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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#581 - 2014-05-01 20:53:06 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:


In my opinion, the costs of a POS are not too low... the cost of infinite station S&I is too cheap.


DUDE! In one sentence you summed up everything I was trying to say.
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#582 - 2014-05-01 20:56:33 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:


In my opinion, the costs of a POS are not too low... the cost of infinite station S&I is too cheap.


DUDE! In one sentence you summed up everything I was trying to say.

You guys do realize the extremely non-trivial bonuses to manufacturing speed on certain POS structures are likely to still be a thing after this hits, right? ME isn't everything. Suit yourselves though.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#583 - 2014-05-01 21:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
Volar Kang wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:


In my opinion, the costs of a POS are not too low... the cost of infinite station S&I is too cheap.


DUDE! In one sentence you summed up everything I was trying to say.



Except I actually meant, "the cost of a POS is not too HIGH".

People ran POS because there were not enough slots in stations. Now there are infinite station slots. Those slots will cost more, but not nearly enough more.


Pretty much anything (that can be done in station) that can be done with faster POS production lines can be done with more alts. The skills for manufacturing, at anything below capital level and T2, are pretty darn easy to get. Most copy takes no skill, except a few skills to increase number of runs. An extra month of duel training will go along way to saving a lot of POS fuel.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#584 - 2014-05-01 21:09:33 UTC
The only reason not to use a POS for absolutely everything right now is that it is a total ballache at scale. You have to move materials to the pos AND into the relevant modules for the jobs you want to run.

We need a material silo for manufacturing really, or a massive bay expansion now modules are to be not slot limited.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#585 - 2014-05-01 21:09:56 UTC
Gamer4liff wrote:


You guys do realize the extremely non-trivial bonuses to manufacturing speed on certain POS structures are likely to still be a thing after this hits, right? ME isn't everything. Suit yourselves though.


Not all of us "drive it like we stole it". If I make 200 to 300 modules a month I make more than enough to pay for subs. I'm not saying ALL highsec POS's will go away but I am saying many of us will be taking them down if something doesnt change. On small items like ammo getting more speed is worth it but what about the T2 producers? Who is going to start making 50 tengu's a month instead of 25? Will everyone making more of them per month bring the sale price down? Will more manufacturing require more moon goo thus increasing the cost of it?

Aliath Sunstrike
#586 - 2014-05-01 21:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliath Sunstrike
Not feeling the love here with WH's. You hire a team and it is an assumed max of 50 jumps...even though the distance could be closer. Not to mention you are advertising your WH has build stuff going on. This is again a nerf to WH's. Now people will be metagaming in forums looking for Wormholes that have build jobs going on. Not that it can't be used to bait. But the point is - more risk for WH's less reward.

You guys really really really do not want people living or doing anything in WH's do you?

ALL HAIL THE BLUE DONUT OVERLORDS. ALL HAIL NULL. ::Sarcasm::

Continuous player since 2007.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#587 - 2014-05-01 21:11:45 UTC
Nlex wrote:
1. Calling the blog "Industry work teams", and not making it about ways to make an alt corp or several not be the end-all-be-all way of doing industry in EVE. There were numerous posts in the forum thread about your industry survey decrying security and trust issues at managing industry with more than one person behind the characters. How it's a virtual russian roulette unless you know your co-operators in-person. Yet you do nothing about that, not about corp roles, not about POS roles/permissions.



Take a risk, get a reward. Or continue to be spacepoor. You're doing the latter quite well.


Nlex wrote:

2. On the first glance, it looks like an actual lore nod. On the second, it isn't. Mechanics of acquiring and working those "teams" are not lore friendly at all.
- There's enough of Inferno Drug to produce 576 "specialists" a day, yet none of capsuleers has access to making or distributing it, when it is exactly capsuleers who drive the "harvesting" of WH space.
- These "teams" transport themselves instantly to any system in New Eden, can take on unlimited number of jobs in an unlimited number of facilities at any given moment, yet they somehow are restricted to only operating within one system at a time. Blueprints (data) have to be transported to each facility separately, yet these guys (physical entities) are omnipresent.




Nobody ******* cares, it can be handwaved any way you want it to be
Sgt EVE
Garage Bagage
#588 - 2014-05-01 21:12:01 UTC
this is the end of Tech III production and industry in WH´s.
Why ?

-no npc-station bonus
-no big POS bonus (later)
-no FW bonus
-no outpost bonus
- high bid costs for work teams (no other bids for this system)
- high moving costs for the work teams ( WH will not be there homesystem)

+ low amount of jobs per hour in the system
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#589 - 2014-05-01 21:14:15 UTC
There is no reason rich WH corps shouldn't be able to acquire any T3 teams they wish.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#590 - 2014-05-01 21:15:44 UTC
since my thread was locked:

I was with you guys right up until the Teams blog.

Essentially, with increasing cost of inserting job you're making industry spread out away from the hubs. Then with the teams you're auctioning them, bringing industry back to the hubs if they want to get a decent team for use.

net gain? bigger isk sink for starting jobs.

If a larger isk sink for starting jobs was what you were going for, I don't think you need 6 dev blogs and an entire expansion to do that.

also, from what I can tell (and I may be wrong) but you've essentially kicked the little guy out of the industrial market. If the math I've seen in the Science & Industry forum is correct, there's no such thing as doing anything but the max number of runs going forward otherwise you'll eat into your profit margins.
Sgt EVE
Garage Bagage
#591 - 2014-05-01 21:18:35 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
There is no reason rich WH corps shouldn't be able to acquire any T3 teams they wish.


true and we ignore the fact that tech3 production elsewhere in new eden will profit of the other 4 points
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#592 - 2014-05-01 21:23:17 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:

You can say the 5% reduced manufacturing cost of a POS but you would have to manufacture over three trillion worth of product just to save 150 million in fuel cost.




Lol what the **** 3 trillion? You're off by a factor of 1000.



Volar Kang wrote:

There are not many players out there producing those kinds of numbers from a single POS in one months time.




Seriously? Why do you even own a POS if you can't turn over 3b in a month? I can turn over 3b in a day (more than that, actually), per character. If you play dumb and ignore the incredible margin offered to you through high-turnover items.... Well that's why you will no longer be competitive in the market. Because you're braindead.



Volar Kang wrote:
If I do my industry 12 jumps from Dodixie where I dont have many people using/scaling up the cost of slots, my total production costs will be much lower than what they would be with a POS AND with the copy time reduction, I will be able to produce at least three times more product now than I am able to today.

Anyone currently using a highsec POS better be scouting out some remote systems to move to and be ready to test pricing in those systems when the change comes or I will be crushing them in price with my new reduced costs.



Behold, gentlemen. The inventor. This man specifically goes for the activity with the most clicking and the least profit margin - before even factoring in the delays from his unused lines.

This is what EVE industry was. This is not what EVE industry will be.
Muninn Ogeko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#593 - 2014-05-01 21:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Muninn Ogeko
Specialist teams provide another mechanism to make the most powerful alliances more powerful relative to their competition.

Lets say dominant alliance produces 10 titans at 100b each (made up numbers for simplicity) in a given month. When the titan spec team becomes available, with its 7.5% ME bonus, they bid up to 50b, since this team has a 5% advantage over the 2.5% that is cheaply available (5% of 100b/titan = 5b. 5b x10 titans = 50b).

The less powerful alliance only expects to produce 5 titans at 100b in this month, so they bid 25b. The dominant alliance wins the bid (and pays 25b).

Now the dominant alliance has an effective 25b advantage (or 2.5% cheaper titans).

Depending on how the auction works, they probably also know that the less powerful alliance intended to build 5 titans this month, and the less powerful alliance probably knows that the dominant alliance intends to build at least 5 titans. Both sides know where the other side intended to do the construction.

This effect is even more pronounced on Serenity, where the power ratios are more extreme.

Interestingly, I think the combination of ME10, outpost 5, and specialist team 7.5 will lead to an effective 12.5% drop in material requirements, which will almost counter the decreased yield of refined minerals (assuming perfect outpost refining).
Sgt EVE
Garage Bagage
#594 - 2014-05-01 21:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt EVE
Loraine Gess wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:

You can say the 5% reduced manufacturing cost of a POS but you would have to manufacture over three trillion worth of product just to save 150 million in fuel cost.



Lol what the **** 3 trillion? You're off by a factor of 1000.


manufacture over 3bil worth of product just to equal 150 million in fuel cost sound that much better for you.
If you want a large POS you have to produce 9bil worth of product per month to equal your fuel costs.
sounds like the end of POS-system for me.
finally CCP find a way to fix the POS-System by making it unaffordable.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#595 - 2014-05-01 21:44:36 UTC
Sgt EVE wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:

You can say the 5% reduced manufacturing cost of a POS but you would have to manufacture over three trillion worth of product just to save 150 million in fuel cost.



Lol what the **** 3 trillion? You're off by a factor of 1000.


manufacture over 3bil worth of product just to equal 150 million in fuel cost sound that much better for you.
If you want a large POS you have to produce 9bil worth of product per month to equal your fuel costs.
sounds like the end of POS-system for me.
finally CCP find a way to fix the POS-System by making it unaffordable.




You have a large POS and can't manufacture 9b of product in an entire month, with the insane speed bonuses it gives you?



Seriously. Stop being bad at industry. Or don't. POS-produced goods will crush your market soon enough.
Sgt EVE
Garage Bagage
#596 - 2014-05-01 21:49:25 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:




You have a large POS and can't manufacture 9b of product in an entire month, with the insane speed bonuses it gives you?



Seriously. Stop being bad at industry. Or don't. POS-produced goods will crush your market soon enough.


you don´t get the point my friend. the point is there is no reason to use a POS for Industry any more.
not for 5% jobcost reduction.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#597 - 2014-05-01 21:49:54 UTC
Muninn Ogeko wrote:
Specialist teams provide another mechanism to make the most powerful alliances more powerful relative to their competition.

Lets say dominant alliance produces 10 titans at 100b each (made up numbers for simplicity) in a given month. When the titan spec team becomes available, with its 7.5% ME bonus, they bid up to 50b, since this team has a 5% advantage over the 2.5% that is cheaply available (5% of 100b/titan = 5b. 5b x10 titans = 50b).

The less powerful alliance only expects to produce 5 titans at 100b in this month, so they bid 25b. The dominant alliance wins the bid (and pays 25b).

Now the dominant alliance has an effective 25b advantage (or 2.5% cheaper titans).

Depending on how the auction works, they probably also know that the less powerful alliance intended to build 5 titans this month, and the less powerful alliance probably knows that the dominant alliance intends to build at least 5 titans. Both sides know where the other side intended to do the construction.

This effect is even more pronounced on Serenity, where the power ratios are more extreme.

Interestingly, I think the combination of ME10, outpost 5, and specialist team 7.5 will lead to an effective 12.5% drop in material requirements, which will more than counter the decreased yield of refined minerals (assuming perfect outpost refining).



Outpost 5 is not applicable (titans are POS builds)


ME10 is not feasible on a titan - ME will basically be whatever it is at the moment, so we can entirely discard it from calculations


No word on whether titan/cap specialties will exist (haven't seen a question on it either). Even then that would mean grouping all titan builds into the same system, and broadcasting that system, and then defending the POS until they all come out.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#598 - 2014-05-01 21:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Loraine Gess
Sgt EVE wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:




You have a large POS and can't manufacture 9b of product in an entire month, with the insane speed bonuses it gives you?



Seriously. Stop being bad at industry. Or don't. POS-produced goods will crush your market soon enough.


you don´t get the point my friend. the point is there is no reason to use a POS for Industry any more.
not for 5% jobcost reduction.




You produce 100b a month @ 1% margin (including all applicable fees, taxes, etc) in station.


I produce 100b a month, in a POS, @ ~3% margin. For materials.


I shave another .3% by dodging the NPC tax. POS arrays turn my 100b into 133.3b a month in turnover.



I am now earning ~4.4b a month, let's say -500m for fuel. So 3.9b.

You are earning ~1b.


I can afford to halve my profit margin, pushing you out of the market entirely at 500m/mo loss. And I would still earn ~1.7b a month in profit, after fuel. More than your entire operation could ever do without a POS.



We will bury you.





This is all with the revised -2% material requirements. -5% materials means I can afford to actually cause your margin to drop >200%. I could afford to make you lose more in a month than you would ever gain in a month if I wasn't in the market. Just by existing I can tank your entire operation.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#599 - 2014-05-01 22:01:23 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
No word on whether titan/cap specialties will exist (haven't seen a question on it either). Even then that would mean grouping all titan builds into the same system, and broadcasting that system, and then defending the POS until they all come out.

I, for one, hope there are titan/supercap teams. I would prefer the bonus to be very, very small, but I hope they will exist, for exactly the reason you're describing. Hiring a supercap team paints a giant target on a system, and I think that's awesome.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#600 - 2014-05-01 22:01:57 UTC
Querns wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
No word on whether titan/cap specialties will exist (haven't seen a question on it either). Even then that would mean grouping all titan builds into the same system, and broadcasting that system, and then defending the POS until they all come out.

I, for one, hope there are titan/supercap teams. I would prefer the bonus to be very, very small, but I hope they will exist, for exactly the reason you're describing. Hiring a supercap team paints a giant target on a system, and I think that's awesome.



I look forward to your inevitable resulting supercap battle.