Player Features and Ideas Discussion

If you cut off the oil in nullsec, they'll just get it from highsec instead.

Sorry but that has all changed for the betterment of eve as a whole -


Balancing CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie style;
Devs - Devs - Players - Players - Devs - Players - Devs - Players - Devs - Players



> I'll tell you a secret, the Ibis will soon be the go to ship for everything Eve. Don't tell anyone else though, don't want to spoil CCP Rises & CCP Fozzies big announcement.

Underlined section explains my opinion. On the other hand, with the upcoming changes, I can't help but think industry players will have more incentive to spread out. Taking into account that moving assets around will be more costly, it will point the game in a whole new direction. Local industries in low/null are going to get more attention because high sec will become a worse place to make profit.

Yes, the ice miner might get an income boost, but complaining about miners making ISK is comparable to a miner looking at a combat ship get changed from a 5% RoF bonus to a 5% damage bonus because it uses less ammunition and relies on industry ammo a bit less. I think most people agree that mining should be more interactive than it is right now.

As you noted: Increased cost = deterrent, and depending on just how many isotopes were being used by POS, it is plausible that their price will drop as the demand won't increase by a solid 50% and may in fact decrease from what it is right now if you take into consideration the deterrent factor. There's a lot of things like this that make me hold back final judgment, and I simply have to see TQ change to get a proper evaluation of this.

When it comes to dropping 70 more supers and carriers, as you put it.. Cost is not coming into it.. 1 Super is worth far more than the little extra needed for fuel. Plus if a fight has escalated to that degree, there are already hundreds of such ships on field.
Being both a carrier and dread capable pilot - we don't use them anywhere near as much as a lot of us would like.
There are a couple of groups who hold capital supremacy now and will continue to do so, these changes will help them a great deal as far as this goes.

Your right, Sov nul is very stagnant but the extra cost of using capitals is not going to change that. What it will do is encourage everyone to turtle up and simply protect what they have.

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You won't engage a "roaming group" for fear they have another fleet sitting on a titan waiting to jump in?? I have to ask, how big is the fleet you are in and how big is the "roaming fleet".
No offence but I know from experience when group A has 200 in fleet they will as quickly as possible engage B, enemy fleet of 50. That said, your happy to engage with odds of 4 to 1 in your favor but refuse to engage if the odds "might" be 4 to 1 against ???
There is nothing fair about Eve Pvp and using the excuse of - They might have backup so we can't fight, is just really, really sad. If your not prepared to lose it - Don't fly it.
If your too afraid to engage because they "might" have backup on a Titan somewhere - get more spies in enemy alliances, improve your intel.
If nothing else works for you, there is level 4 missions.

If renters want jump bridges, carriers or Titans, they provide their own, or pay someone to bring theirs. I thought it fairly common knowledge among nul dwellers - Renters, rent systems, that rent rarely if ever provides them with any sort of protection. Part of renting is, you protect your own. That is not to say if 1 nulblob invaded another's renter space with the intention of taking it over they would not go to protect it but as for protecting the renters themselves - probably not.


Adding to the cost to use capitals only hurts the small guy and simply makes the already dominant groups, more dominant.

what you're complaining about here mate's simply that 'they can have more people around to respond to you at any point that you do'

that's not poorly balanced power projection it's simply that they have a greater standing force than you do, and you have no means to block them from using it.

you want to fix projection make cynos time deployed structures like the ESS, mobile depot and inhibitor, remove instant activation cynos on ships and lo and behold suddenly your gang can actually block their hot drop by destroying the cyno structure before it activates.

the issue here isn't one of 'we can all move across the universe' it's 'we can't block other people from landing on us' - this is why the cyno nullifier was introduced in the first place - as a means to effect this.

Not when you can haul in your carrier all the stuff you need on the other side of eve - and the cost are equal almost to nothing.
Try moving your t2 ahac from one side of the eve to another.
Someone will kill you during this trip or you arrive to your destination few hours later.

Now try to move few different doctrines in a carrier using fleet cynochain.
You will be safely done in 10minutes.

Time is also isk, and if you don't have local industry - you or some logistic guy will just haul all needed stuff for you.

In WH there is no issue with power projection.
How long you could live in your WH when time needed for enemy to reinforce/ kill your pos is smaller than time needed for cap on carrier /super fleet to recharge?

Can you counter this?
No , check HED , and B-R and other large scale engagement.

Node will crash
Server will be bugged
This will be going on till the downtime.

I think CCP have god idea to escalate cost - the more this kind of fight will cost , the better.
The more ways for smaller groups to escalate cost for bloobs - the better.

When someone will pay fifth time 6 billion to rescue tackled carriers reaping pos in some forgotten lowsec in one week - the most likely this blob will remove this tower by them self , as it already costed more in terms of fuel than a year income from the moon.

Fozzie, why don't you just come out and say y'all at CCP want POS owners and cap ship pilots to fuel their activities with PLEX? I mean lets just cut to the meat here with isotope consumption. Lets just charge a fraction of a PLEX to run a tower or a jump capable ship. Because its already heading in that direction with all the industry costs going up and POS usage going UP (w/ no standings requirements, bonused mfg and research arrays, and better refining arrays than NPC stations) after the summer patch.

POS usage is NOT gonna go down, imo. Every corp is gonna be running a large hisec dickstar POS out in the sticks to do all their industry/research/copying/refining on the cheap and spread the fuel costs across all these activities. There's way more small corps out there that are gonna put up a POS after the patch - it will far outweigh the drop in research POS's. Plus there's considerably more prime real-estate opening up for anchoring.

I can't believe you're gonna put in this dramatic increase to isotope consumption without waiting to see how the market adjusts to the summer patch, based on forward-looking speculation that is complete derp guesswork at this point since there are so many changes, literally nobody knows how the player base will react. But I can tell you, most folks aren't buying the line that its to offset a drop in POS usage after the patch. So what is this about really? I see all the costs going up for all industry and reprocessing, and the nerf to ice spawns and the dramatic rise in POS fuel costs that resulted. I saw the stealth nerf to mining yields with the most heavily used barges (retriever/macks) taking a yield hit, and the other barges getting token buffs that don't come close to offsetting. Now this. I mean, JF's and Rorq haulers are getting totally *****d on. You literally cannot justify the ISK vs. risk equation of living in low or null without being able to jump freight your goods at reasonable cost.

So what's the end goal to all this, just come out with it. Is it to make the gameplay so expensive that we have to buy PLEX to maintain current lifestyles? I mean why is it that all the really big, far reaching changes lately have been resulting in massive cost-of-living increases? WTF is up with that?

You're gonna have to at least exclude JF's and Rorqs to placate the masses. Bare minimum.

Give him a minute to deal with fanfest, would you?

WOW - 1st sentence you said I was wrong then in the very next paragraph said I was right.. Your 40 man subcap fleet won't engage a 5 or 10 man roaming group for fear they have 40 more sitting on a titan?
So as long as the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor, you'll fight.

Please, how does that make you any different to anyone else..


Yes people will always go to save moons and until you grow some and decide it's worth the risk to take the moon for yourself, you have absolutely nothing to complain about.
This extra cost to move capitals may see a few less triage caps turn up to rep pos's but will see those carriers cyno fit so when your 40 man subcap fleet turn up for the "easy" capital kill they will get a 250 man subcap fleet drop on them.
This my friend is Eve Pvp. It is how it has been for years and no amount of cost increases will change that. Blob rules - He who can field the biggest blob wins the day.
Any alliance that would be silly enough to drop 60 capitals on a subcap fleet to safe 2 tackled carriers - does not deserve their capitals - 2 triage capitals tackled - you drop subcaps to save not more capitals (unless a couple more triage to help with reps).
And if you had 50 capitals dropped in your system and didn't bat fone, your either doing it wrong or don't know the right people.
50 capitals in 1 system to save 2 triage carriers - that's the next Asakia waiting to get called in.
Screw the cost of fuel to get there, I want on those kill mails so will come. As long as I have more kill mails than loss mails, cost has nothing to do with it.


Anthar; 1 thing I'm not quite clear on, you may be able to help. An alliance that has income from renters of close to a 'trillion' isk per week. How many times do you think you would have to cost them 700 mil (closer to 70 mil really) before they might stop and go - ok keep the moon, we don't want it anymore. Or, are they turning up just because they can and the isk has nothing to do with it.

Anthar, I'm afraid the only way anything in nulsec is likely to change is;
1; The major coalitions implode and all out alliance level wars breaks out
2; CCP force the major coalitions to break up causing alliance level wars to break out.

As neither is likely to happen (in my lifetime anyway) you need to, adapt, join a nulblob alliance or - go run missions.

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If the amount of pos's CCP is expecting is actually removed (I doubt it) ice prices will see little if any change. The amount of capital deployments is very very small now - increasing the cost to deploy them will only see periods between capital deployments increase.
The main capitals being moved around on a daily basis are jump freighters - once again CCP pretending to give nulsec a boost with better refining - then taking it plus 50% away by increasing the cost to get the ore there..

This change to industry - forced by ccp - punishes those who have trained to fly a specific ship - which ccp encourage by lowering training requirements-- Encouraged by CCp I want to fly the biggest ships in game but because CCP wants to create an isk sink out manufacturing and research, I have to pay more to fly my capitals.

No matter which way it turns out - Less pos' or not - Ice miners aren't going to start selling cheaper and lose income. A better solution might be to increase the amount of topes required for pos fuel blocks, that way pos users pay for the changes to the way pos's are used. Industry paying for changes to industry, hmmm, nah, too simple.

CCP giveth and CCP, wait a few weeks, then taketh away double.

The entire point as to why people have downgraded to smaller starbases is specifically BECAUSE of the price of isotopes. What I am reading here is, "CCP understands the market that is entirely player based is struggling, so we want to interfere with and force changes in a sandbox environment to stimlate the market. Because here at CCP we believe WE run the market, not YOU." Please for the love of god stop messing with the market, let the players dictate how price fluctuation should be run not CCP. While this will not affect large alliance or coalition blocks, it kicks the **** out of smaller groups in terms of isk. Its bad enough we have to go drop 3/4ths a bil for a plex but now we should also spend more isk for fuel because you the developers have determined we should?

Stay the **** out of the market, let us handle it the way the game is designed to do. Fix something that actually is broken, how about poses and sov for starters. Ive heard, "the pos code is way to old and clusterfucked to do anything about." Yes...well so was crimewatch and CCP Masterplan and team have done brilliantly on straightening that mess out. What it really boils down to is pure laziness, "heh we dont want to bother with it...lets change a few numbers around to make it look like we are fixing something." How can you blatantly ignore fixing an issue that has plagued EVE for almost as long as its been around and has been the #1 requested item to change?

I'm sorry but if this is the best CCP has to offer, then EVE my lovely friend you are indeed dying.