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Unfair Advantages
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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-05-02 20:44:16 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Basically, it comes down to this: one form of automations (botting) is considered against the EULA while another form of automation (isboxer) is not.

Both take limited inputs (i.e. fewer inputs then it would normally take to run say 40 clients) and apply them to a larger set of clients. Botting does this through a "run" command that executes a predefined program while the user is away whereas isboxer effectively runs a number of smaller programs (macros) while the user is (nominally) at the keyboard.

Either way automates gameplay, but CCP says one is bad and the other isn't, so those are the rules we play by. If you don't like it.....well....catalysts are a cheap solution to your problem.


An automat does things by itself. Hence the "auto" in automat.
ISboxer does nothing by itself and is dependent on input by a user.
It's not an automat in any way or form, unless you add botting software.

It copies information and does not create it.
Copying information isn't the same as creating it.


All this has been discussed to death already and can be looked up
using google to search through the forums.


Tippia wrote:
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
Actually...under a strict reading of the EULA, a multiboxing program is 'third-party' software that '[facilitates] acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. '
…except that multiboxing does not do any of that, which is why it's allowed.

PotatoOverdose wrote:
Basically, it comes down to this: one form of automations (botting) is considered against the EULA while another form of automation (isboxer) is not.

No. It comes down to this: automation of input is not allowed; replication of input is. They are very different beasts.

Isboxer uses macros to achieve it's ends. Macros are automation by definition.

Botting and isboxer are both automation. CCP says one form of automation is against the EULA while choosing to limit its expressed views on the other. Nothing in my first post is incorrect.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2014-05-02 21:44:02 UTC
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
Actually...under a strict reading of the EULA, a multiboxing program is 'third-party' software that '[facilitates] acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.


How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?


If you multibox w/o IsBoxer or had 40+ unique players on the on the field opperating toward the same goal there would be inefficiences due to bad timing alt/tabbing and/or the uncontrollable lives of 40+ plus people wich would make the operation significantly less efficient. So yes, IsBoxer makes 1 person much more efficient as there is significantly less 'lag' between commands on ISBoxed accounts than there is potential for in a non-IsBoxed player or group.

Yes, 40+ IsBoxed accounts do nothing when the player leaves the keyboard while a real group of 40+ unique pilots could then make up for some of the disparity, so I do not have a problem with players using the program at all, but lets not color the truth too much.


You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#83 - 2014-05-03 00:40:55 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
Actually...under a strict reading of the EULA, a multiboxing program is 'third-party' software that '[facilitates] acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.


How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?


If you multibox w/o IsBoxer or had 40+ unique players on the on the field opperating toward the same goal there would be inefficiences due to bad timing alt/tabbing and/or the uncontrollable lives of 40+ plus people wich would make the operation significantly less efficient. So yes, IsBoxer makes 1 person much more efficient as there is significantly less 'lag' between commands on ISBoxed accounts than there is potential for in a non-IsBoxed player or group.

Yes, 40+ IsBoxed accounts do nothing when the player leaves the keyboard while a real group of 40+ unique pilots could then make up for some of the disparity, so I do not have a problem with players using the program at all, but lets not color the truth too much.


You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

Accounts are not mentioned in this part of the EULA, players are. Your question is irrelevant.

Remove standings and insurance.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-05-03 00:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Isboxer uses macros to achieve it's ends.


and in what authority do you make this claim?


Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

Accounts are not mentioned in this part of the EULA, players are. Your question is irrelevant.

Mallak Azaria wrote:
You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2014-05-03 00:47:11 UTC
Sibius Aidon wrote:
these guys with 41 accounts

where did you get that number? wait, don't tell me; I pretty sure I don't want to know.
I have many accounts... but I find mining with more than about 4 on one machine too much for my machines limited resources. Still frankly, I do not see any real need for out side software to make this work. You just need a lot of multi-tasking ability.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Alt Two
Caldari Capital Construction Inc.
#86 - 2014-05-03 00:57:34 UTC
How is this in any way unfair? Are you not allowed to do the same thing if you wanted to?
If you aren't then yes it would be an unfair advantage, but I'm pretty sure CCP wouldn't stop you if you started multiboxing.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2014-05-03 02:56:37 UTC
Alt Two wrote:
How is this in any way unfair? Are you not allowed to do the same thing if you wanted to?
If you aren't then yes it would be an unfair advantage, but I'm pretty sure CCP wouldn't stop you if you started multiboxing.

not to mention, thats 41 accounts, each needing to be paid, so theyre sucking up the equivalent of 41 players of ORE. So OP can either get 40 more people to do the equivalent rock-sucking, or realize 9 times out of 10, hes sucking up just as much ore as one of his 41 accounts.

OP are you complaining that your one account doesnt suck up the equivalent ore as 41 separate accounts combined?
mkint
#88 - 2014-05-03 03:07:24 UTC
didn't I hear something about devs discussing this internally? Software-assisted multiboxing? I know the precedent is that it's legal and kosher. Would definitely be good to hear some dev feedback on the topic though. Except they are probably all drunk off their asses by now, and probably won't even look at the forums until Tuesday.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
IDGAD
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2014-05-03 03:10:02 UTC
Multibox your own accounts and join a nullsec industry corp. Once you mine out an asteroid "site" it respawns within a few minutes for hours of more mining !
mkint
#90 - 2014-05-03 03:11:13 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
[

Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

Accounts are not mentioned in this part of the EULA, players are. Your question is irrelevant.

Mallak Azaria wrote:
You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

That's the dumbest response I've heard on this issue. (sorry don't get to be the dumbest post on the forums.) What would a non-automated multiboxer be able to pull?

Or flip it around... if botting was legal, anybody could bot, so it would be perfectly fair, so that must therefore be the best solution! Dumb logic is dumb.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
I Have 18Accounts
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2014-05-03 05:28:42 UTC
Screw you OP.
I Have 18Accounts
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2014-05-03 05:30:46 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
Actually...under a strict reading of the EULA, a multiboxing program is 'third-party' software that '[facilitates] acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.


How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?


If you multibox w/o IsBoxer or had 40+ unique players on the on the field opperating toward the same goal there would be inefficiences due to bad timing alt/tabbing and/or the uncontrollable lives of 40+ plus people wich would make the operation significantly less efficient. So yes, IsBoxer makes 1 person much more efficient as there is significantly less 'lag' between commands on ISBoxed accounts than there is potential for in a non-IsBoxed player or group.

Yes, 40+ IsBoxed accounts do nothing when the player leaves the keyboard while a real group of 40+ unique pilots could then make up for some of the disparity, so I do not have a problem with players using the program at all, but lets not color the truth too much.


You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

It doesn't.

A player using 40+ accounts with multibox programs obtains stuff at an accelerated rate over a player using 40+ accounts without multibox programs.

I have no idea what you guys are even arguing - you're a goon so probably just trolling - but thought I'd clear that up.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2014-05-03 05:34:46 UTC
I Have 18Accounts wrote:
It doesn't.

A player using 40+ accounts with multibox programs obtains stuff at an accelerated rate over a player using 40+ accounts without multibox programs.

I have no idea what you guys are even arguing - you're a goon so probably just trolling - but thought I'd clear that up.

Self contradiction is not clarification.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2014-05-03 07:24:32 UTC
mkint wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
[

Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

Accounts are not mentioned in this part of the EULA, players are. Your question is irrelevant.

Mallak Azaria wrote:
You gave the wrong answer to the question put forth: How does an account used by a multiboxer obtain stuff at an accelerated rate over an account not used by a multiboxer?

That's the dumbest response I've heard on this issue. (sorry don't get to be the dumbest post on the forums.) What would a non-automated multiboxer be able to pull?

Or flip it around... if botting was legal, anybody could bot, so it would be perfectly fair, so that must therefore be the best solution! Dumb logic is dumb.

point is, tho, the moment a multiboxer starts to automate, a thing that software like ISBoxer doesn't, no matter how you try to pull it since each and every input requires someone to be at the helm, then there you have a bot, and that's illegal and it should be put down like the rabid dog it is.

A multiboxer, even using if ISBoxer, is not botting, it's not automating a damn thing, and not obtaining stuff an accelerated rate, 40 accounts still pull out the same isk as 40 accounts, have the same cost as 40 accounts, and are not getting stuff at an accelerated rate.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Solecist Project's Alt
Doomheim
#95 - 2014-05-03 07:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project's Alt
Quote:

It doesn't.

A player using 40+ accounts with multibox programs obtains stuff at an accelerated rate over a player using 40+ accounts without multibox programs.

I have no idea what you guys are even arguing - you're a goon so probably just trolling - but thought I'd clear that up.

No he doesn't in the sense that's relevant.

As i noted somewhere else in this thread,
the acceleration is about avoiding the time wasted for user input.

Keystrokes, mouse movement, clicks, looking at the overview to make decisions.

A bot wastes significantly less to almost no time for this,
while even for a multiboxed fleet
the user still wastes the time for the input.

As CCP does not recognize players, but in game pilots,
every pilot wastes the same amount of time.

To CCP it doesn't matter if the pilots give all their stuff to one specific pilot in the group.

Glad I could clear that up for you.
Feel free to petition it and get it confirmed by a GM.

Or just stick to your opinions and continue this silly thread.


Oh and potatoe... multiboxing doesn't need macros.
No idea where you got that from.
Macros accelerate the users gameplay and aren't allowed.

*sips chai latte*
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2014-05-03 07:43:48 UTC
Solecist Project's Alt wrote:
Macros accelerate the users gameplay and aren't allowed.



hmm.. there's an exception to that rule: Logitech G15 keyboards for example. CCP stated that gaming keyboard macros were ok.


ot at least, they were ok a couple of years back.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Solecist Project's Alt
Doomheim
#97 - 2014-05-03 07:51:02 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Solecist Project's Alt wrote:
Macros accelerate the users gameplay and aren't allowed.



hmm.. there's an exception to that rule: Logitech G15 keyboards for example. CCP stated that gaming keyboard macros were ok.


ot at least, they were ok a couple of years back.

Oh yeah you're right, they made some exceptions for these kind of keyboards,
but I doubt they grant a lot of freedom,
because that would undermine CCPs whole point.
Belt Scout
Thread Lockaholics Anonymous
#98 - 2014-05-03 08:04:12 UTC
Sibius Aidon wrote:
I've seen them, my corpmates have seen them, and I'm sure others have as well, but I can't help but notice these guys going around with 41 accounts with some sort of macro program to control all of them at once. They hit up all the ice belts, and suck it dry before anyone else could get a fair share. This type of playing is unfair, and at the very least anyone with this many accounts should be required to be in a corporation, so everyone that wants to pod that guy a few times over for hogging all the ice can wardec him over and over again legally. That, or I guess the bulk of EVE's population are these guys with 41 accounts going at the same time and regulating them means EVE goes bye-bye. either way, it's a little unfair.

At the very least make it so that a given player cannot have more than 5 accounts in a given system at the same time.


o/ Was that you in Osmon local bitching away as I chewed up your white glaze in 4 minutes?

Just to address some of your concerns from that time,

1. Yes, ISKoxer is legal.
2. No, you cannot r*pe me, or my pets.
3. Stop being poor.

Twisted

They say most of your brain shuts down on the EvE forums. All but the impatient side, and the sarcastic side. No wonder I'm still awake.

**This IS my main so STFU.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#99 - 2014-05-03 08:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
mkint wrote:
didn't I hear something about devs discussing this internally? Software-assisted multiboxing? I know the precedent is that it's legal and kosher. Would definitely be good to hear some dev feedback on the topic though. Except they are probably all drunk off their asses by now, and probably won't even look at the forums until Tuesday.

The last official feedback I saw from the Dev's on this was that it was outside the bounds they were comfortable with, they would tolerate the program but watch it's users closely. ISboxer is capable of doing things that are fully outside the rules due to the nature of it's code.
They purposely left the door open to shut it's use down at any point, on a per case basis or as a whole, at any time. It all depends of if they notice a trend for people to use it to blatantly step past their line in the sand.
It actually kind of falls into that same category of "this is technically a no-no, but we won't ban you for it unless you try to screw us" that certain other 3rd party software falls into.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#100 - 2014-05-03 08:54:42 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Isboxer uses macros to achieve it's ends.
In what way?