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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Crius] Jump Drive Isotope Consumption

First post First post First post
Author
ctrlc ctrlv
Comfortably Numb.
Brack Regen
#421 - 2014-04-30 15:43:20 UTC
All the mechanics to boost and help large power blocks on the game.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#422 - 2014-04-30 16:02:37 UTC
Katanagari wrote:
Querns wrote:
Katanagari wrote:
This change is a simple increase in transportation costs. It's bad for null sec, it's bad for highsec and in practice there isn't a single group of players who'll benefit from it.

People who mine topes benefit quite a bit! You can find those people across all bands of security space, except wormholers I guess. Poor wormholers.



People who mine topes won't benefit at all. There are two reasons for this:

1) The reduction in isotopes usage from towers will be offset by the increase in usage for jump fuel. That's the stated objective. So there will likely be no net increase in isotope demands or a sustained increase in isotope prices. There will be some movement in racial demands as caldari research towers are removed and archon jump costs increase. That is all.

You are aware that not everyone mines ice in nullsec, right? Highsec ice miners unequivocally win here.

Also, I don't have the math in front of me, but I'm pretty sure a JF does not need to consume a number of topes equal to the size of its cargohold to move topes to market. I am pretty confident that you still win, despite the increase in transportation costs.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#423 - 2014-04-30 16:07:11 UTC
Hey everyone.
For now I just wanted to drop by and make sure you know that we're not ignoring this thread, I'm reading everything.

I'll be collecting together and answering/discussing some of the points raised soon. Part of the reason I posted this before Fanfest is so that we could take advantage of all the feedback possible, but that also means that we'll be a bit slower replying to threads for the next couple days. Rest assured that we'll make it up to you next week, and we're not forgetting about this thread.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#424 - 2014-04-30 16:14:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.
For now I just wanted to drop by and make sure you know that we're not ignoring this thread, I'm reading everything.

I'll be collecting together and answering/discussing some of the points raised soon. Part of the reason I posted this before Fanfest is so that we could take advantage of all the feedback possible, but that also means that we'll be a bit slower replying to threads for the next couple days. Rest assured that we'll make it up to you next week, and we're not forgetting about this thread.


this is much appreciated. and it is a lot of information to scan through
Hopefully you will consider expanding Jump Freighter fuel bays by 40%
Thanks you for your efforts
Demotress
Systems High Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#425 - 2014-04-30 16:18:27 UTC
if you are going to do this why not also have a new skill to reduce fuel consumption like advanced jump fuel conservation and have do like 5% per level so you don't hit the market hard because too much too quick will shock the market.
Tam Althor
Commonwealth Industries
#426 - 2014-04-30 16:19:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.
For now I just wanted to drop by and make sure you know that we're not ignoring this thread, I'm reading everything.

I'll be collecting together and answering/discussing some of the points raised soon. Part of the reason I posted this before Fanfest is so that we could take advantage of all the feedback possible, but that also means that we'll be a bit slower replying to threads for the next couple days. Rest assured that we'll make it up to you next week, and we're not forgetting about this thread.



Can we at least get an answer to why you think there would be a drop in people using towers and needing less fuel after the summer expansion?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#427 - 2014-04-30 16:22:25 UTC
CCP WHY ARE YOU NERFING MY SUPER SAFE AND EASY AND CHEAP TELEPORTATION OMG GRR GOONZ

Seriously? This is a great change, and I wish they didn't reduce the volume of isotopes, either. Transportation of stuff is the biggest imbalance of risk/reward/price in Eve, almost solely attributable to the ridiculous prevalence of jump drive and jump bridge mechanics. I understand it can't be removed (yet, anyway) or some places would turn into wastelands, but really there should be more effort, risk, or money involved in transporting large amount of stuff than clicking a cyno button, then a jump button, for the price of a couple tens of millions of ISK.

All the "but my small alliance Cry" talk is crock, too. Grow a real logistics wing. I own/fly a JF, and I have run a small corp/alliance. PLEASE NERF ME, CCP. For the good of the game.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#428 - 2014-04-30 16:25:31 UTC
I just learned about Malcanis' Law. It is totally appropriate for this issue and the issues related to to it. I'm reposting it for those who, like me, hadn't heard of it before.

Malcanis' Law

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of ‘new players’, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

Though I propose a slight update:

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
Z air
Lethal Injection Inc.
#429 - 2014-04-30 16:39:23 UTC
Alternative Suggestion to adjusting the STAT's of everything.

What if, instead of Adjusting this, and that, to make it all work, why not just make a blue print for Jump Fuel.

This is going to be an Industrial Expansion after all.

If you put into play, a Jump Drive Fuel Block, much like Fuel Blocks for POS's

You can then tweak the amount of materials required to make each fuel block, as opposed to trying to change the stats on the ships each time you need to tweak something.

Heck, you could even go as far as to having Ship Type fuel in addition to Racial Type, and thus introduce some new element to the gameplay

For example

Sub Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Fuel Block tweaked for use in Black ops Ships)

Normal Cap Jump Fuel (Each racial Jump Fuel Block for Regular Capitals)

Industrial Cap Jump Fuel (For the likes of Jump Frieghters and Rorquals)

Super Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Jump Fuel Block)

This could then allow an interesting dynamic to form, could limit the use of your opponents fleets and what they field.

Additionally, it allows you to tweak the material requirements for each type of capital , without affecting all the others with one brush.

As an extra element, you could make cross racial fuel bpo's that allow you to use isotopes from another racial fuel type, to produce the same type of fuel block, but at much greater material cost.

Much like how Alchemy is for the Moon Goo
Resgo
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#430 - 2014-04-30 16:43:55 UTC
Fozzie,
If the goal of this is really to stimulate more sales of topes, why not decrease the volume of the isotopes by 50 percent rather than 33 percent and make a similar change to the volume of fuel blocks. I can guarantee that if you do that POSes will want to go to max fuel increasing the number of days between refueling and capitals will all be trying to keep a full fuel tank. The POS consumption rate would stay the same but there would be a sales bump for each new POS setup and each new cap sold. I suspect those fueling large POS farms would really appreciate having to do it less often.
Demotress
Systems High Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#431 - 2014-04-30 16:51:25 UTC
Z air wrote:
Alternative Suggestion to adjusting the STAT's of everything.

What if, instead of Adjusting this, and that, to make it all work, why not just make a blue print for Jump Fuel.

This is going to be an Industrial Expansion after all.

If you put into play, a Jump Drive Fuel Block, much like Fuel Blocks for POS's

You can then tweak the amount of materials required to make each fuel block, as opposed to trying to change the stats on the ships each time you need to tweak something.

Heck, you could even go as far as to having Ship Type fuel in addition to Racial Type, and thus introduce some new element to the gameplay

For example

Sub Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Fuel Block tweaked for use in Black ops Ships)

Normal Cap Jump Fuel (Each racial Jump Fuel Block for Regular Capitals)

Industrial Cap Jump Fuel (For the likes of Jump Frieghters and Rorquals)

Super Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Jump Fuel Block)

This could then allow an interesting dynamic to form, could limit the use of your opponents fleets and what they field.

Additionally, it allows you to tweak the material requirements for each type of capital , without affecting all the others with one brush.

As an extra element, you could make cross racial fuel bpo's that allow you to use isotopes from another racial fuel type, to produce the same type of fuel block, but at much greater material cost.

Much like how Alchemy is for the Moon Goo



with that for an idea you could have it require something like moon goo or a certain gas for super/titan fuel.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#432 - 2014-04-30 16:51:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.
For now I just wanted to drop by and make sure you know that we're not ignoring this thread, I'm reading everything.

I'll be collecting together and answering/discussing some of the points raised soon. Part of the reason I posted this before Fanfest is so that we could take advantage of all the feedback possible, but that also means that we'll be a bit slower replying to threads for the next couple days. Rest assured that we'll make it up to you next week, and we're not forgetting about this thread.


Thank you for the update. Keep doing a good job.

The Tears Must Flow

Z air
Lethal Injection Inc.
#433 - 2014-04-30 16:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Z air
Just to add an extra idea to the fray,

For things like the Super Fuel Blocks, the materials list, could require things only available in null sec,

Ie Morphite Additives

Make Morphite Relevant again
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#434 - 2014-04-30 16:55:03 UTC
Z air wrote:


For example

Sub Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Fuel Block tweaked for use in Black ops Ships)

Normal Cap Jump Fuel (Each racial Jump Fuel Block for Regular Capitals)

Industrial Cap Jump Fuel (For the likes of Jump Frieghters and Rorquals)

Super Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Jump Fuel Block)



The reason why fuel blocks were introduced were to make life easier....not harder like you are trying to suggest. You are taking currently 4 versions of fuel, and creating 13.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#435 - 2014-04-30 16:59:21 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Z air wrote:


For example

Sub Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Fuel Block tweaked for use in Black ops Ships)

Normal Cap Jump Fuel (Each racial Jump Fuel Block for Regular Capitals)

Industrial Cap Jump Fuel (For the likes of Jump Frieghters and Rorquals)

Super Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Jump Fuel Block)



The reason why fuel blocks were introduced were to make life easier....not harder like you are trying to suggest. You are taking currently 4 versions of fuel, and creating 13.

This is correct.

POS Fuel blocks make sense because the old way of fueling POS required you to balance several different types of materiel. Adding an intermediate step simplified matters. You can't simplify jump fuel any more than it is; it is only one item. Parting it out into 13 different parts adds nothing.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Z air
Lethal Injection Inc.
#436 - 2014-04-30 17:00:23 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Z air wrote:


For example

Sub Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Fuel Block tweaked for use in Black ops Ships)

Normal Cap Jump Fuel (Each racial Jump Fuel Block for Regular Capitals)

Industrial Cap Jump Fuel (For the likes of Jump Frieghters and Rorquals)

Super Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Jump Fuel Block)



The reason why fuel blocks were introduced were to make life easier....not harder like you are trying to suggest. You are taking currently 4 versions of fuel, and creating 13.



Yes, you are correct, those fuel blocks made operating pos's a lot less daunting, and we all benefited.

But im tired of seeing stuff nerfed and changed, by simply changing the stats of things

Why not change the dynamic, by adding something to the game, an extra element

Allows ccp to focus on force projection, without nerfing other parts in the process.

Unbinds them from hitting super projection hard for example, and let Jump Freighters do their good work. without suffering the Super Nerf Penalty

Colklari
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#437 - 2014-04-30 17:04:59 UTC
Z air wrote:
Alternative Suggestion to adjusting the STAT's of everything.

What if, instead of Adjusting this, and that, to make it all work, why not just make a blue print for Jump Fuel.

This is going to be an Industrial Expansion after all.

If you put into play, a Jump Drive Fuel Block, much like Fuel Blocks for POS's

You can then tweak the amount of materials required to make each fuel block, as opposed to trying to change the stats on the ships each time you need to tweak something.

Heck, you could even go as far as to having Ship Type fuel in addition to Racial Type, and thus introduce some new element to the gameplay

For example

Sub Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Fuel Block tweaked for use in Black ops Ships)

Normal Cap Jump Fuel (Each racial Jump Fuel Block for Regular Capitals)

Industrial Cap Jump Fuel (For the likes of Jump Frieghters and Rorquals)

Super Cap Jump Fuel (Each Racial Jump Fuel Block)

This could then allow an interesting dynamic to form, could limit the use of your opponents fleets and what they field.

Additionally, it allows you to tweak the material requirements for each type of capital , without affecting all the others with one brush.

As an extra element, you could make cross racial fuel bpo's that allow you to use isotopes from another racial fuel type, to produce the same type of fuel block, but at much greater material cost.

Much like how Alchemy is for the Moon Goo



Perhaps it can work like this:

Jump Freighter/Rorqual: Industrial Fuel made of Racial Ice Products and underutilized common Gas products

Carrier/Dreadnaught/SuperCarrier: Tactical Fuel made of Racial Ice products and underutilized uncommon Gas Products

Titan/BlackOps: Strategic Fuel made of Racial Ice products, Underutilized uncommon Gas products, and underutilized PI products (Wishlist item: incorporate biomass into this type)

Industrial fuel is the most basic, and is used for both jumping and fueling rorqual Industrial core (one fuel bay, woot!)

Tactical Fuel is simple to make, but can only be used for Jump Drives.

Strategic Fuel can be used for both Jump Drives and Jump Bridging (One fuel bay woot!)

Modifications to material requirements for the fuel blocks can be made without affecting ship stats.
Z air
Lethal Injection Inc.
#438 - 2014-04-30 17:12:07 UTC
Whilst we have the focus on Fuel For Jump Drives, and Industry as this summer's patch

What about instead, make an alchemy type reaction, that very ineffeciently turns one isotope into another, with the addition of null sec materials like morphite.

addelee
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#439 - 2014-04-30 17:14:23 UTC
Seems odd that there's been mention of "Help encourage cost competitiveness for local resource gathering in nullsec."

CCP deliberately create bottlenecks on manufacturing and ice anyway by always missing one vital build resource (or ice) per region. To seriously manufacture in null, you need to come to highsec. And now this change will raise the cost and very little benefit.

It's meant to be a PvP game and if the cost of going to war increases (which this change will effect) wars will be smaller and less frequent.

I just don't really understand why this change is even needed...
Saint Hecate
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#440 - 2014-04-30 17:21:34 UTC
I really worry about how much of an impact this is going to have on nullsec markets. It can be a nightmare having a decently seeded market out in null unless your apart of a large alliance. Even in LAWN our market isnt the greatest and we are a CFC alliance.


I kind of hope this change doesnt go through just for the little guys. Im lucky to have built up the infrastructure to be able to survive/make isk in null and generally get what I need done but for newer pilots/alliances this may add an even higher hurdle they need to hop to even survive in null. I remember first starting out years ago where high market prices and having a hard time generating isk made Null very very difficult to function in as a newer pilot. Back in the days when Drake fleet was still super popular :P

Hopefully this is written well enough to get my point across haha

Thanks for your time Fozzie

Best wishes
Saint