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Crime & Punishment

 
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Noir. [Est. 2008]

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Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-05-01 21:07:33 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Reppyk wrote:
I

Noir. :
- revealed the contract too (never, ever do that, even if the customer did it first) ;
- made a shady deal with the target (allying against Lemmings, really ? there is no excuse) ;
I am too lazy (and I don't give much of a ****, too) to check the KBs, if there was good faith running the contract or not.

I'm throwing virtual poo at both of you.

-We didn't reveal the contract till Goblin went off the handle declaring he would not pay and blocking (literally in game, not allowed to contact him at all) any attempt to discuss the issue. At that point he's a scammer not a customer and is being treated accordingly
-We didn't make any deals with the target(s).

I would agree with you 1000% Reppy if either of those things were the case. I've been in the biz over 8 years, I know what not to do.

You should check the kb ;) In good faith to both clients we put CFC through hell.




Nice freighter kill on your killboard
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38430399/

and funny how you include Gevlon as part of the CFC?
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38423392/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38426611/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38426617/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38437902/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38440467/

Yea great job!

Clenz
The Forgotten Order
#142 - 2014-05-01 21:45:11 UTC
Joseph Soprano wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Reppyk wrote:
I

Noir. :
- revealed the contract too (never, ever do that, even if the customer did it first) ;
- made a shady deal with the target (allying against Lemmings, really ? there is no excuse) ;
I am too lazy (and I don't give much of a ****, too) to check the KBs, if there was good faith running the contract or not.

I'm throwing virtual poo at both of you.

-We didn't reveal the contract till Goblin went off the handle declaring he would not pay and blocking (literally in game, not allowed to contact him at all) any attempt to discuss the issue. At that point he's a scammer not a customer and is being treated accordingly
-We didn't make any deals with the target(s).

I would agree with you 1000% Reppy if either of those things were the case. I've been in the biz over 8 years, I know what not to do.

You should check the kb ;) In good faith to both clients we put CFC through hell.




Nice freighter kill on your killboard
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38430399/

and funny how you include Gevlon as part of the CFC?
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38423392/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38426611/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38426617/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38437902/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38440467/

Yea great job!



That Freighter went suspect looting a wreck, who would NOT shoot a suspect freighter? Additionally, notice there are no goons on that kill mail. To the best of my knowledge, there was no arrangement made to only shoot goons.

TBH we did not even know that was Gevlon's alt. Again, to my knowledge, there was no stipulation on not attacking anyone else other then the goons. What we knew was that Gevlon cut his ties from "leading" Lemmings quite a while ago and that they should be treated as any other merc group.

Every other contract we are instructed on who is friendly, who to group with, what to not do, ect. Why should this one be different? I think the problem is a lot of people see Gevlon as still being the leader of the Lemmings, we do not. We see them as just another "mercenary" group.

During our last contract with Galvon, he was VERY, EXTREMELY, AMAZINGLY Specific on what he did and did not want us to do. Who was blue, who to fleet with, how to take the screenshots he wanted, how many POCOs to hit a day, when to attack, when not to attack. Why would we not expect the same this time around?
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#143 - 2014-05-01 22:29:00 UTC
Backing up NOIR's validity as mercs, these guys know their **** and deserve respect for keeping it alive this long! Props NOIR and many more contracts in the future, enjoy :D
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#144 - 2014-05-01 22:51:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph IX Basarab
Futune Circinus wrote:
This is not about the letter of the contract. That is irrelevant as we have no legal system to try it in. This is about public perception and professional courtesy. To the public, there is no doubt that you knew what the Goblin thought he was buying, and yet you did not inform him that this was not what you intended to deliver.

The reality of this claim is irrelevant, the cat is out of the bag, and the public is now worried that you might try to somehow screw them over on a technicality. "You hired us to defend the pos when it came out of reinforce, and we did defend it by destroying the attacking fleet, but you didn't include a clause saying that we couldn't also shoot the pos!" and variations.

The fact that public opinion is with the Goblin, one of the least popular people in Eve, in this matter should be a huge warning sign. You need to approach this not as a contractual disagreement but a PR disaster. The extortion attempt did not improve things, to the public this looks like an admission of guilt.

I know this is none of my business, but I like your brand, and I recently pointed a new player that wanted to become a merc towards your academy. Don't mess this up please.


Seems to be a pretty common sentiment. I mean if you want to do the "well technically" thing, yes you can. With that logic X can hire me to join their fleet and kill Y, and Y can hire me to kill X. I kill Y and then X while still in fleet and say "well technically." But it looks really unclassy.


Edit:

http://evenews24.com/2014/05/02/seraph-ix-basarab-the-noirgoblin-contract-dispute/
John Ending
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2014-05-02 04:12:54 UTC
So if one unhinged pubbie has a problem with the services he received since NOIR. was established in 2008 does that negate all their work? I think not. It is the duty of capsuleers everywhere, high, low and null to ignore this idiot.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#146 - 2014-05-02 04:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlon Goblin
Clenz wrote:

During our last contract with Galvon, he was VERY, EXTREMELY, AMAZINGLY Specific on what he did and did not want us to do. Who was blue, who to fleet with, how to take the screenshots he wanted, how many POCOs to hit a day, when to attack, when not to attack. Why would we not expect the same this time around?


Because last contract was extraordinary and hard to define. It was practically a blueballing/propaganda campaign against the highsec lapdogs of Goons where even the readability of the screenshot mattered.

Burn Jita is simple as a rock and even highsec miners know what to do: jam them when they go GCC. It was not possible to screw it up. I mean literally. When I was ganking miners, random highsec miners with zero KB history put up better fight than you did against CFC!

You didn't "screw it up". You intentionally scammed me because CFC (or rich CFC member individual) paid more. I hope you didn't want that titan anyway filthy scumbags (in-game, IRL you must be great guys, I can't wait to hear you speak while drunk during Fanfest)!

John Ending wrote:
So if one unhinged pubbie has a problem with the services he received since NOIR. was established in 2008 does that negate all their work? I think not. It is the duty of capsuleers everywhere, high, low and null to ignore this idiot.

Yet another satisfied target! Maybe CFC should publish an official statement that Noir did great job against them and they recommend everyone to hire them against CFC!

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
John Ending
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2014-05-02 04:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: John Ending
I watched Noir warp onto our perch and kill idiots with killrights all weekend long while Marmite and Lemmings hid in Amarr you big dumb babby, which is a lot more than jamming would have done.
Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2014-05-02 05:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Joseph Soprano
Clenz wrote:
Joseph Soprano wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Reppyk wrote:
I

Noir. :
- revealed the contract too (never, ever do that, even if the customer did it first) ;
- made a shady deal with the target (allying against Lemmings, really ? there is no excuse) ;
I am too lazy (and I don't give much of a ****, too) to check the KBs, if there was good faith running the contract or not.

I'm throwing virtual poo at both of you.

-We didn't reveal the contract till Goblin went off the handle declaring he would not pay and blocking (literally in game, not allowed to contact him at all) any attempt to discuss the issue. At that point he's a scammer not a customer and is being treated accordingly
-We didn't make any deals with the target(s).

I would agree with you 1000% Reppy if either of those things were the case. I've been in the biz over 8 years, I know what not to do.

You should check the kb ;) In good faith to both clients we put CFC through hell.




Nice freighter kill on your killboard
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38430399/

and funny how you include Gevlon as part of the CFC?
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38423392/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38426611/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38426617/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38437902/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/38440467/

Yea great job!



That Freighter went suspect looting a wreck, who would NOT shoot a suspect freighter? Additionally, notice there are no goons on that kill mail. To the best of my knowledge, there was no arrangement made to only shoot goons.

TBH we did not even know that was Gevlon's alt. Again, to my knowledge, there was no stipulation on not attacking anyone else other then the goons. What we knew was that Gevlon cut his ties from "leading" Lemmings quite a while ago and that they should be treated as any other merc group.

Every other contract we are instructed on who is friendly, who to group with, what to not do, ect. Why should this one be different? I think the problem is a lot of people see Gevlon as still being the leader of the Lemmings, we do not. We see them as just another "mercenary" group.

During our last contract with Galvon, he was VERY, EXTREMELY, AMAZINGLY Specific on what he did and did not want us to do. Who was blue, who to fleet with, how to take the screenshots he wanted, how many POCOs to hit a day, when to attack, when not to attack. Why would we not expect the same this time around?


To shoot ones employer once is a misfortune
To shoot him twice looks like carelessness
To shoot him a third time is a bit stupid
To shoot him a fourth times is .....
To shoot him five times is ......


and then to want paying for shooting him :)

Didn't know he was his association with the Lemminings????
Didn't know he didn't want you working for the cfc forces?????

Mail sent to Alekseyev Karrde
''
???
From: Gevlon Goblin
Sent: 2014.04.25 11:31
To: Alekseyev Karrde,

Hi,

War: Darwins Lemmings vs. Goonswarm Federation
War: The Marmite Collective vs. Goonswarm Federation

I see you in both of the wars as ally to the Goons.
What the hell is going on? We were negotiating a contract against Goons. I thought such double-crossing clients is bad for business. I really hope it was just an act of a rogue director.
''

Received Friday 25th, before Jita really got started. Before you repeatedly targeted his 'Goblin' character.

Also you seem pretty clear linking the his blog saying you knew he'd distanced himself from the Lemmings and yet completely ignored the 50+ posts mentioning his alt Botslayer Goblin???? Missed his post about him wanted to use ecm to thwart the cfc, but that is in the contact mails he sent.

You also seem to ignore the fact that on the podcast Alek 'lied' saying the neither client had a problem with the conflict of interest.
Vayeate Marquise
Doomheim
#149 - 2014-05-02 06:59:52 UTC
wow shame on you noir, and shame on you alek for lying, how pathetic

Problem? ~.~
Pepizaur
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2014-05-02 11:03:28 UTC
Eve-O Forums: Classy as ****.

You're all ******* ********, I'm ******** for posting and you're all dumber for having read this thread and my post.

NAH FUCKIT, ENGAGE THE HYPERBOLE DRIVES, READY THE BASELESS ACCUSATIONOMETER, FIRE AUTISM CANNONS ACROSS THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM! GO GO GO GO!
Clenz
The Forgotten Order
#151 - 2014-05-02 13:24:24 UTC
Joseph Soprano wrote:


To shoot ones employer once is a misfortune
To shoot him twice looks like carelessness
To shoot him a third time is a bit stupid
To shoot him a fourth times is .....
To shoot him five times is ......


and then to want paying for shooting him :)

Didn't know he was his association with the Lemminings????
Didn't know he didn't want you working for the cfc forces?????

Mail sent to Alekseyev Karrde
''
???
From: Gevlon Goblin
Sent: 2014.04.25 11:31
To: Alekseyev Karrde,

Hi,

War: Darwins Lemmings vs. Goonswarm Federation
War: The Marmite Collective vs. Goonswarm Federation

I see you in both of the wars as ally to the Goons.
What the hell is going on? We were negotiating a contract against Goons. I thought such double-crossing clients is bad for business. I really hope it was just an act of a rogue director.
''

Received Friday 25th, before Jita really got started. Before you repeatedly targeted his 'Goblin' character.

Also you seem pretty clear linking the his blog saying you knew he'd distanced himself from the Lemmings and yet completely ignored the 50+ posts mentioning his alt Botslayer Goblin???? Missed his post about him wanted to use ecm to thwart the cfc, but that is in the contact mails he sent.

You also seem to ignore the fact that on the podcast Alek 'lied' saying the neither client had a problem with the conflict of interest.


The important timestamp is the one where Gevlon decided to cut off communication from us. By the time I had learned that was his alt, this had already occurred. At that point, who would not shoot a valid war target, as well as, someone who is refusing to pay for his contract? I can easily turn it around to; why would he continue to undock without sorting out the standings with us first, it is not like the outcome was going to magically change. If he had maintained communication and payed us, he probably would have be reimbursed for his losses.

Just because I provided a link to his blog does not mean that I follow his blog. The only time I have read any of Gevlon's blogs was during our contract time with him, even then, I only focused on the blogs that were relevant to us, Noir. So yes, I never saw any of his "50+ posts" stating that was his alt or anything about him wanting to use ECM. To me, ECM was discussed, but never settled on. Maybe if Gevlon had maintained communication this could have been sorted out early into the contract, but instead he blocks everyone that attempted to contact him from out group. We were not the ones that cut the cord, he was.

Where did I say that Gelvon and Lemmings were not associated? I said that according to his blog, he is no longer leading them and that they should be treated as any other merc group.

We were NOT working with CFC forces. We never grouped with them or shared intel with them. We actively hunted them, probing their safe spots, killing their pods at planets after their ganks, ect. We really worked a lot harder to kill the goons then any of the war targets. For the most part, we only attacked war targets when we ran into them, which was while we were pursuing the goons.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#152 - 2014-05-02 14:16:15 UTC
May I request changing the topic title to "Noir. 2008-2014"?

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
Oshia Launay
Galactic Fringe Inc
#153 - 2014-05-02 14:22:14 UTC
Clenz wrote:
The important timestamp is the one where Gevlon decided to cut off communication from us. By the time I had learned that was his alt, this had already occurred. At that point, who would not shoot a valid war target, as well as, someone who is refusing to pay for his contract?

Someone still expecting to be paid as Noir apparently was.

Quote:
We were NOT working with CFC forces. We never grouped with them or shared intel with them. We actively hunted them, probing their safe spots, killing their pods at planets after their ganks, ect. We really worked a lot harder to kill the goons then any of the war targets. For the most part, we only attacked war targets when we ran into them, which was while we were pursuing the goons.

Shooting CFC's war target can hardly be interpreted as NOT working with/for CFC forces, but more importantly, it meant working against your other client. You can fake surprise and claim you thought Gevlon and Lemmings parted ways, and what not, but frankly, it's not a remotely believable stance.

Too much double talk and bad faith here, and that smells of a premeditated act.
Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2014-05-02 14:56:20 UTC
Clenz wrote:
The important timestamp is the one where Gevlon decided to cut off communication from us.


Actually your thinking of the one he sent a day later.

But the point is even though you knew the client was very unhappy you continued on regardless even though your client expressed serious concern at pretty much the beginning of burn jita. Why did you do that?

'At that point, who would not shoot a valid war target, as well as, someone who is refusing to pay for his contract?'
So just to clarify you knew you were shooting Gevlon then dispite the earlier denials?
Clenz
The Forgotten Order
#155 - 2014-05-02 16:00:31 UTC
Joseph Soprano wrote:
Clenz wrote:
The important timestamp is the one where Gevlon decided to cut off communication from us.


Actually your thinking of the one he sent a day later.

But the point is even though you knew the client was very unhappy you continued on regardless even though your client expressed serious concern at pretty much the beginning of burn jita. Why did you do that?

'At that point, who would not shoot a valid war target, as well as, someone who is refusing to pay for his contract?'
So just to clarify you knew you were shooting Gevlon then dispite the earlier denials?



And what is that time and date of that? The same day that we killed him? I'm pretty sure the conversation broke-down pretty quickly, but neither you or I are the parties directly involved in the communications.

The point is that the client blocked us while we were talking about the issue, not allowing my leadership to continue the discussion and work things out. Instead of communicating he blocked anyone that contacted him. Why should we change our actions when we are told "you are not getting paid" and then are blocked from communication?

You are right, I should have said "I found out that I shot and killed Gevlon's alt after I had attacked him"... and not speak for other's knowledge. But those statements are meant to be see as separate statements with different contexts.

One is of my personal knowledge of learning of his alt. The second statement's context is that after he blocked us and refused to pay us, why would we then decide not to shoot him?

How about you answer a few of my questions now?
Sivor Detmen
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction
-affliction-
#156 - 2014-05-02 16:54:09 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:


-We didn't reveal the contract till Goblin went off the handle declaring he would not pay and blocking (literally in game, not allowed to contact him at all) any attempt to discuss the issue. At that point he's a scammer not a customer and is being treated accordingly
-We didn't make any deals with the target(s).

I would agree with you 1000% Reppy if either of those things were the case. I've been in the biz over 8 years, I know what not to do.

You should check the kb ;) In good faith to both clients we put CFC through hell.






You have been 8 years in the Merc community and still you take both contracts knowing for sure that one of the clients wouldn't be happy (otherwise you would have asked him if it was ok to also ally GSF, the same way you asked GSF about Gevlon's contract).

If you had also asked Gevlon if he was ok about you protecting GSF while being payed to kill GSF ships and he gave you the green light, then both clients would have equal treatment. But this was not the case. One was clearly priviledged at information level, regardless of what your killboards say.


"Because we are MERCENARIES. And unless you actually PAY us, we could give a flying **** about your conspiracy theories, your "side," or your ideology."


Because you are mercenaries you should know better than to take 2 conflicting contracts and revealing client information.


Sivor
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#157 - 2014-05-02 17:10:06 UTC
It's really about showing that you care about the service you provide. All you are saying is "we do what we do and we don't care how our clients feel." Ugh
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#158 - 2014-05-02 17:17:09 UTC
Sivor Detmen wrote:


Because you are mercenaries you should know better than to take 2 conflicting contracts and revealing client information.



Yes, we do. Which is why we took and continue to take great care not to do those things.

Again: http://noirmercs.com/content.php?3455-Burn-Goblin

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#159 - 2014-05-02 17:20:36 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
It's really about showing that you care about the service you provide. All you are saying is "we do what we do and we don't care how our clients feel." Ugh

I cared a lot about how Gevlon felt until his last words before blocking me was that he was going to scam out my alliance. At that point he's no longer an employer, he's a contract breaker.

Good faith efforts to contact Goblin even after that he has either ignored or openly mocked on his blog.

If anything Noir. has gone above and beyond the call to be patient with Goblin and try to bring him to the table to talk it out. At this point, though, I'm growing increasingly convinced he was negotiating out of bad faith to begin with.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#160 - 2014-05-02 17:27:20 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
It's really about showing that you care about the service you provide. All you are saying is "we do what we do and we don't care how our clients feel." Ugh

I cared a lot about how Gevlon felt until his last words before blocking me was that he was going to scam out my alliance. At that point he's no longer an employer, he's a contract breaker.

Good faith efforts to contact Goblin even after that he has either ignored or openly mocked on his blog.

If anything Noir. has gone above and beyond the call to be patient with Goblin and try to bring him to the table to talk it out. At this point, though, I'm growing increasingly convinced he was negotiating out of bad faith to begin with.



He was negotiating out of bad faith? Are you stealing Goblin's tin foil for your own hat now? Come on...

The mass community backlash and the fact that people are actually defending Goblin should tell you something. As far as I and most of the Eve community following this issue is concerned, you defaulted on the contract first the moment you took two conracts of conflicting interest. If you've been doing this for 8 years you should have known that there would be an issue. So you either intentionally double dipped to get both contract payments or you're honestly not nearly as qualified to do this job as you think you are.