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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Treyan Argund
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#581 - 2014-04-30 13:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Treyan Argund
I'm only on page 20, but I've been reading several posts saying "But my ME6 BP is already perfect, why do I have to research 4 more levels post patch to get it perfect again?" and the like. The amount of stupid in these posts whining about ME is staggering and it makes me angry. I have not seen a post yet that quashes these misconceptions. This is that post. It is not nice.

Here's the Idiot's Guide to how ME Will (not) Change on Patch Day:

Take a BP, any BP. Let's say it has perfect ME at ME 7. After the patch, your ME will have changed to ME10 (10% reduction in waste). No effective change in how much waste you have, and you even get a bigger number!

Take that same BP, and some silly person has researched it to something silly like ME200. Silly person thinks that because his number went from ME200 to ME10 he should get something back or that it is somehow worse. No. Wrong. You researched poorly and far past the perfection breakpoint. The cap of ME10 is to prevent people like you from wasting research, although I would love to see Greyscale remove the cap so that you guys can go chasing the Bigger Better Number again while the rest of us who actually know what the hell we're doing point and laugh.

Now, Let's take a BP that's perfect at ME20 pre-patch. If you have ME20 (or greater, for you "bigger is better" over-researching silly persons), your BP will have ME10 after the patch. Fear not though! While the smarter beings in this thread have already figured this out, just because your ME number got smaller does not mean you have more waste. HOWEVER (silly persons, read carefully), if you have this BP, and it's only ME4 (remember, the perfect ME for this BP is 20 pre-patch), and you research it to ME10, you're not getting any sort of shortcut to perfect ME because of the patch. Whatever wastage ME10 gets you pre-patch (let's say it gives you 7% wastage) is going to directly translate to what ME you get post-patch (pre-patch wastage of 7% = post-patch ME7)

TL;DR the current ME on your blueprints has absolutely nothing to do with what the ME will be after the patch. Go back and read that sentence a few more times until it has replaced whatever other silly notion you had. Wastage pre-patch=Wastage post-patch. The ME number prepatch is irrelevant. CCP has even kindly offered generous rounding so that if you have, say, 5.4% wastage pre-patch, they'll give you 6% post-patch due to the less granular 10-step ME progression.

Nobody who has one of these over-researched BPs should get any of their wasted research points back. You screwed yourself over, deal with it. Be glad that after this patch you can't do this stupid thing again. I am sad that you will inevitably find some other way to screw it up.

I hope I've repeated myself enough to make it stick and cut down on the amount of chaff-postage in this thread, simply for the benefit of the devs/not-idiots so they don't have to read so much drivel and whining.

Back to your regularly scheduled devblog thread.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#582 - 2014-04-30 13:05:05 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
In the industry update, will we be able to select multiple BPC to run several invention jobs at once or will we still have to run each job individually?

If it's going to stay the same as it is now, you are doing it wrong CCP. There is no gameplay benefit to the current system and all it does is induce tedium and repetitive strain injury on the player base.


bump


This is a discussion that's better served being in the UI blog thread rather than the research blog thread :)
Corwyn Rand
Legion of the Southern Cross
#583 - 2014-04-30 14:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Corwyn Rand
Balancing Tech II BPO vs Invention of Tech II BPC

I have a concept for removing the advantage of owning a Tech II BPO without removing Tech II BPO's from the game Attention

I have never done any invention in my life I have no idea of the variable costs of inventing but just seeing all the complaints about how owners of Tech II BPO's have the advantage I thought the following might balance them out:


1. Make copy time of a Tech II BPO = to Invention time of a Tech II BPC

2. Make cost of copying Tech II BPO = to cost of Inventing a Tech II BPC (I know variable costs, how do you work this Question )

3. Make Tech II BPO's Copy Only (No longer usable for manufacturing, only used to create copy's)


p.s. I have no idea how complex this would be to code but hopefully it's something for the Devs to consider
PDP11
ExoGen Foundation
New Miner's Union
#584 - 2014-04-30 15:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: PDP11
Treyan Argund wrote:

Here's the Idiot's Guide to how ME Will (not) Change on Patch Day: ......


Please cover PE. Guess perfect is when time improvement is less than one second.
PDP11
ExoGen Foundation
New Miner's Union
#585 - 2014-04-30 15:20:55 UTC
Corwyn Rand wrote:
Balancing Tech II BPO vs Invention of Tech II BPC

I have a concept for removing the advantage of owning a Tech II BPO without removing Tech II BPO's from the game Attention

I have never done any invention in my life I have no idea of the variable costs of inventing but just seeing all the complaints about how owners of Tech II BPO's have the advantage I thought the following might balance them out:


1. Make copy time of a Tech II BPO = to Invention time of a Tech II BPC

2. Make cost of copying Tech II BPO = to cost of Inventing a Tech II BPC (I know variable costs, how do you work this Question )

3. Make Tech II BPO's Copy Only (No longer usable for manufacturing, only used to create copy's)


p.s. I have no idea how complex this would be to code but hopefully it's something for the Devs to consider


Wonder if you could turn all T2 BPOs into BPCs with 99,999 runs or some other number less than infinity.
HairyButter
Fairy Fleet
#586 - 2014-04-30 15:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: HairyButter
Any change that does not SIGNIFICANTLY lessen the impact of t2 bpo's is fail. It is the one major thing that screws up the markets, especially for inventors.

http://k162space.com/2012/07/17/percentage-of-items-from-invention-vs-tech-2-bpo/ <- this blew my mind.
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#587 - 2014-04-30 17:06:48 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
Treyan Argund wrote:

Nobody who has one of these over-researched BPs should get any of their wasted research points back.


Treyan,

You're (intentionally?) telling less than half the story.

1) Prior to the transition, heavily researched BPs *aren’t* over-researched, they’re just heavily researched. One can argue about the wisdom of heavily researching BPs but what puzzles me (and others) is why CCP is promoting a transition that turns heavily researched BPs into over-researched BPs. While it’s pleasing to see the heavy researchers get a kick in the nuts, I prefer we players do the nut kicking rather than watch CCP do it. Why you want CCP doing your nut kicking for you Treyan?

2) Modest researchers are about to receive a huge *unearned* benefit when their BPs get upgraded to optimal in the transition. As an owner of multiple modestly researched BPs, I stand to gain in this transition but I am puzzled why CCP is handing me (and others) unearned benefits. Why you want CCP handing out unearned benefits Treyan?

Edit to clarify this point. Quoting Treyan, "CCP has even kindly offered generous rounding so that if you have, say, 5.4% wastage pre-patch, they'll give you 6% post-patch due to the less granular 10-step ME progression." It's not the .6% bonus that disturbs me, it's the time cost of that .6% bonus. (Note - it's actually .4% improvment in your example since wastage goes down with improvement. Your old 5.4% wastage blueprint drops to 5% in the new system.) Pre patch, the time cost of improvement would get pretty substantial (especially if the BP in question was approaching optimal). Post patch similar time cost improvements will be even more substantial (astoundingly so on some BPs). I dislike seeing expensive benefits doled out when nobody involved expended a whit of time earning them.


3) Mostly, though I’m baffled CCP isn’t pursuing a transition that minimizes CCP delivered nut kickings and CCP delivered unearned benefits. Several such transition tweaks vastly better than reimbursements have already been suggested but, so far at least, not much comment from Greyscale on the possibilities. Greyscale's silence is doubly puzzling given the fuss he made about transitioning in the Dev Blog: "We're very aware that some of you will feel that you've lost your previous advantages gained by researching blueprints for a really long time, and this is one of the areas we're preparing to focus the most on in terms of receiving feedback and making adjustments or additions to smooth the transition." Hopefully his silence is due to attention being directed elsewhere at the moment rather that indifference to the discussion.
Phoenix Czech
AZ Solutions CZ
CZECH Alliance
#588 - 2014-04-30 19:10:57 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Myxx wrote:
I and others feel like CCP is being intentionally vague. This is frustrating. You give details of low end items, but don't flesh out your maths for higher end bpos (capitals and such).


You're asking about research times? The math is super simple, divide current ME research time by 6000 to get the rank, multiply Rank 1 times (in the blog) by this number to get the times for that blueprint.

Nanaki wrote:
so whats the ranks on orcas freighters dreads carriers and supers? would be good to know


Orca: Rank 820
Freighters: Rank 854
Dreads: Rank 854
Carriers: Rank 854
Supercarriers: Rank 1707
Titans: Rank 3414

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Mr. CCP GreyScale


I've been working on a Capital Component BPO since last year.. a propulsion engine its at a current level of ME 530. what level and rank would this be after the changes. I feel like you've just gimp'ed my chances of making isk from copies.. are is this good enough?

would this be perfect?


It will be at ME 10% after the change, which is perfect, yes. Capital Propulsion Engine is Rank 11.


I thing these changes to BPO research is a good idea. To use the same system as skillig is logical. First levels of making things better are easy and with every step the things became much more complicated. I agree with that.

But I think the times of research to capital ships are a little bit out of range. Are you serious that for example complete research from lvl 0 to lvl 10 of frighter blueprint should take 7 years in base time ( 3,5 year from lvl 9 to lvl 10)? Are you sure of it. I understand that there will be modifications based on skilles and structure bonuses and teams, but it is still unreal times. Do you thing that somebody will put BPO in reseach from lvl 9 to lvl 10 in his high-sec POS for years ?

I realy hope, that ranks of capital ships blueprints you wrote here are mistakes and real ranks will be in real numbers. Now for example research of one ME lvl of frighter blueprint takes 33 days on High-sec POS with full skilled character, so get the BPO to lvl 10 takes something about 11 months.

So are you realy sure, that capital ships BPO research will be balanced after the change?




Pirate's Bunny
Restyled.
#589 - 2014-04-30 19:12:46 UTC
Treyan Argund wrote:


Nobody who has one of these over-researched BPs should get any of their wasted research points back. You screwed yourself over, deal with it. Be glad that after this patch you can't do this stupid thing again. I am sad that you will inevitably find some other way to screw it up.


You have no idea what you're talking about and calling other people idiots is not an acceptable behaviour and isn't really helpful.

Over researched bpo like we have come simply from the fact that there are enough people who want to buy bpc and don't understand the underlying mechanics of ME/PE. So if you inject perfect bpc on jita market for sale, you won't sell any of those since people will buy the ones with higher numbers. It's just psychology, oh look higher number sounds better!
If you want to stay in market you have to research your bpo then higher.

And another point:
If the system lets you over research BPO, why was it even possible. There should have been already a limit then. If you take something away that you allowed before you always get an uproar. We own all BS/BC and Cruiser bpo researched to high levels. If this idea will be put into mold the wasted time we have on our bpo will sum up to 11years.

So how you compensate that. Next problem is that the time spent on that is by different corp members, so you can only really stick to the existing bpo that are already there if you would give out SP or other stuff to individuals it wouldn't be fair.

The idea of giving out a time bonus to people for those bpo can't work either, who would you give it then if those bpo were researched by more than just one person?

I have no idea how you could do it, maybe make high researched bpo into tech2 or faction counterparts :P

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#590 - 2014-04-30 19:45:17 UTC
Pirate's Bunny wrote:
Over researched bpo like we have come simply from the fact that there are enough people who want to buy bpc and don't understand the underlying mechanics of ME/PE.


You want CCP to compensate you because you can no longer run the same scam under the new system? (nevermind that you still can with any blueprint that has a perfect state at less than 10%, since the new system still won't mark that blueprint "perfect"/"finished" until ME10).
Pirate's Bunny
Restyled.
#591 - 2014-04-30 20:00:56 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Pirate's Bunny wrote:
Over researched bpo like we have come simply from the fact that there are enough people who want to buy bpc and don't understand the underlying mechanics of ME/PE.


You want CCP to compensate you because you can no longer run the same scam under the new system? (nevermind that you still can with any blueprint that has a perfect state at less than 10%, since the new system still won't mark that blueprint "perfect"/"finished" until ME10).


Well if you don't know what a scam or confidence trick is, please visit wikipedia for explanation.

Those are just market rules. People don't even pay more for a high researched than for a perfect one. And the discussion is not about if selling high researched bpc is a scam but how to compensate long research on any bpo.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#592 - 2014-04-30 20:04:49 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
I'm very concerned over the fact that we're about to see a x7 research time increase for certain items.

I did the numbers (baseline unskilled) for some of them and based on the rank 60 battleship BPO (e.g. Dominix) we're going from

~ 42 days for ME 10, to:
~306 days for ME 10%

That seems very harsh. I don't mind an increase, but a factor of 7 seems unwarranted.

I would ask that you revise your numbers so that the new times aren't quite so brutal. Perhaps lower ranks or a shorter baseline. 5d for perfect ME for ammo BPOs also seems kind of high. So 10 days total for perfect ME and TE under the new system for something where you might have dozens and dozens of ammo BPOs for all the different types. Expand that to modules and ships and industrialists won't have enough variety to address market fluctuations in demand and supply.


Its not just certain items, its everything.

Quintessen wrote:

Tennoku wrote:
Apologies if this is in the thread already, or obvious from the blog. The blog gives an example of research time for a rank 1 bpo. Level 10 time is 256000 seconds. Is this the time to go from level 9 to 10, or level 0 to 10?


0 to 10.


I'm a bit confused as to if this is correct or not, everything prior to this has been working as if its 9 to 10.


Since it's been confirmed that it's 0..10, that means it's only a 4.3x time increase overall instead of a 7x increase. Still that's pretty insane. I'd prefer something under 2x.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#593 - 2014-04-30 20:06:43 UTC
Will we be able to skill up blueprints more than once per job? E.g. going from ME 0% to ME 10% for an ammo blueprint by sticking it in for 3d straight?
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#594 - 2014-04-30 20:08:00 UTC
Pirate's Bunny wrote:


Over researched bpo like we have . . .


Pirate's Bunny,

Don't imbibe the "over-researched" description. As your example points out, your BPOs aren't over-researched. Rather, they are researched beyond optimal for very good reason. (And deliciously slightly scammy reason at that!) Your BPOs become over-researched only when the transition knocks them down to optimal.

The question to ask is why is CCP about to declare what counts as over-researched and then adjust BPOs to match their declaration.

Shinya Shazih
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#595 - 2014-04-30 20:23:06 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
In the industry update, will we be able to select multiple BPC to run several invention jobs at once or will we still have to run each job individually?

If it's going to stay the same as it is now, you are doing it wrong CCP. There is no gameplay benefit to the current system and all it does is induce tedium and repetitive strain injury on the player base.


bump
Pirate's Bunny
Restyled.
#596 - 2014-04-30 20:31:42 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Pirate's Bunny wrote:
Over researched bpo like we have come simply from the fact that there are enough people who want to buy bpc and don't understand the underlying mechanics of ME/PE.


You want CCP to compensate you because you can no longer run the same scam under the new system? (nevermind that you still can with any blueprint that has a perfect state at less than 10%, since the new system still won't mark that blueprint "perfect"/"finished" until ME10).


DireNecessity wrote:

Don't imbibe the "over-researched" description. As your example points out, your BPOs aren't over-researched. Rather, they are researched beyond optimal for very good reason. (And deliciously slightly scammy reason at that!)


Yes they are at the moment not over-researched. And for saying it's a scam, let's look at a Hyperion BPC:

Hyperion Blueprint example:
Cost to build at ME 50 : 208,744,602.31 ISK
Cost to build at ME 100 : 208,542,694.20 ISK (-201,908.11)
Cost to build at ME 150 : 208,474,865.96 ISK (-67,828.24)
Cost to build at ME 200 : 208,439,375.13 ISK (-35,490.83)
Cost to build at ME 300 : 208,405,310.07 ISK (-34,065,06)
Cost to build at ME 500 : 208,378,112.94 ISK (-27,197.13)

You could say that ME100 is a high value for ME on a blueprint, but ME150 would still drop the cost with 67,828.24 ISK, this is a rather high amount if you're doing competitive BPC selling.

Even going from ME200 to ME500, which would be quite a lot of time and for most players it won't be worth it, but it still saves you another 61,262.19 ISK, a total of 96,753.02 ISK vs ME150.

But the point is that to be competitive and offer a high quality BPC for a low price, you need to have a high researched BPO/BPC.
Why would anyone buy your ME100 BPC if there's someone else who's selling one at ME150 for the same price or a few ISK more? No one will buy your ME100 BPC.

We're forced to research more, nearly perfect the BPC. Players who calculate the profits gained from buying a highly researched BPC will benefit.

When the new system comes into play the ME research will be capped at a certain level, which will bring all the highly researched BPC's to the same level. The market will be filled with identical BPC's and everyone will start to underprice eachother for 1 isk. It will be terrible to try and sell BPC's because everyone has the same values.
There is no longer any point in investing time into perfecting a BPO, we are willing to spent the time and produce high quality BPC's which players will appreciate because it drops their cost even more.
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#597 - 2014-04-30 20:37:40 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
GeeBee wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
I'm very concerned over the fact that we're about to see a x7 research time increase for certain items.

I did the numbers (baseline unskilled) for some of them and based on the rank 60 battleship BPO (e.g. Dominix) we're going from

~ 42 days for ME 10, to:
~306 days for ME 10%

That seems very harsh. I don't mind an increase, but a factor of 7 seems unwarranted.

I would ask that you revise your numbers so that the new times aren't quite so brutal. Perhaps lower ranks or a shorter baseline. 5d for perfect ME for ammo BPOs also seems kind of high. So 10 days total for perfect ME and TE under the new system for something where you might have dozens and dozens of ammo BPOs for all the different types. Expand that to modules and ships and industrialists won't have enough variety to address market fluctuations in demand and supply.


Its not just certain items, its everything.

Quintessen wrote:

Tennoku wrote:
Apologies if this is in the thread already, or obvious from the blog. The blog gives an example of research time for a rank 1 bpo. Level 10 time is 256000 seconds. Is this the time to go from level 9 to 10, or level 0 to 10?


0 to 10.


I'm a bit confused as to if this is correct or not, everything prior to this has been working as if its 9 to 10.


Since it's been confirmed that it's 0..10, that means it's only a 4.3x time increase overall instead of a 7x increase. Still that's pretty insane. I'd prefer something under 2x.


Where is this confirmation??

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#598 - 2014-04-30 21:04:07 UTC
Increasing the base cost of everything by 11% and then letting research save you time and materials: This is a very good change and will make things easier to understand.

I even like the idea that the game recognizes "perfect" blueprints and will prevent people from researching past the perfect level. It always annoyed me that I had to calculate the perfect level on my blueprints outside game.

However, I don't understand why you want to change how ME and PE work. It seems like change for change's sake.

Both the current and future systems had diminishing returns for research.

Currently, each ME level takes the same time to research, but you get less benefit for each successive level. In the future, you will get the same benefit for each level of research, but each successive level will take more time than the previous.

The benefit of the previous system is that you had the option to get another level of research if you were not building. You could say, "I'm going to take a month off building Obelisks. Hmm, should I throw my BPO into copy to get a BPC to sell, or should I put it in ME research and get one more ME level?"

In the future it is going to be, "Whew, luckily I had an ME5 Obelisk blueprint so the patch changed it to ME 9%. But I'm going to take a month off building them. Maybe I could get another ME level and make it perfect? Ah nevermind. The quote says that will take over 4 years. I guess I'll make copies."

Then there is going to be the poor guy who has an ME3 Obelisk blueprint today. When the patch hits, he will be given an ME 7% blueprint. If he wants to research his blueprint to match the first guy, it will take him 2 years, 21 weeks. Very, very, very few people will do that. So congratulations Player A. You now have practically a permanent advantage over everyone else.

So you say the difference between ME 7% and ME 9% is trivial? Is it? 2% of a 1.4 Billion isk ship is 28M isk per unit extra profit. Permanently (for all practical purposes.)

How do blueprint ME levels interact with ME increasing POS Assembly arrays and ME increasing teams and ME increasing whatever else gets added to the game? There will probably be blueprints where the 8% and 9% ones have the same build cost on paper, but when you factor in certain build teams, the 9% one is better?

This situation is similar to T2 BPOs in that they are going to make more special items which can (practically)never be made again, and confer their owners with a permanent competitive advantage over everyone who started the game too late to get one.

Was the old system really difficult to understand? Did it break when they set slots to be unlimited? Why bother with these blueprint conversions and research changes? Was anybody ever hurt when someone over-researched a blueprint?

For a rank 854 blueprint (freighters, dreads, carriers)
ME Level Total Time
1% 1 day, 54 minutes
2% 2 days, 11 hours
3% 5 days, 21 hours
4% 13 days, 23 hours
5% 33 days, 5 hours
6% 11 weeks, 2 days
7% 26 weeks, 5 days
8% 1 year, 11 weeks 5 days
9% 2 years, 47 weeks, 5 days
10% 6 years, 48 weeks, 4 days
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#599 - 2014-04-30 21:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
Pirate's Bunny wrote:


DireNecessity wrote:

Don't imbibe the "over-researched" description. As your example points out, your BPOs aren't over-researched. Rather, they are researched beyond optimal for very good reason. (And deliciously slightly scammy reason at that!)


Yes they are at the moment not over-researched. And for saying it's a scam, let's look at a Hyperion BPC:

Hyperion Blueprint example:
Cost to build at ME 50 : 208,744,602.31 ISK
Cost to build at ME 100 : 208,542,694.20 ISK (-201,908.11)
Cost to build at ME 150 : 208,474,865.96 ISK (-67,828.24)
Cost to build at ME 200 : 208,439,375.13 ISK (-35,490.83)
Cost to build at ME 300 : 208,405,310.07 ISK (-34,065,06)
Cost to build at ME 500 : 208,378,112.94 ISK (-27,197.13)

You could say that ME100 is a high value for ME on a blueprint, but ME150 would still drop the cost with 67,828.24 ISK, this is a rather high amount if you're doing competitive BPC selling.

Even going from ME200 to ME500, which would be quite a lot of time and for most players it won't be worth it, but it still saves you another 61,262.19 ISK, a total of 96,753.02 ISK vs ME150.

But the point is that to be competitive and offer a high quality BPC for a low price, you need to have a high researched BPO/BPC. Why would anyone buy your ME100 BPC if there's someone else who's selling one at ME150 for the same price or a few ISK more? No one will buy your ME100 BPC.

We're forced to research more, nearly perfect the BPC. Players who calculate the profits gained from buying a highly researched BPC will benefit.

When the new system comes into play the ME research will be capped at a certain level, which will bring all the highly researched BPC's to the same level. The market will be filled with identical BPC's and everyone will start to underprice eachother for 1 isk. It will be terrible to try and sell BPC's because everyone has the same values.

There is no longer any point in investing time into perfecting a BPO, we are willing to spent the time and produce high quality BPC's which players will appreciate because it drops their cost even more.


Your further explanation highlights two important points.

1) Even minor advantages can produce big results despite the extraordinary time cost which is why it's inappropriate to refer to such BPs as "over-researched". The transition currently proposed erases these advantages.

2) Though extraordinarly time cost expensive in your Hyperion example, I believe it's possible to research past optimal ME in the current system (I've never tried). In the BPC market the impressive (though practically irrelevent and thus slightly scammy) over optimal numbers make for stunning advertising. Accordingly, even these BPOs aren't currently "over-researched" but the proposed transition declares them over-researched and knocks them down to optimal.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#600 - 2014-04-30 21:11:08 UTC
With all the other ME bonuses we are getting through teams and pos bonus changes, 10% cap looks far more reasonable. Miners have to make something, or who would we gank. Right?

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.