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Dev Blog: Team Up: Industry Work Teams

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CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#261 - 2014-04-30 15:29:01 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Can you confirm either way if 'escrow' for losing bids is lost or fractionally taxed in any form?


You get 100% of the amount back right now.
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#262 - 2014-04-30 15:29:37 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

1. Cost certainty


No, I want uncertainies in the system, so that I can make more money by being smarter than everybody else.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at)


No, I want the option of taking on more risk, and being able to make even more ISK as a result of that.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)


Yes, I want to spend less time clicking buttons and more time finding opportunities. And that's by doing actual effort and seeing a return - not by clicking some buttons in an app/spreadsheet and being told where the profits are.

Well one out of 3 ain't bad.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#263 - 2014-04-30 15:29:58 UTC
A question: do Broad and Narrow team bonuses stack?

For example (may not reflect reality): I hire a team with a broad specialization of 5% in Frigates and a narrow specialty of 10% in Covert Ops. Do any subsequent Covert Ops frigates I build have a 15% bonus?

Is it even possible for this sort of overlap to happen when teams are being created by the server?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Cultural Enrichment
Jenkem Puffing Association
#264 - 2014-04-30 15:30:15 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
[things]

You dont really understand the whole "entrepreneur" concept, do you?
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#265 - 2014-04-30 15:30:59 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

Also the popularity of my system having a team? There's a lot of those. 4000 teams. I think my system will not be the only one with one, or more.


4000 teams. What's the point if there are so many? It doesn't make any sense at all. And for a 7.5% bonus? Whether that's worth it or not depends on how much the team costs doesn't it. You have no idea what the bids will be. It seems to me that people will bid up to but no further than whatever their break-even on the team is.

Totally crazy.



7.5% cost savings on an entire month's production, with as many characters as I can shove into it


You are a fool, a goddamned fool, if you cannot see how amazing that would be.
adriaans
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
#266 - 2014-04-30 15:31:02 UTC
Just to clarify, the ME bonuses from Teams are they on top of max researched blueprints? (I.e. Better than perfect end result?)

----True oldschool solo pvp'er---- My latest vid: Insanity IV
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#267 - 2014-04-30 15:32:49 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Soniclover, I would ask if it's possible to retract bids on teams. If it so possible, then you will hand us an important tool to wage economic warfare.

And isn't that the point of the market? PVP? Twisted


PvP has risk. If you can retract your bid, there's no risk to you, therefore no PvP. Just trolling.




That depends entirely on how the sniper rules work, although I would be also be okay with not being able to retract bids. I just think it'd add an element of chaos and uncertainty to the process - always a plus!
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#268 - 2014-04-30 15:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Seith Kali
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
Can you confirm either way if 'escrow' for losing bids is lost or fractionally taxed in any form?


You get 100% of the amount back right now.


Are you happy with that? It would be nice if I want to tactically mess with other's strategies though bidding for teams there would be some kind of cost.

If N3 rolled out a raven doctrine, for example. We would have an inherent interest in preventing them from getting an appropriate team for a reasonable rate. It seems to me the ability to drive up team auctions has a lot of advantages with little trade off.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Aineko Macx
#269 - 2014-04-30 15:34:02 UTC
So will we get an API endpoint to query a systems teams and their characterstics?
The same is needed for the new cost scaling.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#270 - 2014-04-30 15:34:46 UTC
Querns wrote:
A question: do Broad and Narrow team bonuses stack?

For example (may not reflect reality): I hire a team with a broad specialization of 5% in Frigates and a narrow specialty of 10% in Covert Ops. Do any subsequent Covert Ops frigates I build have a 15% bonus?

Is it even possible for this sort of overlap to happen when teams are being created by the server?


This was answered by a dev on page 5 of this thread.
Short answer : yes it stacks
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#271 - 2014-04-30 15:35:04 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
What are the sort of broad/narrow specialties when it comes to non-ships (or are ships the only thing that teams boost)? How narrow or broad are they (e.g. is narrow like "small lasers", "lasers" or "mega beam laser IIs only" and is broad like "mods", "armor mods" or "active armor taking mods")?


The teams cover everything possible to manufacture, the Ship type was just used as an example. To give you a bit better idea for the specialties, there are 135 of them total (40 broad, 95 narrow). An example is Armor, a broad specialty. It has three narrow specialties under it - Armor Active Modules, Armor Passive Expanders and Armor Passive Resistance.

(I haven't read the whole comment thread yet, so if this is already covered, please ignore.)

Please provide the complete list.

Also, I may simply be dense, but I don't really see how teams will be applicable to non-manufacturing activities (ME research, TE research, copying, invention, and reverse engineering). Did I miss something?

MDD
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#272 - 2014-04-30 15:35:36 UTC
Highest bidder can name the team?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#273 - 2014-04-30 15:36:26 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
What is the cost of hiring a team compared to basic cost of running tbe job? How this scales with levels of team specialization? I cant find it in the blog.


Also, lets say the team reduces mineral cost for item by 5% and that item requires 5 units trit to build. Im runing a single run and have no benefit as 5*.95 is still 5, but if i run 4 runs of this item in the single job will it decrease the mineral cost from 20 to 19 (5*4*.95) or will it treat separate items requirment as base for calculation - round(5*.95)*4=20

The same question goes to all bonuses to manufacturing from pos modules and others bonuses to industry introduced in past industry blogs


Any chance for reply?


Team cost ranges between +2% to +18% modification on the workforce cost. So the exact ISK amount depends on the activity in the system (which affects the workforce cost). The team cost is based on the overall efficiency of the team (i.e. the efficiency levels of the team members).

The team mineral bonus is added to existing bonuses, like from BP research, so it will be a cumulative thing. As with all % reductions, the exact benefits will vary depending on BoM and number of runs, as you point out.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#274 - 2014-04-30 15:36:48 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Highest bidder can name the team?

Time To Penis on that idea is quite short.
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#275 - 2014-04-30 15:37:13 UTC
So for RP types there may be some ethical considerations in using the teams since the boosters drive them mad or catatonic. Ethical considerations unless you're Caldari that is. Anything for an edge with those people. :-)
mkint
#276 - 2014-04-30 15:38:14 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:

How are the ME/TE bonuses planned to stack at this point? 10% ME + 7.5% ME (team) + 2% ME (PoS) = 19.5% material savings from the new base?


Whatever it is it will be precisely cancelled by the slot cost increase from the popularity of your system having a team. Not that you can predict what that'll be of course. No. It'll be completely unpredictable, which is precisely the opposite of what anyone running a business wants.


Bingo.

Let's pretend you are in a planning meeting at GM for the 2016 production lines.

Me (CFO): OK, what do you expect our labour costs on the new Zoomer Hybrid will be.
You: (Chief Accoutant): We dunno, labour costs are all over the place, because we will be bidding with Toyota in Japan for some really crazy workers to improve production, on an ongoing basis, and we don't even know if we will get them.
Me: That is stupid, don't we have fixed contracts with these perople? But moving on. How does our production facility look like?
You: Well, we are not sure what our costs will be there too. If Chysler moves into town, and they could any moment without notification, our costs could go up an unknown amount, especially if Ford does too.
Me: Wait, what is this about Ford and Chrysler. Don't you have a clue what they are doing? And you are saying what other people do affects the quality of our own lines, and you have no clue if it will happen and by how much?

Me: I am starting to question your competence. How about we move to Alaska and set up shop there, and bit the bullet with the huge risks and costs of transporting materials, blueprints and cars to and from there. Surely then if we committ to such a massive, longterm venture, we can get a handle on our costs.
You: Sorry, we can't guarantee anything then either. We might be good for a couple weeks or months and then we don't know if we will be profitable or not again.

Me: Get out of my office, I am calling security.

Your analogy doesn't answer the question asked, but it does bring up an interesting point...

there's a reason all cars in the US are made in detroit. (except saturns, but does anybody really care about saturn? do they even still exist?) They are made in detroit because it's more cost effective to build a factory where there are competent workers, easy access to infrastructure, and easy access to raw materials than it is to try to bring all those to your random podunk backwater factory. Likewise, consider the volatile nature of the stereotypical mining town.

But the real question is if making in-game manufacturing reflect the concerns of RL manufacturing would make things more or less fun and interesting.

Oh, and to the original question: outcome is based on when you click the "OK" button to build. Whatever that window says will happen is what will happen.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#277 - 2014-04-30 15:38:20 UTC
Oh look, more complexity for the sake of adding more complexity.
Tam Althor
Commonwealth Industries
#278 - 2014-04-30 15:39:20 UTC
Sorry, not really seeing anything to get excited about here. Really would not miss it if this entire feature was dropped to spend resources filling in all the holes left from the previous two dev blogs.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#279 - 2014-04-30 15:41:18 UTC
Querns wrote:
A question: do Broad and Narrow team bonuses stack?

For example (may not reflect reality): I hire a team with a broad specialization of 5% in Frigates and a narrow specialty of 10% in Covert Ops. Do any subsequent Covert Ops frigates I build have a 15% bonus?

Is it even possible for this sort of overlap to happen when teams are being created by the server?


The bonuses stack. The way the team creation works, you will either only have the broad bonus, or both the broad and narrow bonus. This is because a team member cannot have a narrow specialty unless there is another team member providing the broad specialty. So for instance in your example, you could never have a team with a member with the Covert Ops specialty, but not a team member with the Small Class specialty (which is the broad specialty above Covert Ops).

I didn't want to go into too many details on team creation and specialties in the dev blog, rather I'm aiming to do a separate dev blog on this in a week or two, which also lists all the specialties.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#280 - 2014-04-30 15:43:30 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
Can you confirm either way if 'escrow' for losing bids is lost or fractionally taxed in any form?


You get 100% of the amount back right now.


Are you happy with that? It would be nice if I want to tactically mess with other's strategies though bidding for teams there would be some kind of cost.

If N3 rolled out a raven doctrine, for example. We would have an inherent interest in preventing them from getting an appropriate team for a reasonable rate. It seems to me the ability to drive up team auctions has a lot of advantages with little trade off.


We implemented the basic bid system in a very rudimentary form as first iteration, to make sure it was functional. We have several follow-up iterations on it to make it more robust and interesting, not sure if and when we'll get to them. This would then be one of the things we'd look into.