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@ CCP Omen

I don't disagree that the old taxes were extremely small, and few people seemed to complain at double tax rates. This is probably proof that they were way too low.

But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.

A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over.

Dear Omen. You did pick as taxation base most expensive PI producs and bad time, after announce of POCO prices hyperinflate. Did you moticed that 80% products are soled under 50% peice markup of your picked goods? Like Electrolytes? I' do my PI harvesting over 7 months and average price for electolytes was around 300 not 450. Not to mention other comodities like bacteria with average price around 80?

That just for my part of P1 producs because I never was interested in higher PI producs, because is just pain in ass to operate PI, setup factory, route product, route materials to factory etc. there is no easy interface for PI. I think that will be target when you announced changes in PI, to simplify UI make it less clicky. Posibility to setup more factories per one click, automatic production routing like automatic feeding with resources to factory from launchpad. Posibility to use and move goods to Storage from Launchpad not by using expeditions, reuse of command center. ETC. PI need whole big rework, but you did pick up completely unnecessary thing like POCO. Please learn to listen, right?

The fact that you cannot retrieve and redeploy PI hardware is a major issue. POCO doesn't feel like an investment if you cannot take it down.

Compared to this, in POS reaction business all hardware that is used can be relocated and reused. You pay for the JF fuel and for the POS running costs, but relocation never means loss of production hardware.

Fix this for PI and I'm sure people are a lot more happy putting up ISKies for POCO hardware (and taking risks in low/null sec with command centers).

Also with POSes you can abandon the hardware "dead in space" for later restart, with PI you are limited by number of planets you can have command centers on, so you cannot abandon CCs/factories and set up elsewhere, only to return to the initial place at a later date.

The fact that you cannot retrieve and redeploy PI hardware is a major issue. POCO doesn't feel like an investment if you cannot take it down.

Compared to this, in POS reaction business all hardware that is used can be relocated and reused. You pay for the JF fuel and for the POS running costs, but relocation never means loss of production hardware.

Fix this for PI and I'm sure people are a lot more happy putting up ISKies for POCO hardware (and taking risks in low/null sec with command centers).

Also with POSes you can abandon the hardware "dead in space" for later restart, with PI you are limited by number of planets you can have command centers on, so you cannot abandon CCs/factories and set up elsewhere, only to return to the initial place at a later date.

@ CCP Omen

I don't disagree that the old taxes were extremely small, and few people seemed to complain at double tax rates. This is probably proof that they were way too low.

But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.

A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over.

I'm stick with my feel that CCP has no clue about PI and how they did setup planetary resources.

I'm pure P1 producer who sell it to market. I now with 17% tax does pay daily 1mil per planet for export. I operate at rich planets in C1,C2 and C3 WH with direct connection into HigSec (static exists). I do operate with 9 characters on 45 planets each character is setup in own WH-space.

I harvest each planet in WH-space no longer than 20 days, because planets goes depleted! Notice this planet get depleted after 20 days! Production per head goes from 300 under 200. Even I do move my extractor or rebuild whole site every 5 to 6 days I got planet depleted after 20 days. My skills in Planetology and Advanced Planetology are on level 5 and all 9 characters. I must leave WH and find another one WH with not used planets at least once per month.

Per whole my harvesting period I would only pay up to 25 mil per planet when I do accept 17% Interbus Taxes. I have no reason to put up any POCO worth 200mil simply because I can't pack it up when I don't use planet anymore.

20 day WH cycle cost

• 300 mil inital cost
• 1bil exporting taxes
• ------------
• 1,3 bil ISK total

profit is 5 bil (from sale) - 1,3 bil (cost) = 3,7 bil. BTW this calculation include new taxes, I had same profit before new taxes as after taxes, because simply market prices goes up factoring new taxes. So I don't cry river I just pointing it up. My profit would be same meay be better, because a lot people really quit PI as may be I would too.

setting up 45 PoCO would cost 9 bil, profit would be -5,3 bil

I can't produce PI with all 9 characters at same 5 planets because then planets goes dry in one week at all. Nobody from CCP really did realize that, even most rich planets in WH space can't support harvetsing by more than single person per 20 days. If I mention harvesting I do mean real intensive drilling with 1 day 45 minutes cycle to archieve cycle per harvester 15 minutes with 10 heads and 10 basic factories to reprocess all harvested materials to P1 in 24 hours cycle. Planet goes dry after 20 days and I'm unable to find any spot to feed up 10 factories afterall. When my resource production fall under 50k raw materials/hour I must abandon planet.

Resource regen is pure trues sec based so -1.0 planets have best resource regen and even these planets goes dry after 20 days. In 0.0 where average true sec are -0.4 is not possible even maintain setup with 10 factories and one harvester to keep these 10 factories up and running. If there would be POCO then that planet would be shared by more than 1 person and planet goes even dry sooner and is impossible to feed 10 factories with raw materials.

Planet with POCO and harvested by more than one person runing multiple sites would not produce enough resources to generate enough profit to justify time hastle with PI. Not to mention it is true pain to operate (setup via) clicking everything on planet. It was and still remains only poor man "job" in EVE.

To sum it up:

• Nobody did count factor that planet has limited resource regens, so more people using planet mean less profit for everyone. Implied more people operating on harvest planet doesn't mean faster POCO investment return.
• Only production planets having POCOs will pay up back POCO, but as I know one production planet need harvest P1 materials at least from 4 to 5 planets.

At end I have no problem with POCOs because I see that in my WH space these will not be replaced anytime soon. Anyway I stop my operations for now (abandoned all 45 planets) and sitting on my stockpile of P1 producst now worth around 20 bil and I'm sure it will be doubled may be trippled in next two weeks. Cheers CCP Omen, you really got back in old CCP track, we have always right. But customers vote with theirs legs, you should remember it.

I will see if POCOs will get replaced in WH space or not. If POCOs get replaced or Interbus COs will get destroyed I will stop doing PI. I will not resub 4 accounts and will have only remaining 2 active with 60 to 80 bil buffer to play with it. I wouldn't loose only who will loose will be CCP, even I do buy PLEXes these plexes still someone did buy for real money from CCP. I don't expect that people in WH-space would like to share theirs planets with me.

BTW DUST is just "hype", because who does play PS3 games would play it not more than few months. Good new game on PS3 come out to market every few months. As oposite EVE does exists since 2003 I never saw any kind of game on consoles to sold and be played so long. You shooting own legs with this aproach and changing maket focus on things called "hype".

We did take that into account but if we did it successfully, only time will tell. There is a 50% discount to import that is a little hard to spot so that helps a bit. Secondly, we have done some simulations in excel and there are some interesting opportunities to optimize your PI setup to minimize the amount of import/exports nececarry. We beleive you will figure this out and perhaps even enjoy doing it.

What we also hope will happen is that cheap lowsec POCOs are used to assemble the most expensive parts and thereby spreading the risk between highsec and lowsec but that's just me speculating.

Regards
Omen

Per my previous post basing the tax on market values still seems like a good move going forward tho I think the heart of the problem is the rate picked/calculated as the Market Rate in setting the new taxes.

You unfortunately picked a point where prices had already been impacted on by the specter of this change and the PI Fuel Block change so had already reacted upwards a fair amount.

Prior to these announcements Robotics had settled down below 50K isk a unit and Broadcast node around 900 K so again I feel it would have been more diligent to have opted for a quarterly average market value to pick as the base for the tax.

Possibly also having the rate slowly increase to this new rate over the course of a week could have reduced the sudden shock factor !?

The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.