.

big deal. if you want to take that plex and there are hostiles around take the plex in force. with the new meta t1 logi fits i doubt anybody is gonna be at low armor or shields for long.



The goal is to get us to require logi support to plex?

The rats were horrible before ccp finally toned them down. It was a good change. Probably the best thing ccp did for fw since it started. Players shouldn't rely on npcs to hold their space.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#44 - 2014-05-03 21:03:21 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:


Jup seeing as all sides were affected by this not just cals everyone wanted one more t5 cashout but damar seems to think ccp were (and still are) in gal mil and knew caldaris were gunna go for a system flip at that time and announced patch with no time for them to do it(so they say even tho they had enough systems vuln and enough days to flip it)

seeing as gals owned the systems at that time pushed for t5 before patch hit.


thing is that emergency patch broke sandbox.

1. Caldari had plans to take systems before patch and lp dump to tier 5 and cash out and make sure systems are on caldari side when patch comes.

2. emergency patch prevented caldari plan totally, no way to get lp dump anymore for caldari so no reason to shoot bunkers anymore.

3. CCP changed also that you have to shoot _ALL OLD RATS_ before timer run for attacker, so if you wanted lp best was to put alts on gallente side and defend plex systems.

so whole mechanic was totally broken between emergency patch and actual fix for it where rats where removed. Caldari had no reason to do anything in plexes so gallente was alone plexing and taking systems. So i do not know why CCP did it like that but quite many veteran from caldari side got enough and quit fw.

this was not 1st time CCP did something that helped gallente, reason why they did things was not maybe because they wanted to boost certain militia but they wanted to change mechanics to make fw working somehow better, because gallente has always been smaller and did not so well than caldari so it has been gallente who got most help from changes.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#45 - 2014-05-03 21:13:01 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
after having some time to think about this last night. Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.

unless these dual boxing farmers are being srsly strained trying to fight these rats because they dont have the srs ship to actually kill the rat, it wont be enough and nothing will change.

in the small there needs to be an actual destroyer rat capabale of killing a player destroyer full t2 fit.
same for medium, needs to be an actual cruiser capable of killing cruisers and actualy in some cases kills them.

and they need to respawn. other wise its simply not enough having a simple respawn for rats that get afk killed by 900k sp alts.



Then several things will then happen in regards to the real pvp..

this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.

Also, when warping to fight a cruiser you scanned in a medium in an offensive system, you'll effectively always be fighting 2vs1 since this super-rat is apparently capable of inflicting serious harm and even destroying T2 fit player ships. Imagine what it can do with a player alongside it.

The warzone is for PvP right? Then lets leave the rats out of the equation in our fights, like they are now.
One of those 'be careful what you wish for' scenarios.


i basically did this every day until inferno came out. and it effected very little outcome in the form of pvp.

big deal. if you want to take that plex and there are hostiles around take the plex in force. with the new meta t1 logi fits i doubt anybody is gonna be at low armor or shields for long.



The goal is to get us to require logi support to plex?

The rats were horrible before ccp finally toned them down. It was a good change. Probably the best thing ccp did for fw since it started. Players shouldn't rely on npcs to hold their space.




i clearly did not say that was the goal at all cearain. since the t1 logi alts are already in place for fw. big difference back then you needed pve ship for 20 minutes to run the plex. this is 1 minute of killing a hard NPC then moving the **** on.

All the old FW players back then werent calling for a PVE removal of FW they were calling for the proper balancing between the races rats. right so we are still gonna rely on farmers to hold our space eh? No im sorry, inferno was probably the worst thing to happen to FW. missions are hard. plexs were hard, now they are easy, its time they become hard again.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#46 - 2014-05-03 21:15:52 UTC
I don't think there is any question that the ninja patch completely lopsided the Caldari Gallente fw I think Gallente got their medal shortly after that. I don't think it was due to any favoritism though. I think it just had to do with ignorance of the situation, and the fact that the current tier system was way too profitable.

If they had actually thought a bit, they might have toned down the cashout benefits instead of making the whole system stagnant.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#47 - 2014-05-03 21:16:29 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
after having some time to think about this last night. Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.

unless these dual boxing farmers are being srsly strained trying to fight these rats because they dont have the srs ship to actually kill the rat, it wont be enough and nothing will change.

in the small there needs to be an actual destroyer rat capabale of killing a player destroyer full t2 fit.
same for medium, needs to be an actual cruiser capable of killing cruisers and actualy in some cases kills them.

and they need to respawn. other wise its simply not enough having a simple respawn for rats that get afk killed by 900k sp alts.



Then several things will then happen in regards to the real pvp..

this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.

Also, when warping to fight a cruiser you scanned in a medium in an offensive system, you'll effectively always be fighting 2vs1 since this super-rat is apparently capable of inflicting serious harm and even destroying T2 fit player ships. Imagine what it can do with a player alongside it.


The warzone is for PvP right? Then lets leave the rats out of the equation in our fights, like they are now.
One of those 'be careful what you wish for' scenarios.


i basically did this every day until inferno came out. and it effected very little outcome in the form of pvp.

big deal. if you want to take that plex and there are hostiles around take the plex in force. with the new meta t1 logi fits i doubt anybody is gonna be at low armor or shields for long.



The goal is to get us to require logi support to plex?

The rats were horrible before ccp finally toned them down. It was a good change. Probably the best thing ccp did for fw since it started. Players shouldn't rely on npcs to hold their space.




i clearly did not say that was the goal at all cearain. since the t1 logi alts are already in place for fw. big difference back then you needed pve ship for 20 minutes to run the plex. this is 1 minute of killing a hard NPC then moving the **** on.

All the old FW players back then werent calling for a PVE removal of FW they were calling for the proper balancing between the races rats. right so we are still gonna rely on farmers to hold our space eh? No im sorry, inferno was probably the worst thing to happen to FW. missions are hard. plexs were hard, now they are easy, its time they become hard again.


now it really is pve, you have to shoot rats, before you could just tank those now that is not possible so FW is now shooting rats...

going worse all the time...

Sad that CCP has to make bad game for actual players because of preventing botting.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#48 - 2014-05-03 21:22:33 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
after having some time to think about this last night. Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.

unless these dual boxing farmers are being srsly strained trying to fight these rats because they dont have the srs ship to actually kill the rat, it wont be enough and nothing will change.

in the small there needs to be an actual destroyer rat capabale of killing a player destroyer full t2 fit.
same for medium, needs to be an actual cruiser capable of killing cruisers and actualy in some cases kills them.

and they need to respawn. other wise its simply not enough having a simple respawn for rats that get afk killed by 900k sp alts.



Then several things will then happen in regards to the real pvp..

this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.

Also, when warping to fight a cruiser you scanned in a medium in an offensive system, you'll effectively always be fighting 2vs1 since this super-rat is apparently capable of inflicting serious harm and even destroying T2 fit player ships. Imagine what it can do with a player alongside it.

The warzone is for PvP right? Then lets leave the rats out of the equation in our fights, like they are now.
One of those 'be careful what you wish for' scenarios.


i basically did this every day until inferno came out. and it effected very little outcome in the form of pvp.

big deal. if you want to take that plex and there are hostiles around take the plex in force. with the new meta t1 logi fits i doubt anybody is gonna be at low armor or shields for long.



The goal is to get us to require logi support to plex?

The rats were horrible before ccp finally toned them down. It was a good change. Probably the best thing ccp did for fw since it started. Players shouldn't rely on npcs to hold their space.




i clearly did not say that was the goal at all cearain. since the t1 logi alts are already in place for fw. big difference back then you needed pve ship for 20 minutes to run the plex. this is 1 minute of killing a hard NPC then moving the **** on.

All the old FW players back then werent calling for a PVE removal of FW they were calling for the proper balancing between the races rats. right so we are still gonna rely on farmers to hold our space eh? No im sorry, inferno was probably the worst thing to happen to FW. missions are hard. plexs were hard, now they are easy, its time they become hard again.


Your right some people want plexing to remain a pve activity. I think there is a place for pve in faction war - fw missions. I just wish the actual occupancy war was pvp not pve. I only speak for myself, but other people have said the same thing since fw came out.

Hans said he wanted pvp too. But he never really focused on the issues that would make fw occupancy pvp. That's why occupancy is all alts, cloaks and stabs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#49 - 2014-05-03 21:31:25 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

now it really is pve, you have to shoot rats, before you could just tank those now that is not possible so FW is now shooting rats...

going worse all the time...

Sad that CCP has to make bad game for actual players because of preventing botting.



I don't like the general direction either. But really the rats are easy to deal with even with a pvp ship. If it will help against botting, that's a good change. (how it will do that I have no clue, but I am willing to accept that must be the reason)

But IMHO they need to focus on a few easy changes that will really make the occupancy war into a fun pvp battlefield spread out across the regions. Not just something where your options are to get blobbed in a home system where all the enemies have god mode links, or get very few good plex fights anywhere else. IMO it should be constant fighting as soon as you can fit up a ship throughout the war zone.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
ALUCARD 1208
Naga's Be Trippin
#50 - 2014-05-03 21:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Cearain wrote:
I don't think there is any question that the ninja patch completely lopsided the Caldari Gallente fw I think Gallente got their medal shortly after that. I don't think it was due to any favoritism though. I think it just had to do with ignorance of the situation, and the fact that the current tier system was way too profitable.








Total warzone control was way after that so didnt affect the balance when we took the warzone for complete control was after cals had held alot of it for a while......

as for making it too profitable now ... i dont get this i could earn 5 times what i earn now bk then

No doubt damarrs tinfoil hattery will explode now funkybacon is on the csm

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#51 - 2014-05-03 22:56:38 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:





No doubt damarrs tinfoil hattery will explode now funkybacon is on the csm


plz link this information!

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-05-03 23:24:57 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:





No doubt damarrs tinfoil hattery will explode now funkybacon is on the csm


plz link this information!



The new CSM's were announced at the Fanfest final presentation.

Good to see someone involved with FW get a seat, even if it is a Gall. Blink
ALUCARD 1208
Naga's Be Trippin
#53 - 2014-05-04 01:25:14 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:


plz link this information!



vid wasnt on youtube yet so read this ;)

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#54 - 2014-05-04 03:17:38 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
damn. my hanger of assorted bc's t3's and commandships is finally gonna see some action that isnt on the undock or the other end of a cyno. not to mention my pile of battleships. yay.

damn i need some farming alts to make all this isk back. anybody got any good macro programs? Bear

I wonder if we'll really see that many more BC fights though? I'm still a skeptic just because I feel like alot of people have been conditioned to fly frigs/dessies for so long that it's hard to get people to fly bigger stuff.
It's like anything. If the other side it attacking a system that is actively defended, then yes there will be larger ship fights when the large plex opens up. Otherwise, it will be small skirmish stuff or alt farmers as it is everywhere else. Large will have tougher rat, so it's pretty clear it won't be farmed as easily as novice through medium.


Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#55 - 2014-05-04 04:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
well, i can already tell now that the cloaking restriction will fix nothing. It might make it even worse. Freaking timer resets is what we need (and maybe a small timer length reduction if they are added).

Did nobody mention that on the roundtable?

edit: and having more rats would fix what again?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#56 - 2014-05-04 06:49:06 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
well, i can already tell now that the cloaking restriction will fix nothing. It might make it even worse. Freaking timer resets is what we need (and maybe a small timer length reduction if they are added).

Did nobody mention that on the roundtable?

edit: and having more rats would fix what again?


There is a blog linked on the first page of this thread that recounts the FW round table. The short version is that many suggestions were brought up- 2012 was our year though so only expect small changes.

More rats would deter farmers. You have to pick your poison here. There will be times where you would have to warp out as your attention is divided with said rats vs. watching your militia burn out to the farmer hordes. I don't even think it is that cut and dry with the NPCs either. Two years ago you had mission quality rats that did considerable DPS and were appropriate for the plex they were in. For those who weren't there - 4 to 6 rats at a time and 3 to 5 waves. After Inferno the rats had the majority of their DPS stripped away and had their tanks buffed up. They were also changed to track any ship despite speed or signature.

Suggestion:
Do three waves of two ships of the newer 'no DPS' rats. Remove their 'can always track' ability- it's redundant as the timer won't move anyways. There is some middle ground here.
Jahbulon
Aliastra
#57 - 2014-05-04 07:54:36 UTC
Quote:
this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.


This. All that will happen is that farmers will focus on defensive plexing instead.

Cloaking not being allowed within capture radius will help prevent the legions of bot farmers (who love to cloak up on arrival). Best sell my Astero, though.

Was there any discussion at all about removing the ridiculous faction navy, or at least dialling down its damping? The one that doesn't properly damp the likes of Trigger99 outside Villore, but does damp us outside Nourvukaiken? The one that makes GalMil missions hopeless?
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#58 - 2014-05-04 10:07:55 UTC
Jahbulon wrote:
Quote:
this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.


This. All that will happen is that farmers will focus on defensive plexing instead.

Cloaking not being allowed within capture radius will help prevent the legions of bot farmers (who love to cloak up on arrival). Best sell my Astero, though.

Was there any discussion at all about removing the ridiculous faction navy, or at least dialling down its damping? The one that doesn't properly damp the likes of Trigger99 outside Villore, but does damp us outside Nourvukaiken? The one that makes GalMil missions hopeless?


there is nothin to defence plex if farmers goes on defencive. So you can not make attack plexing too hard because it will kill farmers and FW will be dead again.
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#59 - 2014-05-04 16:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Plato Forko
Cearain wrote:
If it will help against botting, that's a good change. (how it will do that I have no clue, but I am willing to accept that must be the reason)


We had real, live players reporting bots; the best defense that exists, but it still made no difference because CCP won't ban accounts unless they can find evidence.

How is it possible to find reliable evidence of botting when the game itself requires players to ACT LIKE BOTS?

The only way to forever remove botting from FW is simply to remove all PvE from it entirely.

I'd also like to add that NPCs in plexes in general has always been a terrible idea. I'm not in FW to pew pew worthless rats, I'm in FW to PvP, and when a large gang in system forces me down into a plex they can't access, and I still have to run from a fight I would engage, JUST because some dipshit rat is dunking me meanwhile, that SUCKS and is going to SUCK MORE when rats get harder
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#60 - 2014-05-04 16:06:59 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
well, i can already tell now that the cloaking restriction will fix nothing. It might make it even worse. Freaking timer resets is what we need (and maybe a small timer length reduction if they are added).

Did nobody mention that on the roundtable?

edit: and having more rats would fix what again?


There is a blog linked on the first page of this thread that recounts the FW round table. The short version is that many suggestions were brought up- 2012 was our year though so only expect small changes.


i do understand this that we can't expect big changes. But all we are asking for are tweaks. CCP needed a second expansion to partially fix what they delivered in inferno. And in all instances they always said "we will monitor the situation and tweak it later".

This did never happen. And timer resets are a trivial coding task, they are probably LESS effort than adding more rats and balancing them. #justsaying

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value