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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#301 - 2014-04-30 16:00:45 UTC
for this game you pay $5 to enter, and get $10 if the random number we pick between 1 and 10 is lower than eight and nothing if it's eight, nine or ten

"we don't know what the number will be, we can't decide if we should play!!!!!" - the average highsec industrialist

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#302 - 2014-04-30 16:00:50 UTC
Not going to lie, this was somewhat of a disappointment. I was expecting Teams finally allowing for multiple characters working on the same project to complete the job faster. This is....meh.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#303 - 2014-04-30 16:03:01 UTC
The team idea seems to encourage industrialists settling in the same system while the scaled manufacturing costs is supposed to discourage the hubs. This doesn't make sense, unless all you want is people to put up POS to do all industry. This change is very bad for the small industrialist/small corps, and especially bad for new players that may be interested in industry.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#304 - 2014-04-30 16:03:53 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Riela Tanal wrote:
So why are the teams NPCs instead of composed of players? Seems more like focusing more on solo work then a combined effort for industrial operations. I was envisioning more of the team aspect function in industry but I suppose I can wait and see.


Cooperative gameplay in industry requires complete rewrite of the corp role system. Hopefully that will happen soon (you didn't read this here).

Holy cow. This almost (*almost*) makes up for the complete shafting POS owners seem to be getting in the S&I blogs.

MDD
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#305 - 2014-04-30 16:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Weaselior wrote:
for this game you pay $5 to enter, and get $10 if the random number we pick between 1 and 10 is lower than eight and nothing if it's eight, nine or ten

"we don't know what the number will be, we can't decide if we should play!!!!!" - the average highsec industrialist


Are you running a business or playing in a casino? You don't do industry do you. I think you're just on here to troll.
mkint
#306 - 2014-04-30 16:04:10 UTC
Green Gambit wrote:


Erm doesn't the real-world work somewhat like that? Tech companies setup in silicon valley because there's a readily available labour market there - even though the costs can be higher.

No manufacturing company in the world will be able to tell you exactly what their labour costs will be at the end of the year - there are too many variables that can change things. What you do is budget what you expect these things to be, and ensure that you're making enough profits to cover the variabilities in your costs.

Again, a large problem in Eve currently is that because everything can be perfectly calculated in advance, everybody is willing to work on tiny profit margins. I'm looking forward to being able to take on these new risks, and make more profits at the end of the day.

Hmm... That's an interesting point... Will all the cost uncertainty drive more players OUT of industry? All those people willing to work for exceptionally narrow margins will be more likely to be wiped out of the market. They'll stop depressing the market, driving up margins for everyone else. Definitely puts up a barrier of entry on manufacturing... beyond the skills and the months of ME researched for a stable of usable BPOs.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#307 - 2014-04-30 16:04:40 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Is it public knowledge which teams are working in which systems?

Yes, they are all in my wormhole.

Wait, are we still talking about Eve? Twisted

MDD
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#308 - 2014-04-30 16:05:09 UTC
350125GO wrote:
The team idea seems to encourage industrialists settling in the same system while the scaled manufacturing costs is supposed to discourage the hubs. This doesn't make sense, unless all you want is people to put up POS to do all industry. This change is very bad for the small industrialist/small corps, and especially bad for new players that may be interested in industry.


No it isn't - highsec hubs are going to have loads of these available. Focused efforts will enable advantages in select areas of the market. It is a great addition to gameplay.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#309 - 2014-04-30 16:06:05 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
The buy price of materials and the sale price of goods fluctuates. The kind of certainties I want as a builder involves me fixing the price at the point at which I buy the materials, so I know when to sell and how much profit I've made when I do so. I can't fix the price if my production costs are going to fluctuate unpredictably between my buying the materials and my completing the job.


And so we have another - "press button, receive bacon" player.

Taking your analysis of how it works now - you can't be sure that your expected sale price is still profitable after the production run has ended, so what difference does the additional uncertainty of the manufacturing costs make?

And your British Leyland anecdote is very interesting, but you will know exactly what the build cost is - in advance - it's going to be there on screen when you click the button that says submit job.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#310 - 2014-04-30 16:06:15 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Riela Tanal wrote:
So why are the teams NPCs instead of composed of players? Seems more like focusing more on solo work then a combined effort for industrial operations. I was envisioning more of the team aspect function in industry but I suppose I can wait and see.


Cooperative gameplay in industry requires complete rewrite of the corp role system. Hopefully that will happen soon (you didn't read this here).

Holy cow. This almost (*almost*) makes up for the complete shafting POS owners seem to be getting in the S&I blogs.

MDD


They didn't say they were doing it. It was just a "hope". On past performance you'd be justified in assuming it isn't going to happen.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#311 - 2014-04-30 16:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
War Kitten wrote:
But if Chrysler moves into town, you WILL have to compete with them for labor, materials, maintenance, supplies... and that means increased costs.


That's not a given. Most auto companies use the same contract suppliers for parts, and the more auto companies use the same contractor, the more the supplier can benefit from economies of scale, the more able they are to pass those savings on to the auto companies--especially if they're under competitive pressure.

But that only reinforces the general point that there are too many variables in RL industry to achieve anything like the predictability that only MMO crafting has. If anything, it would have to become significantly more complicated to achieve anything resembling RL industry.

Just to come back to the example of automotive contract suppliers, as I worked for one for a spell: they manufacture what they're asked to, with the materials they're asked to use, to the tolerances they're told to use, and they run the QA tests they're told to run. So it's absolutely possible for a shoddy manufacturer to get cheap, poor-quality parts from the same plant, the same assembly lines and the same workers that a quality manufacturer gets their premium, high-quality parts from, because they exist to give people what they ask for--and more precisely, what they pay for.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#312 - 2014-04-30 16:06:40 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
for this game you pay $5 to enter, and get $10 if the random number we pick between 1 and 10 is lower than eight and nothing if it's eight, nine or ten

"we don't know what the number will be, we can't decide if we should play!!!!!" - the average highsec industrialist


Are you running a business or playing in a casino? You don't do industry do you. I think you're just on here to troll.

i'm running a business that sees that this activity has a positive expected value, and shoves money through it and other things with positive expected value

though some may be busts, overall I make money because i am able to understand things like expected value and tell the difference between gambling and wise but risky investment

and because you've fled the market the EV only goes up

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#313 - 2014-04-30 16:07:49 UTC
well... devblog tl;dr;
decryptors for all industry jobs \o/ but designed as team, and not the same bonuses ^^
The idea is not bad, but we'll see if it's really usefull.. (and used)

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#314 - 2014-04-30 16:08:41 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

7.5% cost savings on an entire month's production, with as many characters as I can shove into it

You are a fool, a goddamned fool, if you cannot see how amazing that would be.


So with your huge balls winning on the labour auctions all the time your system is going to be very popular for building isn't it. So subtract from your 7.5% bonus the increased cost of production for your slots, the increased cost of your office (if you need one) and the costs of actually winning the auction. Now tell me what your actual costs are.

You can't can you. You know it's > 0 and you pray it's less than the 7.5% bonus you're getting from having the team. Otherwise you have no idea.




1) Max labor cost has been calculated and is insignificant compared to savings

2) There are 4000 teams, I can afford to win a handful of even the lesser teams and still break your bank

-Without going anywhere near my absolute margin/liquid limit I can afford to throw a few billion isk at a single team.

-Every team has a positive use bonus, all are going to be more cost-effective than not having a team.

-Even if I can't bid 1T to win a team... I can just leech off the guy who does. Moving is not that hard.

3) lol office cost. Even 4-4 would be insignificant compared to cost savings.




I'm not even getting into the fact that build costs are based on a 28-day moving average, meaning the build costs can be negligible (new, fresh system) for a week, or really however long I want them to be. Because I can afford to put a 30d build of the most expensive BPOs on every slot my characters have.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#315 - 2014-04-30 16:09:31 UTC
Aryth wrote:

It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.




Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? Big smile
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#316 - 2014-04-30 16:09:37 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
It's like physics: If you don't know what your measurement error is, you haven't made a measurement. If you don't know what risk you're taking, you haven't taken a risk, you've just played roulette.


Erm last time I checked, physics meaurements come with a degree of confidence over the measurement.

And certainly I will be able to predict my labour costs within a certain degree of confidence.

So yes, looks like the new industry system will be physics, and not gambling...
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#317 - 2014-04-30 16:09:53 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:

I'm not even getting into the fact that build costs are based on a 28-day moving average, meaning the build costs can be negligible (new, fresh system) for a week, or really however long I want them to be. Because I can afford to put a 30d build of the most expensive BPOs on every slot my characters have.

wrong move: put in a 27d one, so you can then shove in a second 30d one and get double bonus off the team

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#318 - 2014-04-30 16:11:52 UTC
Green Gambit wrote:

Taking your analysis of how it works now - you can't be sure that your expected sale price is still profitable after the production run has ended, so what difference does the additional uncertainty of the manufacturing costs make?


No of course I can't. But I can choose to do the run knowing from the history of the product what the expected fluctuation is. That is to say, if my margin is 25% and looking at the history of the thing I'm building it's rarely fluctuated more than 10%, it's worth building. Otherwise it might not be. Regardless it's a judgement I make. No bacon involved.

Green Gambit wrote:

And your British Leyland anecdote is very interesting, but you will know exactly what the build cost is - in advance - it's going to be there on screen when you click the button that says submit job.


By the time I've got to that stage I may have already spent 2 or more weeks copying and inventing, maybe longer. I've committed to building whatever it is I'm going to build. I might even have bought the required materials. Then, right at the last moment when I'm set to build, only then do I get to know my additional costs? No thanks.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#319 - 2014-04-30 16:13:59 UTC
Green Gambit wrote:

Erm last time I checked, physics meaurements come with a degree of confidence over the measurement.


The only way you can give a confidence interval is if you know how accurate your measurement is. If you don't know how accurate it is, you haven't made a measurement and you certainly can't come up with a confidence interval. Same with this new industry system.

It's BS from start to finish. As I said before, I'm out. Somebody else can do all the work for meagre gains (compared to doing almost anything else in Eve). It was an interesting hobby for a while.

Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#320 - 2014-04-30 16:14:12 UTC
mkint wrote:
Hmm... That's an interesting point... Will all the cost uncertainty drive more players OUT of industry? All those people willing to work for exceptionally narrow margins will be more likely to be wiped out of the market. They'll stop depressing the market, driving up margins for everyone else. Definitely puts up a barrier of entry on manufacturing... beyond the skills and the months of ME researched for a stable of usable BPOs.


Yeah, I think one of the worst things CCP can actually do is provide current values of all the variables via an API - all that will happen is that re-worked tools will keep the "press button, receive bacon" nature that Eve industry has currently turned into.