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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2014-04-30 14:51:25 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yes, online/offline shenanigans is something we need to think about.

calculate once at downtime, use that value for the next day


Could you not then online a whole raft of labs before downtime and offline them after? There would need to be some form of length of time online included to determine the actual use of the structure. This would make sense too as production line facilities are loathed to shut down usually as it takes time to get back up to optimal efficiency
Hamarr Stedi
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#522 - 2014-04-30 15:32:16 UTC
At first I was really excited when I heard this expansion was going to be industry focused. But apparently your idea of an "expansion" is merely adding a bunch of unnecessary headaches and complexity, sticking it to highsec, and ******* over POS owners. Please, please, please do the summer expansion on something other than industry. Go screw over some other area of the game.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#523 - 2014-04-30 15:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Banko Mato
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yes, online/offline shenanigans is something we need to think about.

calculate once at downtime, use that value for the next day


Could you not then online a whole raft of labs before downtime and offline them after? There would need to be some form of length of time online included to determine the actual use of the structure. This would make sense too as production line facilities are loathed to shut down usually as it takes time to get back up to optimal efficiency


Attach a counter field to all affected modules, increase during each downtime. When determining bonus for a new job, count all modules with counter >1, done ;)

Edit: or save current number of modules with counter > 1 after incrementing counters, so no need to run the summarizing query every time a job is installed. Would even allow to statically display the current bonus directly in the industry UI (ofc decrement in case a module goes offline).
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2014-04-30 15:52:49 UTC
Banko Mato wrote:


Edit: or save current number of modules with counter > 1 after incrementing counters, so no need to run the summarizing query every time a job is installed. Would even allow to statically display the current bonus directly in the industry UI (ofc decrement in case a module goes offline).


Just save the time a module was onlined. If the time is not > some amount then don't include the module in the calculation
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#525 - 2014-04-30 16:27:24 UTC
finally, i'd rather make bunch of clicks instead of getting that summer patch where lots of stuff (POS, standings just to give example) have been fully forgotten...

I'm not playing to get headaches finding, calculating where's the best place to build and moving assets all around new eden.

@CCP : Do you never thought that, IF people need 3rd party tools to do the things the good way (not the best, but nearly the best), then your conception of it is not correct.

To say, if THIS comes out, we will HAVE TO use third party tools for our margin not to be eaten buy people doing the same but better than us.

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Fuzzy Monkei
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#526 - 2014-04-30 16:37:56 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yes, online/offline shenanigans is something we need to think about.

calculate once at downtime, use that value for the next day


Could you not then online a whole raft of labs before downtime and offline them after? There would need to be some form of length of time online included to determine the actual use of the structure. This would make sense too as production line facilities are loathed to shut down usually as it takes time to get back up to optimal efficiency


Yes You could online/offline a load of labs or assembly arrays for down time to determine the bonuses for tomorrow. This sounds like an interesting useful and valid game play mechanic. What was invalid was online/offline many times durring the day so that you got the online bonus to both manufacturing and research. With the once per day calc at down time you need to choose where the bonus is, not shift it around durring the day.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#527 - 2014-04-30 16:55:39 UTC
Fuzzy Monkei wrote:

Yes You could online/offline a load of labs or assembly arrays for down time to determine the bonuses for tomorrow. This sounds like an interesting useful and valid game play mechanic. What was invalid was online/offline many times durring the day so that you got the online bonus to both manufacturing and research. With the once per day calc at down time you need to choose where the bonus is, not shift it around durring the day.

yeah, this is basically what i was thinking: you can only shift once per day, so you're stuck with that choice for the day. under any system you can offline all the arrays after you've installed your jobs cause cost is set on install.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Tvashnar Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#528 - 2014-04-30 17:07:21 UTC
"We experimented with faking a market, with the server acting as the seller, but while functional that approach ended up being bad gameplay (prices would rise in a system until a significant number of players moved elsewhere, which is pretty rubbish)."

This is *exactly* what you want...Unless you want all manufacturing to move to Jita and other market hubs.
Fuzzy Monkei
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#529 - 2014-04-30 17:16:31 UTC
Tvashnar Crendraven wrote:
"We experimented with faking a market, with the server acting as the seller, but while functional that approach ended up being bad gameplay (prices would rise in a system until a significant number of players moved elsewhere, which is pretty rubbish)."

This is *exactly* what you want...Unless you want all manufacturing to move to Jita and other market hubs.



No, that is horrible game play. What you want is a stable production platform. There will be lots of moving around in the month or three after the patch, but then the economy and costs will have stabelized and you won't have to move. A fairly lumpy land scape with stable prices is much better. A constant wax and wane, constant moving around, is not good for industry or industrialists.
Kblackjack54
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#530 - 2014-04-30 17:47:05 UTC
Seems CCP is proposing yet another kick in the groin for Null Sec Industrialist with a 50% hyke in fuel consumption for all Jump Drives.

Unless some clear details are forth coming on these changes and how they affect Null Sec station operations, based on the above coupled with increases in operating costs will make Null Construction an almost profitless occupation which is strange considering CCP's stated intention to increase Null Sec activity.

If they believe that Alliances are going to recruit masses of Care bears and move them into Null Sec just to mine Minerals and Ice they really do not understand much at all about the way things work out there or the environment they themselves generated with there constant tinkering with Minerals and Ice.

Resource mining is a singular occupation undertaken by a few, despised by most and preyed upon by almost everyone and painfully unprofitable if you take into account the losses sustained and the low volume low price market for what they produce in Null Sec, now shipping costs are being increased by 50% I for one will be producing for Corp only.

Most of us stopped Ice mining totally the last so called update CCP did to that aspect and it has got so bad in some areas that Heavy Water for Roquals is almost impossible to find locally when at one time along with Stront it was almost a waste product.

Zero incentive to mine Minerals and Ice in Null Sec all adds up to a very sterile market, increasing shipping costs and decreasing construction incentives means it will remain that way, I can see shopping trip roams for ships and parts to the nearest Empire hub becoming more common rather than shipping them in as happens currently, seems your going the wrong way CCP on this track, Not going to increase Null Sec utilization one iota and whoever thought it would among your lot needs to take a reality check.

Clara Trevlyn
Carry on Capsuleering
#531 - 2014-04-30 18:14:56 UTC
There is no coherent strategy here, it's all over the place.

All you needed to do for an industry expansion was finish refactoring/rewriting the POS code (is that not what you had started with all the new deployables etc), and then use that throwing a few long asked for improvements (hire out POS slots, make starting multiple identical jobs simple, etc) into the mix.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#532 - 2014-04-30 19:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
CCP Greyscale wrote:
(This post out of order because the forum ate it first time.)
Petard, meet Greyscale. Greyscale, petard.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Added to this, we wanted to get rid of slots for a variety of reasons (importantly that they scale badly with population and act as a hard limit which distorts decision-making),
Since hard limits are bad, can we *please* visit the corporate office hard limit of 24 per station?

MDD
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#533 - 2014-04-30 19:25:09 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The balance between this "push" force and the varying "pull" that Teams will exert gives players two forces to balance against each other, with gameplay deriving from figuring out how to best balance those two forces and looking for places where you can out-decide other players to gain competitive advantage.


For null-sec, the cost of logistics acts as another 'push'. The need to use jump freight to import foreign goos and export finished goods now has a very strong damping influence on null industry. The labor cost landscape combined with the posibility of hiring teams might have been enough to counteract this were it not for the increase in jump freight costs that were just announced.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#534 - 2014-04-30 19:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Yes, online/offline shenanigans is something we need to think about.

Querns wrote:
In this regard, perhaps use the online timestamp to "debounce" the calculation. Any array that has been online for <30 minutes, or some other time limit, does not count towards the total number of modules.

This can still be gamed, by having your assembly jobs start on Tuesday and your research jobs start on Friday (for example).

But I think we're on the right track: only consider modules which have a onlined timestamp <= now - current job's duration. This may need to have some floor added to it ( a few hours? ) to prevent shenanigans with short job run times. And maybe a ceiling ( 7 days? ) to prevent unnecessary squealing from capital & supercapital builders. Lol

MDD
LiKuei
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#535 - 2014-04-30 19:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: LiKuei
Intent: Improve the Industry by giving the cartels a way to establish markets and have one less thing to complain about.
Result: Cartel are STILL not going to use the resources they have in their areas to do anything but profit off of renters.

Intent: Shake up the Highsec Industry game to encourage (i.e. FORCE) players to work for the cartels.
Result: Discouraging players that may actually consider it by making the logistics cost prohibitive.

Intent: Improve the game for all players.
Result: THIS player votes for the changes with her wallet. Two more subscriptions cancelled.

Was it just Industry that did this? Nope. You killed my wallet with this and the changes to Exploration. Thanks for helping me save for my next game or vacation.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#536 - 2014-04-30 19:43:01 UTC
Faction LP Ships and Modules built from BPC.

This area of industry just got a bit more interesting. I have no experience manufaturing faction ships, but modules often have trivial material costs (most costs come from tags). I have not done the math, but if the market price is used to calculate build cost I suspect prices should rise a bit in the short term to cover that.

Need to do some research.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#537 - 2014-04-30 19:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
I'm getting worried about the POS issue. The way the expansion sits now, POSes are being devalued, especially large POSes and all the modules that go with them. This is having an impact though the market. It is devaluating the entire PI chain. Is that really a desirable outcome?

I like the idea that the cost of using a POS array is based only on the activity at that array, without consideration of the rest of the system. That gives incentive to have a big POS with lots of labs, to spread out the work. Between that and the lack of an NPC tax, it might just be reasonable to use a POS. Maybe, just to avoid getting too absurd, there needs to be a higher lower limit to the cost.

If the above is done, then POS arrays should not be counted toward the total number of industry lines in any system. They become sort of an independent system.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#538 - 2014-04-30 20:30:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
As in, total global hours for each activity type?


Yeah, so we can model what sort of costs we can expect post-patch. Whatever it is at this moment is 'good enough' for that sort of modeling.


I've got the OK to release those numbers but the guy who has the data has gone home for the day (I only have percentages in my working sheet). I'll try and post them up tomorrow morning.

Did these get posted? I didn't see them.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
#539 - 2014-04-30 21:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyxportur
Any chance of capsuleers getting an api.eveonline.com in regard to the manufacturing 'actvity' numbers, since we have public stats for the other activities (NPC kills, jumps, etc.)?

EDIT: Since it seems like the cost modifiers can change rapidly based on rapid shifts in activity (particularly post-patch), this would seem to have long-term value by players regardless of where we live in the game.
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
#540 - 2014-04-30 21:25:32 UTC
Does this mean that if CCP permits nullsec to put more than one outpost in a system (capped at the number of planets in a system), the cost modifers for two+ outposts in the same system would be the same?