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Summary of Concerns (Let's consolidate)

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-05-02 23:22:10 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:

3) Nope. More, smaller releases = same content. Current 6 month dev cycle, something not ready, it has to ship anyway, because otherwise it has to wait another whole half-year. The dream of monthly drop, something not ready, pull it and hold to next month. You get same content, just some a little earlier and some a little later. The reality is that when one thing pushes, it cascades into more getting delayed. Also, there is no regression cycle between code complete and ship date, so more bugs ship.

Think of it this way. Industry changes are NOT going to be ready June 4. Should they ship June 4? Hold until December? Hold the entire release until July? OR... ship everything in June except industry, then ship industry in July? Industry shipping in July is not "more content".

seagull said devs wouldn't be pressured into only choosing to develop content that'd fit into the current dev cycle, so they might be able to prioritise features they couldn't have before. i think. i stayed up all night and i'm tired
Solecist Project's Alt
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-05-02 23:23:51 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
Solecist Project's Alt wrote:
I like that my face exactly works as it should,
while yours does exactly ... nothing.


It's you who should change your face, not me. :)


<--------------------------- My face

Your tears -----> \______________________________________________/


No need to get personal mofo - I love your face. It just gives me nightmares. Jeez you are touchy for an alt.

Relax and get back on topic.

Christ. Someone needs to book into a clinic.

You're right.
I'm sorry.
Back on topic.

Summary*


That being said...

Let's see how the duke boys CCP get outta this.

What I don't get is why CCP didn't keep up the scharade for longer,
to milk the DUSTies even more. They could have perfectly gotten away with it
if they had just done it right... but instead, they create this mess.

Marketing stunt for the PC MASTER RACE ?
From the reactions ...
... which were indeed foreseeable ...
... it could as well be.

Crowd Control Productions.

A hilarious thought. xD
CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
Negative Feedback
#43 - 2014-05-02 23:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: CompleteFailure
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:

2) Freighters are being changed in a manner which would allow cap ships to be brought into high sec.

Based on what we know this *is* the case. Several people have suggested that there will be a stealth nerf of some sort to prevent this, but it dovetails too neatly with number 1 for my taste, so we have to consider that they're going to change the rules about cap ships in high sec.


Not necessarily. Even if a packaged capital did fit due to the addition of cargo rigs, it'd be easy enough to restrict jumping from low sec to high sec through a gate by checking the cargo hold first. The functionality already exists (try flying around high sec with drugs in your hold Blink).

**EDIT**

Glad I'm not the only one who saw this right away.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4541798#post4541798
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#44 - 2014-05-02 23:26:50 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:


1) We'll see. I doubt it.
2) HUGE assumptions on your part.
3) Nope. More, smaller releases = same content. Current 6 month dev cycle, something not ready, it has to ship anyway, because otherwise it has to wait another whole half-year. The dream of monthly drop, something not ready, pull it and hold to next month. You get same content, just some a little earlier and some a little later. The reality is that when one thing pushes, it cascades into more getting delayed. Also, there is no regression cycle between code complete and ship date, so more bugs ship.

Think of it this way. Industry changes are NOT going to be ready June 4. Should they ship June 4? Hold until December? Hold the entire release until July? OR... ship everything in June except industry, then ship industry in July? Industry shipping in July is not "more content".

4) Not as bad as WoD.



1) I doubt it too, but you're right, we'll see.

2) Not really. Even just looking at things that are in theory destructible in highsec, there are several, such as large POS, that are not really destructible for practical reasons. This inhibits PvP. I again remind that one of the stated goals is to increase conflict. If you're allowing in Cap ships, this results in an increase in PvP around stations.

Since the number of stations will likely increase with the Summer Expansion, cap ships in high sec is really the only logical response.

3) I understand what you're saying, but having seen them try something similar in the distant past, I'm not sold.

4) and just think, the same guy is running EvE's development now...
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#45 - 2014-05-02 23:26:53 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Based on what we know this *is* the case.

No it isn't.

Oh god.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#46 - 2014-05-02 23:27:38 UTC
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-05-02 23:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
TedStriker wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:

3) More new content per year.

I'm not opposed to this in the least, but as an IT professional, I have to call into question how effective QA can be with this sort of time table. Let's be honest, CCP has trouble with game breaking bugs with just two major content releases a year. Firing off new content like a machinegun strikes me as being a bit foolhardy in that context.



Why do i always start to giggle when someone claims to be an "it professional" (whatever that means....its a..broad field you know?) and then fails to see that in large releases you can't test dependencies like you can with "on the go" releases of finished stuff.
Its way better not to throw everything together 2 weeks before you have to release it.



Well, I am an IT professional. By that I mean been a computer programer for 25 years. I currently work for a MAJor software company on a high performance, probabilistic matching master data application. I've worked at 3 companies that have moved to Agile.

Phase 1)
Agile does not mean NO analysis and design. It means just in time analysis and design. While devs are working on one story, PMs will be fleshing out requirements, and architects will be working on design for the next story n the backlog. That way, as soon as dev finishes one story, the next is ready to go.

Phase 2)
Requirements and design were not ready, because the heavy work load on PM caused half of them to quit, and the half that remain are too busy interfacing with stake holders. All PM does is write the high level story, then the developer guesses what that means, codes up a solution, and presents it in an iteration review. Stakeholders say it is all wrong, and PMs update stories while developers try to have in fixes. At the end of 5 months, QA is given a month to regression test to make sure this hacking didn't have unintended consequences.

Phase 3)
People leave out of frustration. Profits are not there so they are replaced in China or India. High turn-over means it is hard to recreate the knowledge base once enjoyed pre-agile. Cut cost your way to profitability.

Phase 4)
Stuff is simply not getting done on time because 1) we don't understand the issues, 2) didn't do proper requirements and design, 3) lost our best people. Choice is to hold features 6 months to next release, ship in suck condition, hold entire release a month or two... or..... Go to more frequent drops. That way, when something is not done, we can hold it a month without holding the entire release. What happens is that any semblance of regression test is finally eliminated. Test the new feature in isolation, and hope it didn't break anything else.

Phase 5)
Bankruptcy, write off bad debts, clean up balance sheet by writing off dead projects. Refocus on core profitable businesses.


I have only been to Phase 5 one time.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#48 - 2014-05-02 23:33:03 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Based on what we know this *is* the case.

No it isn't.


Yeah, I read that, and I don't believe him. As you'd know if you read to the end of the thread you linked. It fits too well, and we all know that if they're getting ready to do something that will cause a fuss, they Obfuscate.
Erufen Rito
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-05-02 23:33:36 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:

3) More new content per year.

I'm not opposed to this in the least, but as an IT professional, I have to call into question how effective QA can be with this sort of time table. Let's be honest, CCP has trouble with game breaking bugs with just two major content releases a year. Firing off new content like a machinegun strikes me as being a bit foolhardy in that context.



Why do i always start to giggle when someone claims to be an "it professional" (whatever that means....its a..broad field you know?) and then fails to see that in large releases you can't test dependencies like you can with "on the go" releases of finished stuff.
Its way better not to throw everything together 2 weeks before you have to release it.



Well, I am an IT professional. By that I mean been a computer programer for 25 years. I currently work for a MAJor software company on a high performance, probabilistic matching master data application. I've worked at 3 companies that have moved to Agile.

Phase 1)
Agile does not mean NO analysis and design. It means just in time analysis and design. While devs are working on one story, PMs will be fleshing out requirements, and architects will be working on design. That wan, as soon as dev finishes one story, the next is ready to go.

Phase 2)
Requirements and design were not ready, because the heavy work load on PM caused half of them to quit, and the half that remain are too busy interfacing with stake holders. All PM does is write the high level story, then the developer guesses what that means, codes up a solution, and presents it in an iteration review. Stakeholders say it is all wrong, and PMs update stories while developers try to have in fixes. At the end of 5 months, QA is given a month to regression test to make sure this hacking didn't have unintended consequences.

Phase 3)
People leave out of frustration. Profits are not there so they are replaced in China or India. High turn-over means it is hard to recreate the knowledge base once enjoyed pre-agile. Cut cost your way to profitability.

Phase 4)
Stuff is simply not getting done on time because 1) we don't understand the issues, 2) didn't do proper requirements and design, 3) lost our best people. Choice is to hold features 6 months to next release, ship in suck condition, hold entire release a month or two... or..... Go to more frequent drops. That way, when something is not done, we can hold it a month without holding the entire release. What happens is that any semblance of regression test is finally eliminated. Test the new feature in isolation, and hope it didn't break anything else.

Phase 5)
Bankruptcy, write off bad debts, clean up balance sheet by writing off dead projects. Refocus on core profitable businesses.


I have only been to Phase 5 one time.

I'm an IT professional too. Ask my grandma about her magicbox and Dee vee dee arr issues.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-05-02 23:33:40 UTC
Given my experience of CCP I would probably run at this point.

It's not that I don't believe them, I love the way that they work, but there is no serious way that DUST can work. It's an outdated platform, 5 years after launch, in the light of new technology against a PC market that always wants good tech.

Aaaaaaand relax.
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#51 - 2014-05-02 23:35:57 UTC
FYI:

This thread is now the designated consolidated thread on discussing concerns or offering constructive negative feedback on the stuff announced during the Fanfest keynote. Any other threads on the same topic will be locked as redundant. Please report them if you see them.

Thanks guys!

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-05-02 23:37:51 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Based on what we know this *is* the case.

No it isn't.


Yeah, I read that, and I don't believe him. As you'd know if you read to the end of the thread you linked. It fits too well, and we all know that if they're getting ready to do something that will cause a fuss, they Obfuscate.

oh in that case this thread isn't going anywhere

grr ccp!

grrrrr!
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2014-05-02 23:42:36 UTC
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
FYI:

This thread is now the designated consolidated thread on discussing concerns or offering constructive negative feedback on the stuff announced during the Fanfest keynote. Any other threads on the same topic will be locked as redundant. Please report them if you see them.

Thanks guys!


That is a little bit ridiculous - there are rather a lot of points to be raised. Might want to check with the overlords on this one.

New ships thread, locked, new indy locked, new ... you get the idea. You can't just shut up shop because people want to talk about stuff.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#54 - 2014-05-02 23:43:25 UTC
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
constructive negative feedback

Please define this.

Consensus is that anyone who disagrees with anything on the forums is a troll.

Are you...saying what I think youre saying?!??! Because you may have just become my favorite ISD of all time.... ::mancrush::

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#55 - 2014-05-02 23:43:58 UTC
Well if this is a thread about real concerns, my concern is that the buff to industry (mainly accessibility) is going to cause inflation which current isk faucets aren't balanced against. I think CCP may take a more PvE-centric approach to ship balancing in order to offset the imbalance in isk generation.

Oh god.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#56 - 2014-05-02 23:44:20 UTC
None of this concerns me, the only issue i had really, was with how legion was announced. I think CCP dropped the ball big time, it was a lame way to do it. I posted elswhere how they should of handled that, it would of made some people not as grumpy, but they should of either just flat out said 'dust is dead, long live legion' or 'due to the fact that legion is not a game yet, here is how we will get dust to legion, here is the new crap you are getting, oh and we are going to do this with your dust accounts'

But they didn't, they neither let people have the closure that the game they play is gone, nor did they show of a possible transition/path incase the game they are making doesn't pan out. They left dust in this limbo, of its going to get work or not. They screwed thenselves out of a bit more money, but meh.

Dust needed to change big time. I think Rebranding and making it better, is a good move. The annoucement just sucked.

It would be like if CCP next year showed there new game Adam. And then did nothing with eve and did not tell us if eve would convert to adam, but adam was a better fixed version of eve. We'd all be pissed.

They really needed to handle this better. And i am hoping they have some answers at CCP Presents tomorrow. But i really just want to see if they are going to tie it all together.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#57 - 2014-05-02 23:44:28 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:

oh in that case this thread isn't going anywhere

grr ccp!

grrrrr!


Well, to be blunt, they said there would be no layoffs at Atlanta.. three days before layoffs at Atlanta. So, yeah, when I get a single CCP guy saying something apparently at odds with what they're apparently trying to do, I do take that with a grain of salt.

Doc Fury wrote:

Lock Probability:
███████████▒ 95%
FuryBot™ 0.86




ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
FYI:

This thread is now the designated consolidated thread on discussing concerns or offering constructive negative feedback on the stuff announced during the Fanfest keynote. Any other threads on the same topic will be locked as redundant.



Doc Fury was just ganked by ISD.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#58 - 2014-05-02 23:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

oh in that case this thread isn't going anywhere

grr ccp!

grrrrr!


Well, to be blunt, they said there would be no layoffs at Atlanta.. three days before layoffs at Atlanta. So, yeah, when I get a single CCP guy saying something apparently at odds with what they're apparently trying to do, I do take that with a grain of salt.

Doc Fury wrote:

Lock Probability:
███████████▒ 95%
FuryBot™ 0.86




ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
FYI:

This thread is now the designated consolidated thread on discussing concerns or offering constructive negative feedback on the stuff announced during the Fanfest keynote. Any other threads on the same topic will be locked as redundant.



Doc Fury was just ganked by ISD.


I should have plugged my 5% EM hole.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-05-02 23:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Well, to be blunt, they said there would be no layoffs at Atlanta.. three days before layoffs at Atlanta. So, yeah, when I get a single CCP guy saying something apparently at odds with what they're apparently trying to do, I do take that with a grain of salt.

that was for IRL reasons as i imagine a) internal matters had to be sorted out before the announcement because ccp is helping those laid off find new jobs and b) it's better to announce stuff on a monday so that community team can manage the response

this is very different. highsec is highsec, and a dev is assuring us months in advance of a fake spaceships gameplay feature

e: it's entirely unreasonable to judge a comment's truthfulness by an unrelated untruthful comment
Erufen Rito
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-05-02 23:49:10 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

oh in that case this thread isn't going anywhere

grr ccp!

grrrrr!


Well, to be blunt, they said there would be no layoffs at Atlanta.. three days before layoffs at Atlanta. So, yeah, when I get a single CCP guy saying something apparently at odds with what they're apparently trying to do, I do take that with a grain of salt.

Doc Fury wrote:

Lock Probability:
███████████▒ 95%
FuryBot™ 0.86




ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
FYI:

This thread is now the designated consolidated thread on discussing concerns or offering constructive negative feedback on the stuff announced during the Fanfest keynote. Any other threads on the same topic will be locked as redundant.



Doc Fury was just ganked by ISD.


I should have plugged my 5% EM hole.

I am not sure why this made me laugh.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165