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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1881 - 2014-05-03 09:36:29 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

somehow the new drone system needs to have the same capability over the whole range of targets as previously.


No.

Because to do that, you would have to compensate by severely cutting the missile bonus, not to mention likely removing it's applicability to all size launchers. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.



Wrong. That is an idiotic conclusion. No good reason we can't have bonuses on all our drones.


There is a good reason. The fact that it would make the ship into an all powerful frigate muncher, and wouldn't give cruisers much chance either.



You mean like a vindicator, bhaalgorn and machariel?


Notice how none of those 3 have bonused small or medium signature radius guns?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1882 - 2014-05-03 09:41:26 UTC
Giullare wrote:
Rattlesnake is still a little behind other pirate battleships.
It can use a minor boost like +1 high slot (not even missile hardpoint).

You know it already has the same number of slots as half the pirate BS's. Only Mach & Vindi have more.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1883 - 2014-05-03 09:56:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


You mean like a vindicator, bhaalgorn and machariel?


Notice how none of those 3 have bonused small or medium signature radius guns?


The don't need to be.

Vindicator's web bonus means frigates are blapped in 1 shot
bhaalgorn's neuts and web range means that frigates are blapped in 1 shot
machariel neuts, moves away and blaps in one shot.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1884 - 2014-05-03 10:01:50 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There is a good reason. The fact that it would make the ship into an all powerful frigate muncher, and wouldn't give cruisers much chance either.
You mean like a vindicator, bhaalgorn and machariel?
Notice how none of those 3 have bonused small or medium signature radius guns?


The day a Vindi has troubles against a frig will be the day CCP takes away it's web bonus.

And that is not this balancing round.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1885 - 2014-05-03 10:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There is a good reason. The fact that it would make the ship into an all powerful frigate muncher, and wouldn't give cruisers much chance either.
You mean like a vindicator, bhaalgorn and machariel?
Notice how none of those 3 have bonused small or medium signature radius guns?


The day a Vindi has troubles against a frig will be the day CCP takes away it's web bonus.

And that is not this balancing round.


These are all effective Pirate battleships.

So what is the Rattlesnake then?
No special bonus,
Does stuff less well than other ships.

That does not sound like a good outcome.

Honestly while not trying to criticise,
The idea that:-

Fit RHML > ???? >Super Pirate Ship

Sounds like collect underpants > ???? >Profit!

So what is stage two? Possibly fix drones?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1886 - 2014-05-03 10:25:31 UTC
Drone ships do many things less well or differently than other ships.

This is a ship balancing thread sadly, not the one droneophiles are waiting for since so many years.

Now, I'm all too aware, that balancing a ship is impossible without taking it's weapon system into account.

I'm also aware how the Rattlesnake's drone focus is getting chopped up.

I don't like that one bit.

But I'm willing to give the ship a try on the test servers, with Cruise Missiles or RHMLs, I might have better mission competition times than before the way I play.

How should I know, without trying?

I mean, I didn't have any medium drones in my drone bay for over a year, and the small ones I use very-very rarely since the LMJD.
I didn't fit 3 BCU a TP and 3 Rigors before, now I will, and shall see for myself.
Sounds interesting, all things said.

Might be worse than I think, might be better.

Only one thing is sure:
I will need better missile skills!

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1887 - 2014-05-03 10:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Drone ships do many things less well or differently than other ships.

This is a ship balancing thread sadly, not the one droneophiles are waiting for since so many years.

Now, I'm all too aware, that balancing a ship is impossible without taking it's weapon system into account.

I'm also aware how the Rattlesnake's drone focus is getting chopped up.

I don't like that one bit.

But I'm willing to give the ship a try on the test servers, with Cruise Missiles or RHMLs, I might have better mission competition times than before the way I play.

How should I know, without trying?

I mean, I didn't have any medium drones in my drone bay for over a year, and the small ones I use very-very rarely since the LMJD.
I didn't fit 3 BCU a TP and 3 Rigors before, now I will, and shall see for myself.
Sounds interesting, all things said.

Might be worse than I think, might be better.

Only one thing is sure:
I will need better missile skills!


Yes, the ship is definately more missile based, not neccesarily a bad thing.
The only concern is that once it goes to the test server, it will be three years before it gets looked at again.
Let's not kid ourself, there is no way that changes of this magnitude get undone after going to test.
A tweak here or there possibly.

It has to be 90% right before it goes there, and it is no way near that at the moment.


There were so many ways this could have gone, so many choices that could have been made, It seems that it was forgotten in the rush to hero drones (I am told the new name?) that drones are not like turrets, they are a complete system, and only having one effective size is a phenomenal change.If you are going for only one size, mediums at least have some effect at either end of the scale but just heavy and sentries? Madness.
For this reason, the Gila will work I think? The Rattlesnake, neither one thing or another, just a disappointment. It is not worth getting excited about. *looking around for better choice*

As it stands if it had become a pure missile boat that was better than the CNR and dropped drones completely it would have been better.

As it is it is in a worse place than before, sure more paper DPS, but why on earth bother with it, without flying it one can see just how management heavy it has become, apart from its role as a gank boat which is press F1 and drop heavies, things die

The Rattlesnake has been turned from a reasonable but very dull and predictable ship. Into a very disjointed, odd, and just as dull ship that is harder work to fly and fit well.

Not the buff we are looking for.

It is now simply less healthy than before.

Give it Gila class hero drones, and it can be a mission boat, a Gank boat, and everything in between too.= rebalance win.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1888 - 2014-05-03 12:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sure more paper DPS, but why on earth bother with it, without flying it one can see just how management heavy it has become.


Dunno, I always tried to fly my Rattlesnake with as much gank and as little gank as possible.
Based on my previous times with a CNR, it shouldn't be really worse.
TP is now 5 seconds, and we have the LMJD.

Heck, for a time I had a mission alt, ran a CNR with the Rattlesnake (back when there was no microdrive and Tp was 10 seconds), this will be much easier!

Now FITTING it properly, that will be a game of tradeoffs...
...that I - in my masochistic ways - am almost looking forward to!
Though I would like to do so without a CPU rig/module.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1889 - 2014-05-03 13:03:03 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sure more paper DPS, but why on earth bother with it, without flying it one can see just how management heavy it has become.


Dunno, I always tried to fly my Rattlesnake with as much gank and as little gank as possible.
Based on my previous times with a CNR, it shouldn't be really worse.
TP is now 5 seconds, and we have the LMJD.

Heck, for a time I had a mission alt, ran a CNR with the Rattlesnake (back when there was no microdrive and Tp was 10 seconds), this will be much easier!

Now FITTING it properly, that will be a game of tradeoffs...
...that I - in my masochistic ways - am almost looking forward to!
Though I would like to do so without a CPU rig/module.


Hmm, tradeoffs, if we assume just cruise sniping and just bs, how many tp, radius, and exp velocity stuff would one need?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1890 - 2014-05-03 13:16:35 UTC
"Management heavy" is the new complaint now?

"Grr, I have to pay attention to what I'm doing".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1891 - 2014-05-03 13:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Forum ate my post, remembering my signature FTW!
Barton Breau wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sure more paper DPS, but why on earth bother with it, without flying it one can see just how management heavy it has become.


Dunno, I always tried to fly my Rattlesnake with as much gank and as little gank as possible.
Based on my previous times with a CNR, it shouldn't be really worse.
TP is now 5 seconds, and we have the LMJD.

Heck, for a time I had a mission alt, ran a CNR with the Rattlesnake (back when there was no microdrive and Tp was 10 seconds), this will be much easier!

Now FITTING it properly, that will be a game of tradeoffs...
...that I - in my masochistic ways - am almost looking forward to!
Though I would like to do so without a CPU rig/module.
Hmm, tradeoffs, if we assume just cruise sniping and just bs, how many tp, radius, and exp velocity stuff would one need?

Edit:
Right, Battleships.
1 TP and Tripple Rigor against the more slippery Angel battleships burning towards you (going at twice the orbiting speed).
Against most battleships x3 Rigor alone is enough.

Elite cruisers are a lot more annoying, there even two TP is not enough unless they orbit.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1892 - 2014-05-03 13:29:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"Management heavy" is the new complaint now?

"Grr, I have to pay attention to what I'm doing".


Yeah it sure is management heavy.
I saw someone a few pages back complaining they would have to use scrams and or webs in PVP!!!!
Crazy times.
How will we deal with such complexity?

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1893 - 2014-05-03 14:25:03 UTC
Are we back to this already? I was enjoying the brief respite from the flood of personal attacks and childish comments. Some of us are actually interested in reading some of the well thought-out comments from players, so can we collectively start blocking here comments and just disregarding the obvious trolls?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1894 - 2014-05-03 14:58:04 UTC
What I like the most, is how the one who took a posting vacation due to alt-posting puppeteering is the one accusing others of alt-posting all the time.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1895 - 2014-05-03 15:02:20 UTC
I think it's worth my reposting:

afkalt wrote:
Can I suggest that before people rain more hate on it; they actually try an active, aggressive rattlesnake today for a number of hours. Fit launchers, fit BCUs; try it. Provided you have the skills, you'll not be disappointed once you get into the rhythm of it.

Then, after that, imagine her with 50% more missile DPS and another launcher.

Split weapons aren't great, but on an active shield tanked ship that many lows are begging for it.



Try it today, on TQ. Provided your skills are up to snuff, it is hilarious.

Fit correctly, with some pimp, you get:

89.1k EHP
818 DPS omni tank
1006 (wardens)-1194 (gardes) DPS

Before implants.

They are impressive numbers and it WILL get that damage out. They won't blow socks off, of course. But that's today. Imagine it with another launcher and 50% missile DPS increased.

I strongly suspect the people complaining about it haven't actually tried this kind of fit and have been using it as a passive brick drone boat exclusively - and that's all well and good but I strongly recommend you try this type of fit before debating more.

And yes, yes it is massively skill intensive.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1896 - 2014-05-03 15:08:06 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I strongly suspect the people complaining about it haven't actually tried this kind of fit and have been using it as a passive brick drone boat exclusively

Confirming that my Rattlesnakes no longer have Core Defense Rigs, because the ship is a lot more fun played differently.

*starts timer*

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1897 - 2014-05-03 15:12:36 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
*starts timer*

Are you counting the days until Tuesday? Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#1898 - 2014-05-03 16:43:45 UTC
A reasonable (imo) minor change I posted about that I'd like to bring up again.

Increase cargo bay by same amount of m3 as lost drone bay size to help with increased missile usage.

Ship is still the same size right? That m3 had to go somewhere when the drone bay wall was moved.

Does nothing for dps either up or down. Minor help in carrying an MTU and a mobile depot at the same time.

I'd like my lights and mediums to stay bonused, but that is not likely to happen.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1899 - 2014-05-03 16:51:17 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I think it's worth my reposting:

afkalt wrote:
Can I suggest that before people rain more hate on it; they actually try an active, aggressive rattlesnake today for a number of hours. Fit launchers, fit BCUs; try it. Provided you have the skills, you'll not be disappointed once you get into the rhythm of it.

Then, after that, imagine her with 50% more missile DPS and another launcher.

Split weapons aren't great, but on an active shield tanked ship that many lows are begging for it.



Try it today, on TQ. Provided your skills are up to snuff, it is hilarious.

Fit correctly, with some pimp, you get:

89.1k EHP
818 DPS omni tank
1006 (wardens)-1194 (gardes) DPS

Before implants.

They are impressive numbers and it WILL get that damage out. They won't blow socks off, of course. But that's today. Imagine it with another launcher and 50% missile DPS increased.

I strongly suspect the people complaining about it haven't actually tried this kind of fit and have been using it as a passive brick drone boat exclusively - and that's all well and good but I strongly recommend you try this type of fit before debating more.

And yes, yes it is massively skill intensive.


You've just described a less powerful hyperion.

Rattlesnake is a good ship to be sure - it's just that as a pirate battleship it's a total fail.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1900 - 2014-05-03 16:53:13 UTC
Lin, Ron, Tempban, whatever you want to call yourself this week...

Is it possible for you to act at least a little like you aren't just a garden variety troll? You didn't post for a day or so, and it was so much better in here, actual conversation took place, even among people that disagree with eachother.

I agree that the new RS isn't getting what it deserves, but smaller bonused drones is not where it needs to go. Raise the superdrone bonus to the same levels we saw on the lower hulls, and the RS will be something people use for a High DPS pirate ship.