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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2014-04-30 16:14:18 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Aryth wrote:

It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.




Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? Big smile


Oh we have been for a few days now since the very first blog on refines. We refined it a bit as more blogs came but the general baseline areas haven't changed.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#322 - 2014-04-30 16:14:37 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

I'm not even getting into the fact that build costs are based on a 28-day moving average, meaning the build costs can be negligible (new, fresh system) for a week, or really however long I want them to be. Because I can afford to put a 30d build of the most expensive BPOs on every slot my characters have.

wrong move: put in a 27d one, so you can then shove in a second 30d one and get double bonus off the team



But my labor costs! The uncertainty, egads....
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#323 - 2014-04-30 16:17:01 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Aryth wrote:

It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.




Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? Big smile


Oh we have been for a few days now since the very first blog on refines. We refined it a bit as more blogs came but the general baseline areas haven't changed.



When do I get my invite to the Mynnna club?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#324 - 2014-04-30 16:17:53 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:

-Without going anywhere near my absolute margin/liquid limit I can afford to throw a few billion isk at a single team.


I'm not sure what your building that you'll be able to throw a few billion isk at a team per month and still make a profit with that pathetic 7.5% bonus. I mean you must literally be shipping a few hundred billion of stock a month. I don't know what you're building. I assume it's a huge pile of BS. BS sells well in Jita.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2014-04-30 16:18:16 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Aryth wrote:

It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.




Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? Big smile


Oh we have been for a few days now since the very first blog on refines. We refined it a bit as more blogs came but the general baseline areas haven't changed.



When do I get my invite to the Mynnna club?


Too bad. You already failed not realizing its the Aryth club.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#326 - 2014-04-30 16:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadl
This sounds like quite an interesting system. With the right tweaks, you may be able to create some real economic geography with some specialized systems. My biggest fear is that you will get some parameter off and the economic systems will be dominated by one specific parameter.

My second fear concerns auction timing both sniping and the ending hour. You have already mentioned concern about last minute bids. Auctions ending at the wrong time (working hours, sleeping hours) are also an issue. Changing the auction system can reduce these issues.
Proxy bidding would allow people to bid their maximum without trying to snipe for just the right price.
Sealed actions do not show the amount encouraging people to bid their valuation as opposed to just looking at other people's bids. Sealing (hiding) the price but showing the results should work just fine. Everyone can see who is contending, but does not know how to one isk anyone. Since they don't one isk anyone sniping becomes more difficult and less relevant.
A Vickrey auction (sealed-bid second-price auction) hides the bids and forces you to pay the second highest price. Taking the second highest price lets you bid the highest you are willing to go knowing that if you win you get the discount. If you lose then your competitor must pay the highest you were ever willing to pay (avoids complicated proxy bidding).

I am suggesting that varying your auction type in design you may be able to remove some other complicated systems and coding.

Finally, I am completely in favor of mooching. If you don't like the moochers, war dec them or move to null and just kill them.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#327 - 2014-04-30 16:20:49 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Aryth wrote:

It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.




Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? Big smile


Oh we have been for a few days now since the very first blog on refines. We refined it a bit as more blogs came but the general baseline areas haven't changed.



When do I get my invite to the Mynnna club?


Too bad. You already failed not realizing its the Aryth club.

its the weaselior club :mad:

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#328 - 2014-04-30 16:20:58 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

-Without going anywhere near my absolute margin/liquid limit I can afford to throw a few billion isk at a single team.


I'm not sure what your building that you'll be able to throw a few billion isk at a team per month and still make a profit with that pathetic 7.5% bonus. I mean you must literally be shipping a few hundred billion of stock a month. I don't know what you're building. I assume it's a huge pile of BS. BS sells well in Jita.



Please. Ships are for peasants. But stock turnover exceeding 100b/month is entirely possible (and quite desirable) for a single character. I have multiple characters.



So yes, 7.5% cost savings (slightly more than that in margin gain, due to being a regressive variable) can easily be supported with billions per month.
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#329 - 2014-04-30 16:21:35 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:

No of course I can't. But I can choose to do the run knowing from the history of the product what the expected fluctuation is. That is to say, if my margin is 25% and looking at the history of the thing I'm building it's rarely fluctuated more than 10%, it's worth building. Otherwise it might not be. Regardless it's a judgement I make. No bacon involved.


So how does that differ from having a rough expectation of what your build costs are going to be? Because realistically the fluctuations I'm seeing in the system are smaller than the 10% you're already expecting in the market price anyway?

Victoria Sin wrote:

By the time I've got to that stage I may have already spent 2 or more weeks copying and inventing, maybe longer. I've committed to building whatever it is I'm going to build. I might even have bought the required materials. Then, right at the last moment when I'm set to build, only then do I get to know my additional costs? No thanks.


So buy the BPCs and materials on the market (well contract for now) and get the manufacturing in now then.

Creating T2 BPCs is a separate process from manufacturing T2 items.

I mean I presume you're not of the opinion that minerals you mine are free are you? In which case you wouldn't spend 3 weeks mining minerals to manufacture T1 ships? So why consider invention as part of the process of T2 manufacturing?
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#330 - 2014-04-30 16:22:28 UTC
Aryth wrote:

Too bad. You already failed not realizing its the Aryth club.



I want a refund.
Callic Veratar
#331 - 2014-04-30 16:22:56 UTC
I have determined a potentially viable incentive to bid on teams: All money spent as a part of the winning bid is used as credit towards the fees paid to the team.

For example, 3 of my corp mates and I decide to bid 50M each to get a good battleship manufacturing team (assume a +10% build cost for the sake of easy). If installing each battleship construction job costs 10M, I would be able to install 50 jobs to use the credit for hiring the team. If I run 60 jobs, I have to pay extra and if I run 40, I wasted 10M.

This would create a great incentive to actually pay for a team and not hope to leech off others, because by definition, anyone that doesn't pay for a team will be paying less for manufacturing using a team.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#332 - 2014-04-30 16:24:27 UTC
It's obviously the quernsclub.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#333 - 2014-04-30 16:26:11 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:

The only way you can give a confidence interval is if you know how accurate your measurement is. If you don't know how accurate it is, you haven't made a measurement and you certainly can't come up with a confidence interval. Same with this new industry system.


Course you can.

The min and max values in the system are mostly already detailed in the devblogs. You can also calculate what your current cost is. So you've already got enough information to work out what your max deviation is.

All that's left is to look at how likely the variables are to change, and how much of an effect each of those has on the build cost. That's your risk assessment.

What I don't understand is that you've just said you can do this with the market sell price - so why can't you do this with the other variables?
Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#334 - 2014-04-30 16:29:04 UTC
Im realy excited about the indy changes, but just want to throw an idea out on the workforce training.
We have strange comoditys ingame that can be used towards this, you know, janitors, slaves, soliders and such, that could be out into use.

Train them, feed them (other commoditys) and sell/rent them out.

This way some of the odditys of the game gets a use, and can be expanded on by more of edens inhabitans.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#335 - 2014-04-30 16:30:56 UTC
Dear God I thought the first couple of blogs had some rough spots in them. This whole thing is a terrible idea. This will promote a lot of volatility in items that are material intensive while leaving others completely unaffected. I was fully expecting "teams" to mean cooperative gameplay for industrial players. This is solving a problem that doesn't even exist while creating a hundred new ones.
Chic Botany
Doomheim
#336 - 2014-04-30 16:30:59 UTC
My brain aches Cry

Are you on a mission to make industry as complicated as possible so people give up on it so you can justify introducing microtransactions for stuff? or have you got shares in various pharmaceutical companies as people have breakdowns trying to work out how much how long and how the heck to build something.
Callic Veratar
#337 - 2014-04-30 16:34:51 UTC
I would also like to propose module meta teams (as an eventual thing). Rebalance the meta level 1-4 modules, decrease their drop rates in missions significantly, and add in teams that can produce +1-4 meta modules of a specific type for some extra cost (+2-8%ME?).
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#338 - 2014-04-30 16:35:20 UTC
Chic Botany wrote:
My brain aches Cry

Are you on a mission to make industry as complicated as possible so people give up on it so you can justify introducing microtransactions for stuff? or have you got shares in various pharmaceutical companies as people have breakdowns trying to work out how much how long and how the heck to build something.




Take your tinfoil elsewhere please, this is a thread for grown ups.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#339 - 2014-04-30 16:35:24 UTC
Green Gambit wrote:

What I don't understand is that you've just said you can do this with the market sell price - so why can't you do this with the other variables?


If CCP want to pile a lot of further cocking about into research and industry then that's up to them but I personally can't be arsed with it. And the 3 characters I've got dedicated to it at the moment won't be arsed to sub their $15 for it either (note: I don't buy Plex).

Making teams with PI? Teams dying at the end of the month (cue idiotic explanation)? Teams not being real players with free industry slots but these little drones the DB spawned? What is it apart from another little griefing tool CCP are handing to RvB and Goons, a further ISK sink and cost to doing business and some extra buttons the industry player has to click to get his stuff done.

Terrible.
Sturmwolke
#340 - 2014-04-30 16:35:33 UTC
Consider introducing random constellation, regional locked teams i.e. they are only willing to work within certain 2-3 constellation or 2-3 regions.
This global auction makes things a little too chaotic and panders to those with the biggest stick.

Next :
1) How are team stacking handled? e.g. if 2 teams with overlapping bonus are hired.
2) Is there a cap to the maximum number of teams that can be hired by the solar system?
3) How many teams will CCP spawn on patch day? Is there an estimate?