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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#281 - 2014-04-30 15:44:10 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
So will we get an API endpoint to query a systems teams and their characterstics?
The same is needed for the new cost scaling.


API support is on our to-do list. Can't say for sure when it will be ready.
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#282 - 2014-04-30 15:45:25 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
I guess since teams can be used for POS/wormhole work, they can be summoned in systems where there isn't a station service for their respective specialty?


Yes, a team can operate in a system regardless of the system's infrastructure.



How are you calculating relocation fees for wormholes? After all...it's a matter of rolling holes until a close connection to the teams home system can be obtained.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#283 - 2014-04-30 15:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Green Gambit wrote:

No, I want uncertainies in the system, so that I can make more money by being smarter than everybody else.


You're like this guy who goes onto sommerblink and makes a crap load of isk by being "smarter than everybody else", then loses it all again because he didn't realise it was just a roulette wheel and he got lucky.

The market already provides uncertainties. The buy price of materials and the sale price of goods fluctuates. The kind of certainties I want as a builder involves me fixing the price at the point at which I buy the materials, so I know when to sell and how much profit I've made when I do so. I can't fix the price if my production costs are going to fluctuate unpredictably between my buying the materials and my completing the job.

Unlike British Leyland in the good old 1970's, which didn't have a clue how much each Mini cost it to make, I want to know precisely how much each item I build has cost me to make (Leyland went bust, FYI). If I don't have that number available I'm not going to make it. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2014-04-30 15:46:51 UTC
Midnight Hope wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
I guess since teams can be used for POS/wormhole work, they can be summoned in systems where there isn't a station service for their respective specialty?


Yes, a team can operate in a system regardless of the system's infrastructure.



How are you calculating relocation fees for wormholes? After all...it's a matter of rolling holes until a close connection to the teams home system can be obtained.

answered earlier: 50 jumps, always

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#285 - 2014-04-30 15:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Victoria Sin wrote:

Unlike British Leyland in the good old 1970's, which didn't have a clue how much each Mini cost it to make, I want to know precisely how much each item I build has cost me to make (Leyland went bust, FYI). If I don't have that number available I'm not going to make it. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal..

that's why we're going to make so much money: because we're not risk-averse *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#286 - 2014-04-30 15:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Kolonko
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
What is the cost of hiring a team compared to basic cost of running tbe job? How this scales with levels of team specialization? I cant find it in the blog.


Also, lets say the team reduces mineral cost for item by 5% and that item requires 5 units trit to build. Im runing a single run and have no benefit as 5*.95 is still 5, but if i run 4 runs of this item in the single job will it decrease the mineral cost from 20 to 19 (5*4*.95) or will it treat separate items requirment as base for calculation - round(5*.95)*4=20

The same question goes to all bonuses to manufacturing from pos modules and others bonuses to industry introduced in past industry blogs


Any chance for reply?


Team cost ranges between +2% to +18% modification on the workforce cost. So the exact ISK amount depends on the activity in the system (which affects the workforce cost). The team cost is based on the overall efficiency of the team (i.e. the efficiency levels of the team members).

The team mineral bonus is added to existing bonuses, like from BP research, so it will be a cumulative thing. As with all % reductions, the exact benefits will vary depending on BoM and number of runs, as you point out.



So is that a yes? Will %reduction bonus be applied to totall ammount of of materiall needed for a job or per unit of item? The former benefits large quantity run on items where the small % reduction on single items have no effect but it would work on summary of needed materials for entire x-run job.

Also the cost of teams is applaid to normall team cost? So for example if it costs 1 000 000 for normal workers on a specific job than it would be 1 180 000 for +18% cost team?

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#287 - 2014-04-30 15:48:27 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Bingo.

Let's pretend you are in a planning meeting at GM for the 2016 production lines.

Me (CFO): OK, what do you expect our labour costs on the new Zoomer Hybrid will be.
You: (Chief Accoutant): We dunno, labour costs are all over the place, because we will be bidding with Toyota in Japan for some really crazy workers to improve production, on an ongoing basis, and we don't even know if we will get them.
Me: That is stupid, don't we have fixed contracts with these perople? But moving on. How does our production facility look like?
You: Well, we are not sure what our costs will be there too. If Chysler moves into town, and they could any moment without notification, our costs could go up an unknown amount, especially if Ford does too.
Me: Wait, what is this about Ford and Chrysler. Don't you have a clue what they are doing? And you are saying what other people do affects the quality of our own lines, and you have no clue if it will happen and by how much?

Me: I am starting to question your competence. How about we move to Alaska and set up shop there, and bit the bullet with the huge risks and costs of transporting materials, blueprints and cars to and from there. Surely then if we committ to such a massive, longterm venture, we can get a handle on our costs.
You: Sorry, we can't guarantee anything then either. We might be good for a couple weeks or months and then we don't know if we will be profitable or not again.

Me: Get out of my office, I am calling security.


But if Chrysler moves into town, you WILL have to compete with them for labor, materials, maintenance, supplies... and that means increased costs.

The difference here is that moving your base of operations to Alaska is a piece of cake compared to moving an entire GM assembly line. Your "Huge risk and cost of transporting materials" is pretty low unless you're really really bad at internet spaceships.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#288 - 2014-04-30 15:49:16 UTC
OK, a few numbers.
The highest workforce cost CCP has mentioned is 15% of the value of what you are producing.
The highest team cost is 18% of the workforce cost, or 2.7% of the value of what you are producing.

As long as that team reduces your material requirement by at least 3%, you win. As the highest cost team should have a 5% bonus, you should win, every time.

The same calculation could be done with a team that costs 2% and provides a 1% bonus, but you will get the same result: You win.

Yes, there are cases where you do not win (hiring a team that is expensive, but happens to have a poor bonus for the job you happen to be doing, and you are in an expensive solar system). But that will be rare. In the majority of cases the answer is the same: A team will be better then no team.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#289 - 2014-04-30 15:50:14 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Querns wrote:
A question: do Broad and Narrow team bonuses stack?

For example (may not reflect reality): I hire a team with a broad specialization of 5% in Frigates and a narrow specialty of 10% in Covert Ops. Do any subsequent Covert Ops frigates I build have a 15% bonus?

Is it even possible for this sort of overlap to happen when teams are being created by the server?


The bonuses stack. The way the team creation works, you will either only have the broad bonus, or both the broad and narrow bonus. This is because a team member cannot have a narrow specialty unless there is another team member providing the broad specialty. So for instance in your example, you could never have a team with a member with the Covert Ops specialty, but not a team member with the Small Class specialty (which is the broad specialty above Covert Ops).

I didn't want to go into too many details on team creation and specialties in the dev blog, rather I'm aiming to do a separate dev blog on this in a week or two, which also lists all the specialties.

Oh, cool -- I didn't think that it would be de riguer that a narrow would require a broad. That's a pretty elegant solution for what I thought was gonna be the remote possibility of "super teams" in one particular field.

And, yeah, I wasn't trying to ask for all of the specialties. I just made up an example off the cuff to illustrate my point with little regard to what the actual specialties might have been.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#290 - 2014-04-30 15:50:18 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
So will we get an API endpoint to query a systems teams and their characterstics?
The same is needed for the new cost scaling.


API support is on our to-do list. Can't say for sure when it will be ready.



Sooner the better.

The earlier you can give us all the numbers for the new system, the sooner we can play with them. Smile

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#291 - 2014-04-30 15:51:51 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

Also the popularity of my system having a team? There's a lot of those. 4000 teams. I think my system will not be the only one with one, or more.


4000 teams. What's the point if there are so many? It doesn't make any sense at all. And for a 7.5% bonus? Whether that's worth it or not depends on how much the team costs doesn't it. You have no idea what the bids will be. It seems to me that people will bid up to but no further than whatever their break-even on the team is.

Totally crazy.



7.5% cost savings on an entire month's production, with as many characters as I can shove into it


You are a fool, a goddamned fool, if you cannot see how amazing that would be.


don't forget to add in the 5% savings from a nullsec outpost

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#292 - 2014-04-30 15:53:38 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:

Also the cost of teams is applaid to normall team cost? So for example if it costs 1 000 000 for normal workers on a specific job than it would be 1 800 000 for +18% cost team?

+18% means it would be 1,180,000 not 1,800,000

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#293 - 2014-04-30 15:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Weaselior wrote:

that's why we're going to make so much money: because we're not risk-averse *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


It's like physics: If you don't know what your measurement error is, you haven't made a measurement. If you don't know what risk you're taking, you haven't taken a risk, you've just played roulette.


*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#294 - 2014-04-30 15:54:30 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

You: (Chief Accoutant): We dunno, labour costs are all over the place, because we will be bidding with Toyota in Japan for some really crazy workers to improve production, on an ongoing basis, and we don't even know if we will get them.
Me: That is stupid, don't we have fixed contracts with these perople? But moving on. How does our production facility look like?
You: Well, we are not sure what our costs will be there too. If Chysler moves into town, and they could any moment without notification, our costs could go up an unknown amount, especially if Ford does too.
Me: Wait, what is this about Ford and Chrysler. Don't you have a clue what they are doing? And you are saying what other people do affects the quality of our own lines, and you have no clue if it will happen and by how much?


Erm doesn't the real-world work somewhat like that? Tech companies setup in silicon valley because there's a readily available labour market there - even though the costs can be higher.

No manufacturing company in the world will be able to tell you exactly what their labour costs will be at the end of the year - there are too many variables that can change things. What you do is budget what you expect these things to be, and ensure that you're making enough profits to cover the variabilities in your costs.

Again, a large problem in Eve currently is that because everything can be perfectly calculated in advance, everybody is willing to work on tiny profit margins. I'm looking forward to being able to take on these new risks, and make more profits at the end of the day.
Nyjil Lizaru
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2014-04-30 15:57:02 UTC
I do small-scale building of tech 2 modules, I'm a dabbler I admit. From what I see in these changes, I might (or might not) move all my stuff a time or two, then get tired of relocating and just accept smaller profits.
I can see the full-time builders getting into this, moving frequently, chasing good margins and having fun (for certain values of 'fun'). But my earlier feelings that these changes were going to help small-timers have completely evaporated.

Overall reaction: "Meh, more **** to learn. I don't envy the newer players at all."

Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#296 - 2014-04-30 15:57:27 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:

Also the cost of teams is applaid to normall team cost? So for example if it costs 1 000 000 for normal workers on a specific job than it would be 1 800 000 for +18% cost team?

+18% means it would be 1,180,000 not 1,800,000


A typo :) fixed my earlier post

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#297 - 2014-04-30 15:57:53 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Are there any plans to allow DUST players to invade eve stations and kill the manufacturing teams?


If there are, I'm not aware of them. Though we did discuss housing the teams in a structure in space that can be shot at.



Between Inferno and this, these guys can't catch a break. :D

I love the concept though at first glance it seems the guys (alliances) with the biggest wallets will get the better teams and corner the market...specially if you are the only one having access to those teams. I'm thinking in deep null sec alliances, who btw, are also getting a big buff to industry from the other changes introduced this summer. We'll have to see how it plays out but the little guy in high sec seems to be screwed once more.

Please, please, please include:

- Team ownership
- Geographical differences in team specialties.

Specially team ownership, it will add some needed variety to PI and hopefully another profession to EVE!!
Yuki Kasumi
Some names are just stupid
#298 - 2014-04-30 15:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuki Kasumi
There seems to be some confusion in regards to the use of teams. Can more than one industry job use the same team at the same time? I.e two characters both using the same team to manufacture one job each.

EDIT: This seems to have been answered already, and it is possible for more than one job to use the same team at the same time
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#299 - 2014-04-30 15:58:39 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:

7.5% cost savings on an entire month's production, with as many characters as I can shove into it

You are a fool, a goddamned fool, if you cannot see how amazing that would be.


So with your huge balls winning on the labour auctions all the time your system is going to be very popular for building isn't it. So subtract from your 7.5% bonus the increased cost of production for your slots, the increased cost of your office (if you need one) and the costs of actually winning the auction. Now tell me what your actual costs are.

You can't can you. You know it's > 0 and you pray it's less than the 7.5% bonus you're getting from having the team. Otherwise you have no idea.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2014-04-30 15:59:55 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

LOL...like you needed any of these changes to outcompete.

You have been gifted the perfect platform , where you will have the greatest cost certainty of any group in the game, because you can strictly control access to all industry facilities in any station under your control. You will also be able to command the services of any team you want, or simply withhold the services from someone else, because of your infinite supply of ISK.
The only variable costs you will encounter will be raw material costs and the team costs. All other slot costs you will very quickly be able to lock down.

High sec, naturally, won't have that option.
And low sec, well, industry is finished there. I can just see it now, some low sec indy group bidding for a team, broadcasting the system they are operating in, and what they are building or researching.




WTB enough isk to hire all 4000 teams in the game, forever.



Of course the goons could do it - for a month.


I could probably do it for a month too, if I cared enough to blow my fortune on annoying someone as neurotic as you.


Sadly I do not have any free character slots to add goon-sounding characters to, so I am unable to make you froth at the mouth (any more than you usually do).


It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

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