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Crime & Punishment

 
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Noir. [Est. 2008]

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Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
#121 - 2014-05-01 07:00:14 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
I recommend working for Goblin if you want increasingly inventive reasons why he won't pay you once you're done.


Why didnt you tell him you were contracted by goons for burn jita up front? Thats the part I dont get, your not stupid you must have known how he would feel and I cant see how anyone can be surprised to watch him completly lose his **** over this.

I'm genuinely surprised you would write off a client like this then troll him. Idea is this another goon contract you have? Shocked

Will gank for food
Slummy
Matterhorn.
#122 - 2014-05-01 08:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Slummy
Without delving into battle of spacenerd rage, just a intelligent note to all of you people without slightest clue how real life business works:

in business which is based on trust (RL: lawyers, investment bankers, auditors, etc.) you don't accept even slightly conflicting roles without getting explicit approval of both sides. We had once one lawyer firm that thought it can do something similar; they were fired the next day.

There is also such thing as 'substance over form'. Google.
Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2014-05-01 09:33:18 UTC
Ok sorry about this just another inconsistency with Noir 'contracts' they may want to plug. I don't know how anyboby in Noir knew what to shoot so the shoot everything was probably best.

Isabela Valentine wrote:
'No details of the contract were forwarded to the original contractor, nor was the name ever given. The only thing passed on was that we would be shooting them too. A Burn Everyone type of deal. They seemed cool with it....'

and later Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
'1 and 3 is the same contract. I know this is very difficult to follow, but we got hired BY THE SAME PERSON to shoot ganking CFCers

AND

wait for it

AND shoot people war decing GSF. At the same time. Like one after the other after the other. All weekend.'

So according to Isabela they contacted the original client to ask if they could shoot them too which according to Alek was already the original contract? 'A burn everyone type of deal' so to speak but didn't Alek state it was that already?
'They seemed cool with it....' - I bet they were it was according to less than truthful Alek was the original contract.


Also 'that we would be shooting them too'. Who is them, Alek tells us that them is 'CFCers' so Noir was working for the goons maybe?
Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
#124 - 2014-05-01 11:58:55 UTC
So here's an example then. Lets say I hire Noir and pursuit of happiness to clear out all the custom offices around dodixie so I can get a nice monoply rolling there. lets say for a 20 system radius. Now the carebears aren't happy and organise other merc corp for defense that's why I need the 2 of you. So we come to the big battle of Dodixie we all show up 200 aside, then Noir start shooting pursuit of happiness as well and pod me.

"hey we shot your enemies too... would you like help organising your payment plan?"

I hope you understand how this looks. Im not saying gevlons handling it well, hes appears to have gone off the deep end again, but surely you can see he has a point Noir? I do.

Will gank for food
Futune Circinus
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2014-05-01 13:26:32 UTC
This is not about the letter of the contract. That is irrelevant as we have no legal system to try it in. This is about public perception and professional courtesy. To the public, there is no doubt that you knew what the Goblin thought he was buying, and yet you did not inform him that this was not what you intended to deliver.

The reality of this claim is irrelevant, the cat is out of the bag, and the public is now worried that you might try to somehow screw them over on a technicality. "You hired us to defend the pos when it came out of reinforce, and we did defend it by destroying the attacking fleet, but you didn't include a clause saying that we couldn't also shoot the pos!" and variations.

The fact that public opinion is with the Goblin, one of the least popular people in Eve, in this matter should be a huge warning sign. You need to approach this not as a contractual disagreement but a PR disaster. The extortion attempt did not improve things, to the public this looks like an admission of guilt.

I know this is none of my business, but I like your brand, and I recently pointed a new player that wanted to become a merc towards your academy. Don't mess this up please.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#126 - 2014-05-01 13:29:44 UTC
Futune, from my own point of view as someone who is not only not affiliated with NOIR, but has traded ammo with them on another character on numerous occasions...

How on earth do you think public opinion is against them? What basis do you have for that? And did you actually read the evemail transcripts that got posted?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#127 - 2014-05-01 13:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Futune Circinus wrote:
The reality of this claim is irrelevant

Good to know where you stand rofl

For everyone else,*Snip* Removed external link to private in game correspondence.. ISD Ezwal.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Oshia Launay
Galactic Fringe Inc
#128 - 2014-05-01 16:32:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Futune, from my own point of view as someone who is not only not affiliated with NOIR, but has traded ammo with them on another character on numerous occasions...

How on earth do you think public opinion is against them? What basis do you have for that? And did you actually read the evemail transcripts that got posted?

Dunno about the public at large, but as a player entirely uninvolved in any of this and who does not care about Goons, Gevlon etc, and having read both sides of the story, I think it reflects very badly on Noir. I'd never hire mercs who are known to take on conflicting jobs and play not-screwing-you-over-was-not-in-the-contract afterwards.

Merc 101:
1) you don't work for both sides, ever.
2) see rule 1
3) reputation is everything
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2014-05-01 17:11:16 UTC
Oshia Launay wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Futune, from my own point of view as someone who is not only not affiliated with NOIR, but has traded ammo with them on another character on numerous occasions...

How on earth do you think public opinion is against them? What basis do you have for that? And did you actually read the evemail transcripts that got posted?

Dunno about the public at large, but as a player entirely uninvolved in any of this and who does not care about Goons, Gevlon etc, and having read both sides of the story, I think it reflects very badly on Noir. I'd never hire mercs who are known to take on conflicting jobs and play not-screwing-you-over-was-not-in-the-contract afterwards.

Merc 101:
1) you don't work for both sides, ever.
2) see rule 1
3) reputation is everything


^This^
I would be very hesitant to hire Noir after this incident, and I found it hilarious that Gelvon's anti-goon scheme failed. Perhaps he should hire CODE. in the future. Gelvon, contact me next year and I'll jam one ganker for free.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#130 - 2014-05-01 17:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
Oshia Launay wrote:
]I'd never hire mercs who are known to take on conflicting jobs

Nor should you, but as you'll notice neither Goblin nor his supporters can articulate what the conflict was without A. Inventing a third contract which involved protecting Goonswarm during the event and for which our 25b in CFC kills was a smokescreen or B. Overlooking the fact Goblin withheld important information from us about his involvement with other groups and withheld his expectation we would work with the group we did not know he was still leading after he told us he wasnt involved with them anymore

It's important to remember when hiring Noir. or any other merc that they're often only as familiar with your cause, coalition, or plans as you make them. It's considered unreasonable to expect them to "just know" where you have alts, who your blues are, whether those blues know to work with them or if they will shoot the merc, and if you've got other operations or deals going on.

The only alternative to that understanding is having the mercs get the APIs for all of your accounts and put an alt into your corp before taking your contract. While I'm sure PL's spy network might be good enough for that to be no big deal, it would be prohibitive for little guys like us.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Bayonnefrog
Blueprint Mania
#131 - 2014-05-01 17:21:27 UTC
This thread should be retitled to: "When Nerds Collide"
Van Ishez
State War Academy
Caldari State
#132 - 2014-05-01 18:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Ishez
Don't really know whether all this happened due to poor communication or intentional misunderstandings.

In real life there are multiple occasions where the customer asks for something, but in reality wants something else.
Now if they go to court they will look at the contract and see that the customer wanted A and got A, clear case.

However an old saying is that an unhappy customer will tell about his experience to 10 people, a happy customer will tell about his experience to one person.

In real life, (eve may differ?) it's not about following or not following the contract, it's about making customers happy.
Edit: And yes, sometimes making the customer happy requires almost psychic skills....
Bayonnefrog
Blueprint Mania
#133 - 2014-05-01 18:35:21 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
A quote from Noir's site:

Quote:
When NMG is hired to do a job, whatever that job may be, there are parameters. Those parameters differ with every contract. One time it may be that we're only allowed to count any kills made within a certain area. Maybe we're only able to count kills from a certain organization, or maybe we're simply hired to make life for the occupants as difficult as possible. To even have a hope of accomplishing any of these parameters, there is a ton of planning, coordination, and effort involved. The logistics of moving an entire alliance every few weeks to accomplish drastically different goals each time is not something to be taken for granted. Once the "boots hit the ground", the work hasn't just begun - it's simply one step in the process, and one of the last step, I might add. At the end of the contract, the true test of a mercenary's worth is how pleased the employer is.

I am so pleased with the honesty, straightforwardness and proficiency of Noir during our Burn Jita contract that I just placed 20B bounty (about 10x more than these fine mercenaries want from me) on their titan. EVE-O post about the bounty comes when Chribba (or other trusted third party) verifies my deposit of the 20B.

I fully recommend hiring Noir if you consider it OK to

  • Disclose your contract with the target
  • Ask the permission of the target to take it
  • Officially allying with the target (using the in-game ally join in war feature)
  • Kill your own alt trying to do the job, saving a target in deep armor
  • Not doing any harm to the target, just whoring on Concord kills with 1-2% damage, just as the target approved


But maybe the quote has a honest mistype and should read "the true test of a mercenary's worth is how pleased the target is". This case they are the most awesome mercs in EVE since Powers (Goon leader in Burn Jita, Goons were the contract target) is praising and defending their conduct on every forum like he was their lawyer.


Edit: to save you the time commenting: XYES, I'M MAD!!!X


I think this is known in the gaming community as "nerd rage."
Joseph Soprano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2014-05-01 19:03:17 UTC
Van Ishez wrote:
Don't really know whether all this happened due to poor communication or intentional misunderstandings.

In real life there are multiple occasions where the customer asks for something, but in reality wants something else.
Now if they go to court they will look at the contract and see that the customer wanted A and got A, clear case.

However an old saying is that an unhappy customer will tell about his experience to 10 people, a happy customer will tell about his experience to one person.

In real life, (eve may differ?) it's not about following or not following the contract, it's about making customers happy.
Edit: And yes, sometimes making the customer happy requires almost psychic skills....


They knew he wasn't happy on Friday 25.04.14

From: Gevlon Goblin
Sent: 2014.04.25 11:31
To: Alekseyev Karrde,

Hi,

War: Darwins Lemmings vs. Goonswarm Federation
War: The Marmite Collective vs. Goonswarm Federation

I see you in both of the wars as ally to the Goons.
What the hell is going on? We were negotiating a contract against Goons. I thought such double-crossing clients is bad for business. I really hope it was just an act of a rogue director.

Nothing psychic about it he was set up.
Oshia Launay
Galactic Fringe Inc
#135 - 2014-05-01 19:24:17 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Oshia Launay wrote:
I'd never hire mercs who are known to take on conflicting jobs

Nor should you, but as you'll notice neither Goblin nor his supporters can articulate what the conflicting jobs were without A. Inventing a third contract which involved protecting Goonswarm during the event and for which our 25b in CFC kills was a smokescreen or B. Overlooking the fact Goblin withheld important information from us about his involvement with other groups and withheld his expectation we would work with the group we did not know he was still leading

There was conflict of interest the second Noir agreed to work for clients who have mutually exclusive goals, as Goons and Gevlon have, regardless of who Gevlon worked with or the fine print in the contracts..

Quote:
It's important to remember when hiring Noir. or any other merc that they're often only as familiar with your cause, coalition, or plans as you make them. It's considered unreasonable to expect them to "just know" where you have alts, who your blues are, whether those blues know to work with you or if they will shoot you, and if you've got other operations or deals going on.

Ignorance is going to be a bit of a hard sell, given that Noir worked for Gevlon previously and that he's made his vendetta, his goals, and his involvement with other groups public knowledge. Can't have been much of a surprise to find out that Lemmings or Marmite were shooting Goons for Gevlon.

Even assuming ignorance, it only became an issue because Noir agreed to work both for Goons and Gevlon, which Noir damn well shouldn't have done in the first place. If Noir was acting in good faith, it should be apologizing profusely to its client, instead of playing the legalese card, shifting the blame and demanding payment.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#136 - 2014-05-01 20:16:22 UTC
I didn't read all of this drama, but it seems that both sides broke the contract, and each multiple times.

Gevlon :
- revealed the contract ;
- didn't paid the isks for the pods and the jams (wtf is this contract anyway ? a joke ?) ;

Noir. :
- revealed the contract too (never, ever do that, even if the customer did it first) ;
- made a shady deal with the target (allying against Lemmings, really ? there is no excuse) ;
I am too lazy (and I don't give much of a ****, too) to check the KBs, if there was good faith running the contract or not.

I'm throwing virtual poo at both of you.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#137 - 2014-05-01 20:23:27 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
I

Noir. :
- revealed the contract too (never, ever do that, even if the customer did it first) ;
- made a shady deal with the target (allying against Lemmings, really ? there is no excuse) ;
I am too lazy (and I don't give much of a ****, too) to check the KBs, if there was good faith running the contract or not.

I'm throwing virtual poo at both of you.

-We didn't reveal the contract till Goblin went off the handle declaring he would not pay and blocking (literally in game, not allowed to contact him at all) any attempt to discuss the issue. At that point he's a scammer not a customer and is being treated accordingly
-We didn't make any deals with the target(s).

I would agree with you 1000% Reppy if either of those things were the case. I've been in the biz over 8 years, I know what not to do.

You should check the kb ;) In good faith to both clients we put CFC through hell.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#138 - 2014-05-01 20:37:15 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#139 - 2014-05-01 20:47:06 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
-We didn't reveal the contract till
Stop right here. You know we have (had ?) our own way of dealing with ex-customers/scammers.
You should never speak in details about the contract.
Reminds' me the old Agerol drama : flying poo all over the place.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
-We didn't make any deals with the target(s).
I wasn't clear. You made a deal (joining GSF as an ally) that was directly interfering with another contract.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
I would agree with you 1000% Reppy if either of those things were the case. I've been in the biz over 8 years, I know what not to do.
I'm not the "merc judge", that's just the point of view of someone that was a merc (a somewhat long time ago) and has always respect all his deals.

Your KB is not working for me (but that satanic islandic wifi isn't working well too Oops ).

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Major Plexington
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#140 - 2014-05-01 21:02:44 UTC
Looks like a clear conflict of interest committed by Noir.

I'd be very unhappy if I found out any Mercs I hired had pulled this stunt.