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Motivation for HS war decs
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#141 - 2014-05-01 19:53:35 UTC
dont compare eve to RL. RL never applies to games, let alone eve, and bringing it up in a discussion like this just devolves the discussion into ppl using RL comparisons that forward their own argument but are all utterly meaningless. lets not do that.

grief wars, by CCP's words, are 'not rife', they also arent even untoward in this game. They tend to have more meaning than what some players call 'real PvP'. i dnt understand what benefit could come from writing down the reason for a dec. Especially as secrecy is a big deal in EVE.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#142 - 2014-05-01 20:11:19 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
dont compare eve to RL. RL never applies to games, let alone eve, and bringing it up in a discussion like this just devolves the discussion into ppl using RL comparisons that forward their own argument but are all utterly meaningless. lets not do that.

grief wars, by CCP's words, are 'not rife', they also arent even untoward in this game. They tend to have more meaning than what some players call 'real PvP'. i dnt understand what benefit could come from writing down the reason for a dec. Especially as secrecy is a big deal in EVE.


Was trying to give you simple example...

Let's take something else as an example...

CCP created this sandbox with some frames in which we can operate....
Let's say that one day you'll be able to pay "tax" and for one week an alliance won't be able to attack your alliance in WH \ Null or lowsec as concord willl arrive to save you, it's reversed war dec idea. Stupid right?

Same to wardec, why to allow anyone to pay tax in isks to remove an in game mechanic just for giggle without reason?

I respect suicide gankers, they are true pirates. Gives no damn about police shooting people to loot their wrecks all within the limitation of the mechanics.
Wardec is just wrong at its base its like "I'll pay isk to change the game into my preference". Living in high\low\null\wh is all about location location location! it's not just the mechanics... each place in eve universe got pros and cons and once you take isk payments to alter it you do something wrong.

As I've said in theory wardec is amazing idea... Allow a corp to engage in combat with other corp legally without resorting into piracy, reasons to declare such a war will make it 10 times more fun but same as people quit their corp or stay in newb corp to avoid wardec pvp grifers will declare wardec on non combat oriented or non pvp oriented corps just for easy kills, hence abusing this system.
You might say "well HTFU this is eve fight or die" ok, I respect that but due to current mechanics of the game I can avoid wardec on both sides of the table and abuse it to a point where it's irrelevant and has no point at all.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#143 - 2014-05-01 20:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
deccing for easy kills isnt an abuse of the system. the system was never designed as a way for one corp to have 'good fights' with another corp. its just a way to attack a corp. any corp. for any reason.

grief decs dnt abuse the system, they exploit defenceless players who have joined a defenceless corp/alliance. why dnt those defenceless players join other players that can protect and teach them the ways of the game? because they want their own corp? well thats all well and fine. But accept the consequences of ur actions.

Ur right, decs are completely avoidable from a player perspective. But a corp cant avoid a dec (unless its an NPC corp) and thats what the war decs are about. Decs are against corps, not players. so in that respect, they are working.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#144 - 2014-05-01 20:31:19 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
deccing for easy kills isnt an abuse of the system. the system was never designed as a way for one corp to have 'good fights' with another corp. its just a way to attack a corp. any corp. for any reason.

grief decs dnt abuse the system, they exploit defenceless players who have joined a defenceless corp/alliance. why dnt those defenceless players join other players that can protect and teach them the ways of the game? because they want their own corp? well thats all well and fine. But accept the consequences of ur actions.

Ur right, decs are completely avoidable from a player perspective. But a corp cant avoid a dec (unless its an NPC corp) and thats what the war decs are about. Decs are against corps, not players. so in that respect, they are working.



afaik WarDec was implemented as:

Quote:
Among other things, corporations and alliances allow formal wars to be fought over resources, trade routes, strategic systems, customs offices, etc. Corporate wars allow the two warring corporations to attack each other with impunity, bypassing all security status penalties and CONCORD interference.

- https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Wars

so it's not just for killing for kill sake its for competition, mostly. In practice that is not the case... from my experience and what I've seen war decs are most of the time declared by pvp oriented corps on mission runners and indy players for no other reason then giggles and get easy kills.

Also due to the lack of skills trained on indy toon the lack the means to actually fight back so they need to hire someone for them, fight and die, or quit the corp.

At bottom line current system is falwed beyoned reason and needs some overhaul to balance it.

Also I find it amusing that you all ignore my examples on how ridiculos this system is especially my "reversed" wardec idea to pay in order to get concord on low\null\wh.. if such idea is (and it does) sound stupid how can you justify same thing with war dec?
Payment of isk to remove concord from the equation for no reason given ?
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#145 - 2014-05-01 20:58:09 UTC

Clarification accepted, I see what you mean by skilled.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:

Why do you wardec people then? you find it fun to shoot people which don't want to fight or can't pilot proper combat ship?


Generally not, there are, for the most part, reasons behind my decs, I won't reveal them here though.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
If you failed suicide ganks does that made you pissed off and instead of investing 1 use max gank ships you invest in "shoot permit" from concord?


Not at all, the first time I failed a gank I was experimenting with fits and deciding if I needed rigs or not, the failure told me that yes, I did. The second failure was because I forgot to overheat my guns (I was tired, sue me). Both failures were my own fault, and I laughed harder than my intended victim did.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
This is why you think you should **** people in combat pvp?
I find combat pvp in eve pretty dull by itself, without any reason behind it or some metgame background to it it's just dull hence I engage in it only when I'm extremly bored... But you as fan of such gameplay why not go and find prey worth the challenge instead of getting permit to attack people without skills to fly combat ships?


Again, my reasons are my own, but no it's not just to pick on people, and I'm significantly more satisfied when my targets fight back, even if I end up having to bug out because I'm hugely out matched. Shooting orcas and freighters during a war is done because they are there and anyone who mines during a war, or autopilots their freighter, should be punished, however it's not the objective.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
You just proved with your rant my point, you are trained skill wise (eve skill training 1-5 system.. ) to fly combat ships. You like to shoot people but yet you prefer to find easier prey to stroke your imaginary e-peen in order to compensate for something.


I'll shoot anything, whether it shoots back or not, doesn't mean I won't run from fights I'll obviously lose. Easy targets will not be passed up, so obviously they are there. I am a pirate after all, money from loot is money all the same.

Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
otoh shouldn't you reply to my post in its fullest and not just quote few lines? I gave an example of proper way to implement a mechanic of war decs in highsec without this griefing shenanigans. Also it does not make sense to have concord and empire police and all that if anyone can just pay some isks and ignore them completely for no reason! and at that if there was a reason to war dec and get concord out of the picture it should be something which will make the defender want to defend! in such way that if they are not capable to fight themselves skill wise they could hire mercenary group to do that instead.


I can't tell whether you're trying to say HS wars should be impossible, HS wars should still have concord interfering, or whether HS wars should cost more than they do. All of these options are bad as they would discourage PVP in a game which has PVP at it's fundamental core. If you feel HS warfare is too common, then I'm not really sure why you're playing Eve at all.


Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#146 - 2014-05-01 20:58:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
yeah thats not an official source. Evelopedia is not CCP words. Anyone can edit it like wikipedia.

the current system could be better, but its not fundamentally flawed. and again, CCP said grief decs are not rife. and in my experience its the other way round. deccers have reasons, but dnt always make them public.

Quote:
Also I find it amusing that you all ignore my examples on how ridiculos this system is especially my "reversed" wardec idea to pay in order to get concord on low\null\wh.. if such idea is (and it does) sound stupid how can you justify same thing with war dec?
Payment of isk to remove concord from the equation for no reason given ?


because it was a ridiculous example, included only to be ridiculed. in a forum for a game thats meant to drive conflict between players, its of no surprise to anyone that a system like that is not even considered. but it does make complete sense, in a game like eve, to pay off the authorities so u can gank someone.

edit-

It is official, however, it is still edited by players, or at least it was when it wasnt locked. and Evelopedia is out of date. CCP actually point new players to uni-wiki for information. Its still not gospel.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#147 - 2014-05-01 21:15:53 UTC
I must skipped the eula or something when I started to play eve or something cause I'm pretty sure I didn't see any lines stating "right way to play" and "you must play like this".

Each one to his own and each one can do whatever he wants in the boundries of the sandbox...

That said my example was in order to show you the other side of the coin, it's not about protection or police or anything else it's about a way for anyone to pay isk in order to change the implemented game mechanics to his benefits...

You got secret reason to wardec? I call shenanigans. utter nonsense. Explain to me why 8 player ganker corp declare war on another indy corp other side of the galaxy while they are not connected in any way and the ganker corp is not merc corp for hire? no reason. they just pay some isk and ta da! no more concord no more highsec mechanics.

In truth the biggest problem here is two fold,
1. War decs are declared without reason and can be avoided pretty easily making them irrelevent.
2. In one sided way one can alter teh game mechanics for isk.
example: if it's ok to pay concord in order to attack anyone I want why can't I hire pirate npcs to follow me around in specified system be my bodyguard? (which is sorta like wardec if you think about it in dept).

So,
TL;DR
Don't let people change the mechanics for no reason by paying isk and then make the entire new altered mechanic irrelevant in every possible way.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#148 - 2014-05-01 21:16:04 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:

As I've said in theory wardec is amazing idea... Allow a corp to engage in combat with other corp legally without resorting into piracy, reasons to declare such a war will make it 10 times more fun but same as people quit their corp or stay in newb corp to avoid wardec pvp grifers will declare wardec on non combat oriented or non pvp oriented corps just for easy kills, hence abusing this system.
You might say "well HTFU this is eve fight or die" ok, I respect that but due to current mechanics of the game I can avoid wardec on both sides of the table and abuse it to a point where it's irrelevant and has no point at all.


Finally something we can agree on. Yes I'm looking for motivation to encourage wars to be more meaningful, mostly through creating a mechanic that would encourage people to remain in a player corp, but not directly punish them from not doing so. Basically if you remain in the corp and you work to maintain it, you benefit through rewards, if you drop corp you lose what you've worked to create, if you choose not to undock during a war, ideally I would like to see you take little to no repercussion for choosing to do so, but provide you with rewards if you do chose to undock.

And I agree, currently war decs are abused on both sides. But that's not what I'm trying to address here.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#149 - 2014-05-01 21:29:27 UTC
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:
I must skipped the eula or something when I started to play eve or something cause I'm pretty sure I didn't see any lines stating "right way to play" and "you must play like this".

Each one to his own and each one can do whatever he wants in the boundries of the sandbox...

That said my example was in order to show you the other side of the coin, it's not about protection or police or anything else it's about a way for anyone to pay isk in order to change the implemented game mechanics to his benefits...

You got secret reason to wardec? I call shenanigans. utter nonsense. Explain to me why 8 player ganker corp declare war on another indy corp other side of the galaxy while they are not connected in any way and the ganker corp is not merc corp for hire? no reason. they just pay some isk and ta da! no more concord no more highsec mechanics.

In truth the biggest problem here is two fold,
1. War decs are declared without reason and can be avoided pretty easily making them irrelevent.
2. In one sided way one can alter teh game mechanics for isk.
example: if it's ok to pay concord in order to attack anyone I want why can't I hire pirate npcs to follow me around in specified system be my bodyguard? (which is sorta like wardec if you think about it in dept).

So,
TL;DR
Don't let people change the mechanics for no reason by paying isk and then make the entire new altered mechanic irrelevant in every possible way.


Honestly? Someone probably hired me to. Or they did something to draw my attention (ex. being dicks in local etc.) Or maybe they have a history of doing stupid stuff during a war. Or they have a resource supply line I want to interrupt, the reasons go on.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#150 - 2014-05-01 21:52:57 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:


Finally something we can agree on. Yes I'm looking for motivation to encourage wars to be more meaningful, mostly through creating a mechanic that would encourage people to remain in a player corp, but not directly punish them from not doing so. Basically if you remain in the corp and you work to maintain it, you benefit through rewards, if you drop corp you lose what you've worked to create, if you choose not to undock during a war, ideally I would like to see you take little to no repercussion for choosing to do so, but provide you with rewards if you do chose to undock.

And I agree, currently war decs are abused on both sides. But that's not what I'm trying to address here.


see we look on this issue from both sides of the argument and we basically agree that this system need some love.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#151 - 2014-05-01 21:53:37 UTC
i war dec ppl who mine in the same belt/system as me. ppl pay me to war dec for POCO destruction so they can install their own. ive been hired for POS bashes, hired ppl myself to gank other miners. call shenanigans all u want, theres an entire meta being played that u arent even aware exists.

No one is forcing anyone to play any way, YOUR the one saying that ppl should play the game YOUR way by only wardeccing for reasons YOUR ok with. But this is a PvP centric MMO sandbox. ppl will attack u in many ways for any reason they like, and war decs, including grief decs, are one of those ways. This is the nature of the game. HTFU.

u dnt have to fight back if u dnt want to, but the whole point of this thread is to try and come up with a way that defenders can get more benefits for fighting back. THATS what we are trying to do here. Not justify decs, they are already justified.

1. No reason is needed. maybe u'd be happier in a non-player run sandbox game, where u HAVE to have a reason for doing something. Here, in this game, u have the tools to go and do what u want. reasoning other than 'cause i want to' is not a requirement.

2. A war dec is the mechanic. this is not a game about NPC's, its about players. so go hire some players pirates to be ur bodyguards. and CONCORD are not highsec bodyguards, they only punish after the crime is committed. This game is about player conflict, it is biased towards driving players together by design.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Velicitia
XS Tech
#152 - 2014-05-02 11:02:27 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:

... we had a new member who had been playing eve for one week. We handed him as many condors as he needed and kept handing him more as he lost them.


did a similar thing in the same corp I referenced before -- dead new rookie (maybe 6 or 8 days in) came flying with us through the "local" lowsec system and was able to tackle a Jag (not knowing what it was at the time -- IIRC he said he caught a Rifter).

He's shooting it, and dies horribly, just as I landed a point on the jag (in a Talos -- I had no chance, lol) to keep him around. Rest of the gang shows up and makes quick work of the dude.

We wait 15 mins in our POS in that system, and go back to HS as there's no station in the LS system.

I dump something like 40 rifters on the rookie, and fittings for 15-20 of them. More wealth than he had ever seen in game til then ... he was dumbfounded that I'd do that (TBH, I was more upset that I didn't have enough T1 trash mods to fit up the rest ... but a few days, and some MFG slots later took care of that).

Really, the biggest problem I see coming out of the "carebear" side is that they don't quite understand the difference between throwing money away on a bounty ... and spending the same amount of ISK on frigates.

In a different corp/alliance from the one I had been referencing, stuff like this happened pretty frequently. I joined that one, because some old friends were running the corp, and had just gotten dec'd so needed some help. Wardec ends with us never seeing the aggressorsCry. Life gets back to "normal" and people go back to mining blissfully unaware of things ... some dudes get ganked, and put like 20m ISK on the heads of the "bad guys". Explain to them that they could have gotten like 17 or 18 Tristans (or equivalent high-end frigate, as this was pre-tiericide) fitted for that cost, and used them to shoot back.

Got into a long discussion with them, and they realized that what I was saying made sense ... alliance leadership hears that I'm "subversive" and not just a "hisec carebear victim" type (which they seemed intent on cultivating) and kicked me out.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#153 - 2014-05-02 22:02:37 UTC
Yeah bounties are silly. Someone puts a bounty on me I just laugh. Same with people who sell the killrights they have on me for less than 10 mill. Oh someone will buy those killrights, me. I'll lose a rookie ship, then go back to flying my tengu with no active killrights.

A big part of it is knowing how to use your money effectively, putting a bounty on someone is a bad use of money, unless it's the corp / alliance leader putting the bounty on the hostiles, and saying 'ok guys, go get the money back.' THAT is an effective use of a bounty.

Most situations, as Velicitia stated, the money would be better spent on cheap frigates and cruisers to go punch the people you don't like in the face with.

Back to topic at hand though, I would love to see some sort of reward system that would provide mechanical incentive for fighting defensive wars.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.