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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

First post First post First post
Author
Ludacrys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#401 - 2014-04-30 17:51:23 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Ludacrys wrote:

Also you are rendering ever spreadsheet unusable since the costs asociated with manufacturing and invention are hidden behind a thick layer of nonsense, was this intended?


Are you seriously trying to tell me you consider purist spreadsheets online preferable to having more mechanics that allow intelligent, aggressive decisions to undermine your competitors?



Nobody plays this game to manufacture. Manufacturing, ratting, etc are a means to buy PVP ships and shoot each other.
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#402 - 2014-04-30 17:51:29 UTC
Not sure if anyone has brought this up but do you realize that industry guys are getting "crew members" before the pvp space ship guys?!? Shocked

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits

Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#403 - 2014-04-30 17:53:06 UTC
I stopped doing indy stuff quite a long time ago.

I'm going to look forward to playing with this and seeing how it pans out. From my understanding it's going to add an interesting dimension to the industrial process.

Looking forward to it.

Aaaaaaand relax.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#404 - 2014-04-30 17:53:20 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Cultural Enrichment wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Kendra Zane wrote:
It sounds like a reasonable idea but I'm concerned that most of the teams will end up in the same few systems because of the concentration of industry happening there and the easier spread of costs.

I do like the idea of team creation being a PI activity.

How many teams can be active in a system at once? How many active over the whole of New Eden? How often do they "spawn"?

EDIT: This all feels a little too dynamic. Industry doesn't like moving around so it wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with a mostly similar cost for building the same thing, be it in a busy or empty system.


The total number of teams is determined by how fast they are seeded. We will adjust this number based on usage and on how many different teams we have (for instance the seeding will speed up when we add invention teams). Currently it is around six teams per hour.

6 teams created each hour, as in 144 each day, over 4000 active simultanously?


This sounds about right.

so you can't buy them all to work in your WH system?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#405 - 2014-04-30 17:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Seith Kali
Ludacrys wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
Ludacrys wrote:

Also you are rendering ever spreadsheet unusable since the costs asociated with manufacturing and invention are hidden behind a thick layer of nonsense, was this intended?


Are you seriously trying to tell me you consider purist spreadsheets online preferable to having more mechanics that allow intelligent, aggressive decisions to undermine your competitors?



Nobody plays this game to manufacture. Manufacturing, ratting, etc are a means to buy PVP ships and shoot each other.


Well that's not entirely true. I rarely PVP yet I fully enjoy using my disgusting piles of money to come up with more elaborate and devious ways of taking yours.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#406 - 2014-04-30 17:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
double post, sorry

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#407 - 2014-04-30 17:57:30 UTC
Also, it said the cost of a team would be more expensive depending on how far away from their base the winning system is in. What does this do to wormholes, since Eve lists them as infinitely far away from anywhere in k-space?

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#408 - 2014-04-30 18:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Put a delay between the end of the auction for a team and when that team becomes available for use in the winning system. Have the team loaded aboard NPC haulers (which already exist; remember those NPC docking & undocking you see?) Have the NPC haulers travel to the winning system. Give incentive to shoot NPC haulers. Allow players to interdict teams from systems (shoot the NPC haulers).

Edit: I suppose that cargo scanners would need to reveal the NPC hauler contents, too (by team name).

MDD
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#409 - 2014-04-30 18:01:18 UTC
350125GO wrote:
Also, it said the cost of a team would be more expensive depending on how far away from their base the winning system is in. What does this do to wormholes, since Eve lists them as infinitely far away from anywhere in k-space?

As repeatedly stated in-thread, wormholes are counted as being 50 jumps away for the purposes of pricing.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here

Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#410 - 2014-04-30 18:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayem See
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Put a delay between the end of the auction for a team and when that team becomes available for use in the winning system. Have the team loaded aboard NPC haulers (which already exist; remember those NPC docking & undocking you see?) Have the NPC haulers travel to the winning system. Give incentive to shoot NPC haulers. Allow players to interdict teams from systems (shoot the NPC haulers).

MDD


Make them be collected by players. Players that collect them automatically have a suspect/criminal flag. Oh yeah - make them 2500m3. Big smile

Aaaaaaand relax.

350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#411 - 2014-04-30 18:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: 350125GO
Gamer4liff wrote:
350125GO wrote:
Also, it said the cost of a team would be more expensive depending on how far away from their base the winning system is in. What does this do to wormholes, since Eve lists them as infinitely far away from anywhere in k-space?

As repeatedly stated in-thread, wormholes are counted as being 50 jumps away for the purposes of pricing.


Thanks,

I read the first few pages, I don't have full time to read 20+ pages.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#412 - 2014-04-30 18:05:10 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Put a delay between the end of the auction for a team and when that team becomes available for use in the winning system. Have the team loaded aboard NPC haulers (which already exist; remember those NPC docking & undocking you see?) Have the NPC haulers travel to the winning system. Give incentive to shoot NPC haulers. Allow players to interdict teams from systems (shoot the NPC haulers).

MDD


Make them be collected by players. Players that collect them automatically have a suspect/criminal flag. Oh yeah - make them 2500m3. Big smile

I'm not sure how that could be made workable. It isn't like the team is going to do anything but try to make their way to the winning system, so how capturing them from the wreck would be useful eludes me.

MDD
Ludacrys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#413 - 2014-04-30 18:12:28 UTC
PLEASE make them silent auctions, setting my alarm to log into eve to bid on this its just bad game mechanics
Abla Tive
#414 - 2014-04-30 18:14:08 UTC
I fear that teams may be unbalancing because of how easy it is to over-produce.

Wait for a great team for a particular item to show up and snipe the bidding to put it into a quiet production spot.
(or simply wait to see where they end up and then go there) Then flood the system with jobs (note you are still being charged relatively cheaply because the costs lag somewhat). Overproduce the item and sell your stocks off for a year or so.
Leave desolation in that system behind you as costs are now high and without the great team, there is no point to running jobs there

You should be able to make good coin off your stocks at a price where everyone else is losing isk (at least until the next roll of the die produces another great team)
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#415 - 2014-04-30 18:15:08 UTC
Ludacrys wrote:
PLEASE make them silent auctions, setting my alarm to log into eve to bid on this its just bad game mechanics


Welcome to Eve.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#416 - 2014-04-30 18:18:26 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

You what also is not boring?


Not your posts?

Seriously though, let's take a look at RL for a second.

60 years ago the UK was a manufacturer, it made things. Then ~economics~ happened and the manufacturing got shut and moved where the labour was cheap. Now China's economy is growing in the next 5-10 years it's like manufacturing will move again.

10 years ago everyone was talking about shutting down their call centres and moving them to India for cheaper labour. Now all the outsourced call centres are in the philippines. NOW they are moving back because the lower cost isn't worth the hassle they get from their customers.

In central Europe, three well known car manufacturers that directly compete with each other have teamed up because they can pool their resources to produce their goods dirt cheap, and then simply compete on the market.

For years now the American government has been funneling money into it's uncompetitive industries to keep them afloat. If you produce in empire space you've chosen to produce somewhere where the government believes in free trade (at least for capsuleers). If nullsec "governments" want to funnel money into making their production competitive then so be it.

There is a famous saying which is capital knows no boundries. Money goes where it is best to invest, and when there is somewhere better it moves.

In EVE there are no restrictions on moving your capital around on a daily basis, or at least very little costs. Don't you think for one second that if companies were able to up sticks and move in a day they wouldn't do it more often if it suited them.

I suspect in practice what will happen is everyone will start clumped together with the teams concetrated, and slowly one by one people will move somewhere cheaper. Eventually those ones will become tens, hundreds and you get what happened in China, a mad rush to move all your production there. Eventually you help the economy by providing paying jobs and you need to compete more, pay more for both staff and local materials. Eventually one person says "Hey, we could save money by moving here you know..." and the whole thing happens again.

As long as you don't have to up sticks and move every month or so I can't see how it's any different from real life, albeit it's more crudley implemented here for reasons of complexity.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#417 - 2014-04-30 18:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gamer4liff
350125GO wrote:


Thanks,

I read the first few pages, I don't have full time to read 20+ pages.

Yeah no problem.

I suppose with ~4,000 teams at any given time chances are the lower quality/weird spec ones will be obtainable fairly cheaply (relative to the higher end ones, anyway), though this seems like something that we'll only know after the fact when this goes live. CCP should be ready to re-balance somewhat if even the lowest of the low quality teams are significantly out of reach for typical manufacturers.

Having some teams be region-locked could be a good way to ensure local availability at at least some level too.

Jayem See wrote:

Make them be collected by players. Players that collect them automatically have a suspect/criminal flag. Oh yeah - make them 2500m3. Big smile

4 people as 2500m3?

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here

Iorga Eeta
Hekatonkheires Industries
#418 - 2014-04-30 18:23:31 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

How are the ME/TE bonuses planned to stack at this point? 10% ME + 7.5% ME (team) + 2% ME (PoS) = 19.5% material savings from the new base?


Whatever it is it will be precisely cancelled by the slot cost increase from the popularity of your system having a team. Not that you can predict what that'll be of course. No. It'll be completely unpredictable, which is precisely the opposite of what anyone running a business wants.


Bingo.

Let's pretend you are in a planning meeting at GM for the 2016 production lines.



Let's pretend you are in the room with Steve Jobs and Sergey Brin in 2006.

Steve: Sergey, let's not compete for each others workers. It'll drive up costs for both of us!
Sergey: That's a great idea Steve! Let's not allow normal market forces affect the cost for our workers.
Steve: Not just our workers, our agreement will likely cause sticky wages for all Silicon Valley workers.

...

Market forces affect the cost of labor in real life. GM, Chrysler and Ford really do have to worry about how much labor costs the others. If GM changed their contract with the UAW, it was very likely that Chrysler and Ford would have to meet the demands of the new labor agreement themselves. It's debatable whether adding this level of reality to a video game is desirable, but it is realistic.

Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#419 - 2014-04-30 18:23:55 UTC
Gamer4liff wrote:
350125GO wrote:


Thanks,

I read the first few pages, I don't have full time to read 20+ pages.

Yeah no problem.

I suppose with ~4,000 teams at any given time chances are the lower quality/weird spec ones will be obtainable fairly cheaply (relative to the higher end ones, anyway), though this seems like something that we'll only know after the fact when this goes live. CCP should be ready to re-balance somewhat if even the lowest of the low quality teams are significantly out of reach for typical manufacturers.

Having some teams be region-locked could be a good way to ensure local availability at at least some level too.

Jayem See wrote:

Make them be collected by players. Players that collect them automatically have a suspect/criminal flag. Oh yeah - make them 2500m3. Big smile

4 people as 2500m3?


or it can be like PLEX: just because it's in the game doesn't mean you can afford it or have some unalienable human right to access.
Vivi Udan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#420 - 2014-04-30 18:30:29 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
The next in our line of Industry-focused dev blogs for the summer release takes a look at Industry Work Teams. These teams will become important parts of the new system, determining how efficient your industry works...


I assumed "Team Up" meant 'hey players, you should work together, especially because this is an MMO.'

I was wrong.

I'm very confused how adding an extra algorithm to industry tasks = "team work"
You had a chance to increase player interaction, to increase the benefits of player interaction, to decrease the huge lack of an EVE-DUST connection, and you thought this was good enough?

I am so confused.

I wonder what the CSM said would happen, but we'll never know because CCP NDA's anything that comes within 1 AU of the CSM.

The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.