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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#481 - 2014-04-30 22:21:21 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:


I guess logistics is free, right? The 50% increase in jump fuel consumption doesn't kinda hurt nullsec producers just a little? Maybe? You think any real nullsec producer is going to be building battleships to sell in empire? I think you're pretty safe there. Carry on.


I don't believe I said logistics was free? I think I already mentioned earlier that to drive competition out some increased logistics cost will be acceptable in the short to medium term. They (the very organized null groups) already make profit whilst having to use logistics now, and will maximize production on the most profit making items they can to offset the increased jump fuel costs. This will be further maximized as more people have to move to null to maintain some profit margin, creating null markets.


Waiting to see activity numbers, but I don't expect there to be much reason to move an industrial character to null - there are high-sec systems sufficiently quiet in high-sec to be cheap enough that the additional effort and cost in moving to null isn't warranted.

Null industry right now is at a chicken-and-egg stage: there's not a sufficient market that an industrialist gets competitive rate of return on invested isk, and there are materials required that must be imported wherever you manufacture. High sec has easy logistics to the markets to fill both needs, so why move an operation to null? To be attractive, null has to not only overcome the increased cost of logistics, but also the inconvenience (which, especially for a small guy without his own JF alt, hampers agility) and the risk.

I expect some things to happen more in null - t1 hulls and fuel blocks for local consumption, for example - but T2 is hampered by the double-wammy of lack of market and lack of key materials. Honestly, I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to see robust markets develop in null to justify import of the foreign goo, but the impediments to that go way beyond the scope of industry.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#482 - 2014-04-30 22:35:37 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
What industrialists want, in real life or otherwise:

1. Cost certainty
2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at)
3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)


No, Dinsdale. What real industrialists want is an opportunity to make a profit because they are better at what they do than the next chump. This is PvP writ large in the spreadsheets of the cluster.

If there is the opportunity to disrupt someone else's industry, people will do it. Some will do it for the jollies, others will do it because the cost of disrupting someone else's activity is less than the profit to be made from that disruption.

What industrialists want is simple:

  1. A dynamic market place which is observable, predictable, and preferably triggerable
  2. Ways to manage risk to self
  3. Ways to increase risk to others


Thus as an industrialist if you seek the conservative path that Dinsdale outlined, you will end up making a tiny profit in the chaotic seas of the market, while others who are braver will find massive profits (and losses) by pushing closer to the wind, surfing larger waves, or capsizing their competitors' boats.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#483 - 2014-04-30 22:37:29 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
350125GO wrote:
This change is very bad for the small industrialist/small corps, and especially bad for new players that may be interested in industry.



Maybe not. Small corps and solo players tend to be rather nimble.


at walking away fromt he game

... and yet the player base continues to grow, year after year... Blink

citation needed.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#484 - 2014-04-30 22:41:49 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

Thus as an industrialist if you seek the conservative path that Dinsdale outlined, you will end up making a tiny profit in the chaotic seas of the market, while others who are braver will find massive profits (and losses) by pushing closer to the wind, surfing larger waves, or capsizing their competitors' boats.


I see two ways to approach it, lower risk with higher capital investment to maximize profit through scale and higher risk with lower capital input but with bigger gains/losses. This is messing with the lower risk methods to an extent by introducing more variables.

When I say lower risk I mean in ROI. Those choosing the lower risk path are putting huge sums of isk on the line and are therefore taking huge risks too but in a different way
Optimo Sebiestor
The New Eden School of trade
Organization of Skill Extracting Corporations
#485 - 2014-04-30 22:59:44 UTC
And we need this because??
Aria Jimbojohnson
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#486 - 2014-04-30 23:03:16 UTC
So pretty much every dev response so far is basically "We're pushing out the bare minimum version that is functional and may iterate in the future". Really? I've come to expect CCP to halfass features, but one as big as industry? Halfassing such a huge part of the game and "maybe or maybe not" iterating on it later is shockingly bad.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#487 - 2014-04-30 23:04:54 UTC
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:
And we need this because??

Because hiring coked out scientists and industrialists to use for a tiny portion of their meaningless lives and then discarding them to rehab facilities to eke out a few extra percent of profit is freaking cool.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2014-04-30 23:10:25 UTC
Can I setup the rehab centres and fleece the empires?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#489 - 2014-04-30 23:16:19 UTC
I like the rest of the changes, which mostly move more toward a more understandable industry system that scales better with future growth of the EVE world and that sacrifices none of the depth of strategic choice in production.

This system, however, just strikes me as complexity for complexity's sake.

Is it CCP's design intention that absolutely all production of low margin, low production time, high material input products (such as tech 1 battleships) will have to chase around these teams or face their small margins dropping to less than zero? For those battleships that are presently profitable to build at all (say the Dominix), margins are a couple of percent. Dropping production costs under 'perfect' situations by 3% will mean that producing battleships without an ME team is a loss making proposition.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#490 - 2014-04-30 23:30:06 UTC
Querns wrote:
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:
And we need this because??

Because hiring coked out scientists and industrialists to use for a tiny portion of their meaningless lives and then discarding them to rehab facilities to eke out a few extra percent of profit is freaking cool.


What are you, twelve? :)

Anyways, the most interesting part was at the end, the three "upgrades", without them, this is in danger of becoming a whack -a-mole mechanic, especially with any kind of organisational ability of player groups.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#491 - 2014-04-30 23:31:51 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Can I setup the rehab centres and fleece the empires?



Who needs rehab centres.

Biomass plants.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#492 - 2014-04-30 23:56:55 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Thus as an industrialist if you seek the conservative path that Dinsdale outlined, you will end up making a tiny profit in the chaotic seas of the market, while others who are braver will find massive profits (and losses) by pushing closer to the wind, surfing larger waves, or capsizing their competitors' boats.


I see two ways to approach it, lower risk with higher capital investment to maximize profit through scale and higher risk with lower capital input but with bigger gains/losses. This is messing with the lower risk methods to an extent by introducing more variables.

When I say lower risk I mean in ROI. Those choosing the lower risk path are putting huge sums of isk on the line and are therefore taking huge risks too but in a different way


Why wouldn't the people with the larger capital base also choose the higher risk option? Surely if you have lots of ISK you can put more horses in the high-stakes races and manage your risk by having lots of little things that you risk, rather than one big thing that you risk?

Contrast the two options when you are starting with the same capital base, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#493 - 2014-04-30 23:57:45 UTC
Querns wrote:
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:
And we need this because??

Because hiring coked out scientists and industrialists to use for a tiny portion of their meaningless lives and then discarding them to rehab facilities to eke out a few extra percent of profit is freaking cool.


Inferno, round 2.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#494 - 2014-04-30 23:58:12 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
350125GO wrote:
This change is very bad for the small industrialist/small corps, and especially bad for new players that may be interested in industry.



Maybe not. Small corps and solo players tend to be rather nimble.


at walking away fromt he game

... and yet the player base continues to grow, year after year... Blink

oh really? cause what i see, is less and less player online...and the stats say i'm right
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#495 - 2014-04-30 23:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Eurynome Mangeiri
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:
And we need this because??

cause CCP is bored and rather break things that are working than tackle real problems like bugs, pos, sov...
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#496 - 2014-05-01 00:02:05 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

Why wouldn't the people with the larger capital base also choose the higher risk option? Surely if you have lots of ISK you can put more horses in the high-stakes races and manage your risk by having lots of little things that you risk, rather than one big thing that you risk?

Contrast the two options when you are starting with the same capital base, otherwise it doesn't make sense.


They are more risk averse and would prefer a lower % return with lower risk. The are the industrial/trader players who don't want the higher risk option. That is why many don't like the increasing number of variables in the industry gameplay. The more variables there are the less options remain in the lower risk trading area
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#497 - 2014-05-01 00:15:52 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Why wouldn't the people with the larger capital base also choose the higher risk option? Surely if you have lots of ISK you can put more horses in the high-stakes races and manage your risk by having lots of little things that you risk, rather than one big thing that you risk?

Contrast the two options when you are starting with the same capital base, otherwise it doesn't make sense.


They are more risk averse and would prefer a lower % return with lower risk. The are the industrial/trader players who don't want the higher risk option. That is why many don't like the increasing number of variables in the industry gameplay. The more variables there are the less options remain in the lower risk trading area


Further, CCP now has, quite literally, dozens of new levers to play with, constantly making huge impact by changing numbers by tiny amounts. That is ALSO massive risk for industrialists, as they try to adjust to some new paradigm, only to see radically altered with an overnight release, because their null buddies are not satisfied with the massive gifts handed to them now.
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute
#498 - 2014-05-01 00:21:27 UTC
Quote:
All jobs now require a workforce. All jobs automatically have regular workforce attached, so no special action will be required to start jobs We're not exactly sure how you capsuleers were able to build things without one before!


Robotic Assembly Modules
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#499 - 2014-05-01 00:26:07 UTC
Such nuanced and heavy dialog! Let's take a short break with a team-related comedy interlude.

Teams!

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Valterra Craven
#500 - 2014-05-01 00:30:01 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

BNC.E was able to max out 3 stations 24-7 with only a few people running t2 comp jobs. And that was just a small fraction of output that the entire alliance was capable of.


Those 3 stations were in 3 different systems right?

It's relatively easy to find 3 stations in one system in highsec. That's 3x the bidding power if it is organized because all 3 stations can benefit from and focus on one team. The nullsec people have to bid on 3 teams to get all 3 stations producing with team bonuses.



Accept that now that doesn't matter since there are infinite slots. Had that been the case back then we would have just used one station given the volume of m3 we were moving around.