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What is needed to become a good scout/scan buddy ?
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Joss Nolan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-04-30 13:37:34 UTC
Hi everyone,

I started playing with a group of RL friend and the most needed role for our group seems to be a scout, this fits me well as I will stick in little ship while they do the pewpew part (dangerous explo and group pvp). So basically, dealing with scanning to find the anomalies and signatures and also not being shot at too easily, right ?

About the ship : from what I saw in the ISIS thing (where all ships are displayed with roles etc), I should aim for improved frigat like the Covert ops. Is it right ? The bonus are okay for being sneaky and do the scan so I guess I am not so wrong.
It seems that any race will fit, are some races better than other for this ? I don't remember all the ship names :c

About the skills : from what I understood from my friend's explanations, I will need all the scanning skills (they gave me every scanning skillbooks), -insert race- frigat, the cloaking skillbook and then the common-to-all-ships skills to fly well and fit everything I need on my ship. Propulsion skills to go fast maybe ?
And of course some pvp thing like the "crowd-control" ship equiment, anti-warp thing if I am not mistaken but this would be for later as we will first do the moneymaking thing with exploration.

They explained me a lot of thing before I started playing, I am currently doing the Aurora tutorial because it gives free ship and teachs lot of thing but I am still a bit lost and they are studying for exams so I can't have learning classes with them for too long ^^

thank in advance for any help and sorry for bad english :x
Velicitia
XS Tech
#2 - 2014-04-30 13:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Yep, to scout, you'll probably want to use a covops (in case there's a gatecamp, you can usually get away). They all do the same thing (cloak and scan) so there's not really a "best" (yes, some have more PG/CPU or more base HP ... but if it's 20 minutes to train Caldari for you ... and three days to train anyone else ... start with Caldari).

Skills -- sounds like you're on the right path. Check the certificates (or whatever they call them these days) that the ship recommends. Note that "Scouting" and "Probing" are two different (but overlapping) skill sets.

Scouting (in general) means that you're a jump ahead of the rest of your gang, looking for targets, or trying to find a safe way home from where ever you find yourself.

Probing (in general) means using system or combat probes in order to pin down anomalies (wormholes, ghost sites, etc) or other players

Now, if you're in w-space (either day trips, or living there), both skills overlap -- you'll need to probe down the wromholes ("gates" between systems) AND then jump through ahead of your group so that you're not surprised by a welcoming party on the other end (note -- you'll jump through AFTER giving them the location of the wormhole, else they won't be able to get there)

Learn to play FIRST in the T1 variants (i.e. if you're going Caldari -- The CovOps is the Heron Buzzard. Fly the Griffin Heron for now so you can get a feel for scouting/probing/etc).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-04-30 14:08:11 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Learn to play FIRST in the T1 variants (i.e. if you're going Caldari -- The CovOps is the Heron. Fly the Griffin for now so you can get a feel for scouting/probing/etc).
The rest of your post is good advice, but you got the ship names wrong:

The Caldari CovOps is the Buzzard. The Caldari T1 scanning frigate is the Heron.
The Griffin is the T1 ECM frigate.
Durbon Groth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-04-30 14:18:56 UTC
Hey there and welcome to eve. Like the previous poster says, scouting and probing are 2 different but related skills. Thhe first big thing you'll need to learn is how to properly use the directional scan (or D-scan) tool to locate targets.
Say for instance you're in a tech1 frigate scouting for your fleet. Your place is generally one jump ahead of your fleet; you will enter system first. The first thing you do is D-scan. Opening the F11 side map helps to show the range your D-scan is covering and its angleof coverage. If you find possible targets then your job is to warp straight to them and hold them in place using a warp scrambler or disruptor until year friends can show to kill them. Some familirity with the game is useful here. If you see a ship on scan narrow it down. If you make sure you have POS on your overview you can ignore ships at these structures as you won't be able to attack these ships. If you see a ship on scan but it doesn't seem to be at an asteroid belt, station or other celestial object, check your solar system map, which will show up anomalies that people may be using to PVE. These can be warped to by anyone. Just remember to warp out quick if your target isn't there!
As for probing, this is usually done with a covert-ops ship, an expanded probe launcher and combat probes. This also takes practice. The basic idea if you drop combat probes on a wide area scan first and then after you find a target's signal you narrow your probes down until eventually you can warp to the target. Enemy scan probes can be detected on yor D-scan, so don't be surprised if an enemy sees your probes and decides to run. There are advanced tactics, mostly based around using the D-scan and probes together so that your probes are on scan for as little time as possible so there's less chance of spooking your prey.

Look up youtube tutorials on D-scanning, combat scanning and scouting, there's some great resources out there.
Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#5 - 2014-04-30 15:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Z
Scanning skills are one of the few things that you really need to get near max level to be good.

Money aside for a moment (because faction stuff is expensive), you need to be able to use:

* Expanded probe launcher II
* Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II (not absolutely required, but very useful)
* Cov Ops ship
* Cov Ops Cloak
* Scanning upgrade II modules (if you don't have all max skills, this is how you make up the difference)
* Be able to fit the covops with those modules, plus a microwarpdrive, without having to devote more than 2 slots to fitting modules/rigs (mods/rigs that boost CPU, Powergrid)
* 3% scanning implants

I've just gotten to the point where I can do everything I've listed except for the T2 versions of the mods/rigs. I can scan well enough, but the smaller (and thus more valuable) signatures are either very time consuming to find or I can't quite scan them down. If I wasn't flying in a hot combat zone, I would use the implants and a Sisters expanded probe launcher, which would probably give me the extra boost I need to get the smaller sigs faster.

Two days ago I scanned down an empty Daredevil! Ten minutes later an empty Vexor! Scanning can be fun all it's own.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-04-30 15:33:32 UTC
Gabriel Z wrote:
* Expanded probe launcher II
* Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II (not absolutely required, but very useful)
* Cov Ops ship
* Cov Ops Cloak
* Scanning upgrade II modules (if you don't have all max skills, this is how you make up the difference)
* Be able to fit the covops with those modules, plus a microwarpdrive, without having to devote more than 2 slots to fitting modules/rigs (mods/rigs that boost CPU, Powergrid)


This is very silly advice. All of these mods are useful...but necessary? No.

I scan out massive wormhole chains in an unbonused ship with a t1 launcher all the time, with level 4ish skills and no scanning mods or rigs. Sure it's a bit slower, but all those fancy mods just give you incremental efficiency increases anyway. Pick your battles for now. Don't feel like you have to have a t2 buzzard with t2 rigs and t2 modules before you can scout for your group.

Like others said, D-scan is actually your main tool as a scout and it takes 0 skills to use, just experience. Do a bit of googling and maybe watch some videos; it's pretty easy to use once you know the concept. The hard part is interpreting the results. Are these ships a threat or easy targets? - that's where your friends can help you.

A little tip for d-scan: make sure you are using a clean overview tab with just the essentials for best efficiency. Include ships, stations, jump gates, bubbles, POS forcefields...stuff you want to know about before you warp on-grid. Everything else will just clutter up your dscan and slow you down. I've been meaning to write up a little d-scan guide explaining how to set up the overview and find targets. Perhaps I'll post it if I get around to it. In the mean time there are plenty of other resources out there.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Velicitia
XS Tech
#7 - 2014-04-30 15:35:55 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Learn to play FIRST in the T1 variants (i.e. if you're going Caldari -- The CovOps is the Heron. Fly the Griffin for now so you can get a feel for scouting/probing/etc).
The rest of your post is good advice, but you got the ship names wrong:

The Caldari CovOps is the Buzzard. The Caldari T1 scanning frigate is the Heron.
The Griffin is the T1 ECM frigate.



Whoops, fix'd it.

As you can tell, I don't fly Caldari much (read: ever)Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#8 - 2014-04-30 15:42:02 UTC
If you're running as a scout in a small gang:

1: You do need to be in a frigate. They're just flat out faster, warp faster, lock faster, and set safe-points faster than any of the heavier ships. But you don't have to be in a cov-ops frigate.

1a: Personally, I recommend a light interceptor (e.g. the Ares as opposed to the heavy interceptor, the Taranis, that has extra gun-power) and just sticking a normal cloak and probe bay on it. Fit the rest of it like an actual interceptor, or tackler if you're running the T1 version, and turn modules on/off in space as needed. Getting places quickly is your primary asset in low and high-sec, the covops cloak is only VITAL in null. Since you're frequently in the fight first (usually accidentally), starting the tackling is logical as well.

2: If you do go the stealth route, pretty much every Navigation skill that applies to your ship needs to be at IV, minimum. When you're cloaked you have no propulsion and to avoid getting de-cloaked in traps you need to be able to accellerate quickly and maintain a good straight-line clip.

3: If you go the interceptor/tackler route, the modules you want to look at (in addition to the scanning stuff you have) are the Warp Scrambler, the Warp Disruptor, and the Webber.

4: Either way, I'd take the time to get basically every skill with "Astrometrics" in the name to IV, maybe V if you have the time. You want your skills to be good enough that you aren't stuck in the same ship because you can't function without the scanning bonus. Get it to where you can slap that probe bay into whatever you want and still find sites.
Samuel Triptee
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#9 - 2014-04-30 15:43:02 UTC
Your situation awareness and communication skills are very important when scouting.

Using the D-Scan, Probes and Maps will help you gather information your fleet needs. However, if you can't speak clearly, concisely, and accurately all your skills in gathering information will be wasted.

For instance, say you're scouting and you've just jumped through a gate ahead of your fleet. You find there are 7 neuts (enemies) within 15km of your location. You see 2 Slashers, 3 Vexors, 1 Stabber, and 1 Atron...

Instead of blurting out, "Oh (choose your favorite panic word)!! there's a bunch of guys all around me! Hurry up, get here quick, I need help!"

Try these steps:

1. Don't Panic - Remember you will be cloaked after jumping (most of the time).

2. Don't Panic - You have 15 to 30 seconds to gather information.

3. Zoom out - This will help you see the entire Grid.

4. Look at your overview for ship types and quantity.

5. Don't Panic - Take a calming breath.

6. Take control of the comms by saying, "Check Check". (your fleet should clear comms immediately)

7. When comms are clear, calmly say, "Seven neuts (enemies), 15K off gate".

8. Don't Panic - Remember you are cloaked.


The FC will most likely ask what type of ships. So, simply and calmly answer, "Two Slashers, three Vexors, one Stabber. One Atron, just warped".


You've just given your fleet FC a very good picture of what waits on the other side of the gate in a matter of a few seconds.

Be calm and accurate,. You will get faster with practice, so don't try to hurry.

Calm and accurate...

Have You Hugged Your Frigate Today?
Slied
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-04-30 17:18:51 UTC
Once you get to cov-ops, they all perform the scout role the same.

However, I would place them in this order (in my personal opinion)
Gal>Cal>Min>Amar

The reason being is if you decide to do exploration later (pve), and before you get proficient lvls in cov-ops skills, the amarr scan frigate for example only has 3 mid slots, and cannot equip all useful mods you'd need (4 of them usually)

Even after skilling into cov-ops it still has 4 med slots vs 5 for Gal-Cal ships. (Imo, none will be really tanked/dps so utility from extra mids is much better)

Hope that lets you narrow the choices.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-04-30 18:44:05 UTC
Samuel Triptee wrote:
Your situation awareness and communication skills are very important when scouting.

Using the D-Scan, Probes and Maps will help you gather information your fleet needs. However, if you can't speak clearly, concisely, and accurately all your skills in gathering information will be wasted.

For instance, say you're scouting and you've just jumped through a gate ahead of your fleet. You find there are 7 neuts (enemies) within 15km of your location. You see 2 Slashers, 3 Vexors, 1 Stabber, and 1 Atron...

Instead of blurting out, "Oh (choose your favorite panic word)!! there's a bunch of guys all around me! Hurry up, get here quick, I need help!"

Try these steps:

1. Don't Panic - Remember you will be cloaked after jumping (most of the time).

2. Don't Panic - You have 15 to 30 seconds to gather information.

3. Zoom out - This will help you see the entire Grid.

4. Look at your overview for ship types and quantity.

5. Don't Panic - Take a calming breath.

6. Take control of the comms by saying, "Check Check". (your fleet should clear comms immediately)

7. When comms are clear, calmly say, "Seven neuts (enemies), 15K off gate".

8. Don't Panic - Remember you are cloaked.


The FC will most likely ask what type of ships. So, simply and calmly answer, "Two Slashers, three Vexors, one Stabber. One Atron, just warped".


You've just given your fleet FC a very good picture of what waits on the other side of the gate in a matter of a few seconds.

Be calm and accurate,. You will get faster with practice, so don't try to hurry.

Calm and accurate...

Its also recommended to get off of grid at this point =D.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#12 - 2014-04-30 21:55:48 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Gabriel Z wrote:
* Expanded probe launcher II
* Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II (not absolutely required, but very useful)
* Cov Ops ship
* Cov Ops Cloak
* Scanning upgrade II modules (if you don't have all max skills, this is how you make up the difference)
* Be able to fit the covops with those modules, plus a microwarpdrive, without having to devote more than 2 slots to fitting modules/rigs (mods/rigs that boost CPU, Powergrid)


This is very silly advice. All of these mods are useful...but necessary? No.

You're either not doing any PvP scanning or you've got all the time in the world, which is the one thing a scout doesn't have. None of these are huge training times except for the core covops skills and Astrometrics V. Sure, if you're going to just be scanning down nothing but PvE sites and you don't (or, more accurately, your buddies don't) mind that it takes you forever to scan down sites, you can definitely do with less. However, if time is important (because running more sites = more money) or you're trying to scan for PvP reasons, you simply cannot spend 5 or 10 minutes screwing around with scan probes while you're trying to deal with the constantly moving signature because your scan deviation is crap.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-05-01 04:11:14 UTC
Gabriel Z wrote:
You're either not doing any PvP scanning or you've got all the time in the world, which is the one thing a scout doesn't have. None of these are huge training times except for the core covops skills and Astrometrics V. Sure, if you're going to just be scanning down nothing but PvE sites and you don't (or, more accurately, your buddies don't) mind that it takes you forever to scan down sites, you can definitely do with less. However, if time is important (because running more sites = more money) or you're trying to scan for PvP reasons, you simply cannot spend 5 or 10 minutes screwing around with scan probes while you're trying to deal with the constantly moving signature because your scan deviation is crap.


I'll consent that it's a good list for someone that wants the "ultimate" scanning ship, but I maintain that it's absolute overkill for a new player wanting to get into scouting. A bonused ship, some t1 mods and rigs, and set of sisters probes are all you need to get started.

Experience with dscan and the scanning interface are honestly the limiting efficiency factors for new players. So OP, get out there and practice. See if you can scan down abandoned drones. Use your dscan to find their approximate position and then combat scan. Once you're good at it you will be able to have the probes out for a very short time.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#14 - 2014-05-01 05:45:41 UTC
Gabriel Z wrote:
However, if time is important (because running more sites = more money) or you're trying to scan for PvP reasons, you simply cannot spend 5 or 10 minutes screwing around with scan probes while you're trying to deal with the constantly moving signature because your scan deviation is crap.


About 10 seconds per scan with low skills, at most four scans if you know what you're doing. What's going to elude you are the harder-to-find cosmic signatures, not spaceships. The most important thing to learn is that the interesting cosmic signatures are always within 4AU of a celestial, and you will have the huge red balls from the system scanner telling you exactly where to start looking with a 4AU precision probe formation.

There's no need for T2 rigs on a covops frigate, just use Sisters launcher and Sisters probes. Don't be cheap, or you'll stay poor.

When it comes to finding ships, the important skill to learn is narrowing down your search range using D-scan. Then you deploy your probe formation more than 14AU from the target, set it to the appropriate range, move it on top of your target, scan, then immediately move the probes elsewhere (scanning a different celestial 14AU from the target, or recalling the probes to your ship).

An important module for a scouting ship which will be going through gates looking for hostiles is a micro warp drive to go along with the cloaking device. If you're in a pickle, burn to the gate, turn on your cloak, and pray that you make it to the gate before you're decloaked and exploded :)

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Ethikos
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-05-01 08:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ethikos
First, its great to see you trying the role of scout. It is one of my favorite. I actually have a little different take on it from the above responses, though that is likely because the purpose of scouting in Sniggwaffe is different from the above responder's purposes.

Scouting, Purpose:
All of the below is based around scouting for PvP. Roams, moving fleets between systems, etc. If your looking for PvE scouting, ignore this.

Ships:
I vastly prefer the interceptor. Specifically the fleet interceptor. My favorite is the Malediction. Below is the reason I prefer the interceptor and the reason I prefer the malediction specifically.

- Interceptor: They are extremely fast (warp speed and base speed). They are very agile (meaning you will turn / warp / etc quickly). They have a warp bubble nullification bonus, this means that in null sec warp bubbles won't stop your warp (you have to be actively pointed by a warp scrambler or warp disruptor). This is huge for quickly moving around null sec and scouting enemy camps / bubbles.

- Maledication: First its a fleet interceptor so you get a bonus to your point (warp disruptor) or scram (warp scrambler) range. This may not seem huge, but it can be the difference in making the tackle or missing the enemy ship. Second you have a bonus to your armor resist per frigate level, this helps you stay alive longer. Third, it uses missiles for weapons which means enemy and your speed / transversal is far less of an issue (huge in frigate vs frigate fights).

Scouting Tips:
- Your job is check a system (generally +1 of the main fleet) for enemy activity and things to kill. In a fight, your job is to help tackle enemy ships. Your DPS is mainly there to help drive off enemy tackle. Think of your point / scram as your main weapon. Remember pointing a ship will get you in on the kill mail.

- Communicate clearly and concisely to the FC.
Bad Example: "****" ...... *crickets* ...... "uh no DOH" ...... "oh yeah, I died; enemy fleet on in gate".
Good Example: "FC jumping into Kinakka, 30 in local, enemy fleet on in gate, roughly 20 cruisers, getting you a d scan."

- Learn how to use short scan and long scan via the directional scanner tool. Also look into scan tools such dingo scan and the like.

- Finding enemy ships does not always require probing. If they are in a site or in wormhole space, sure. But if your just going on a roam, hit up the asteroid belts / hubs / station / faction warfare sites / etc. Probing can take a lot of time. If your on a roam, generally you want to keep the action going to keep everyone in your fleet interested.

- Don't get to far ahead of the fleet. Generally stay +1. If your two or three systems out, an enemy fleet could have jumped into system behind you via a third gate.

- If your tackling, make sure everyone has you on their watch list. That way they can warp to you once the fleet jumps into system. Until they land, your job is to stay alive and hold the tackle. Hello prop mod (MWD or AB), don't worry about your DPS as much. A lot of ships will put drones on you to try and kill you / break the tackle; if your using a Malediction use your missiles to kill the drones first (Warrior IIs can HURT).

- If your in a fleet fight, do not immediately dive in for the tackle. Your faster than the rest of your fleet. If the enemy fleet is trying to brawl, let the fight get mixed up for a bit. THEN dive in and point something expensive. This will save you from being called primary first simple because your the only thing in range of the enemy fleet. Also, if your using the Malediction, put your missiles on the enemy tackle frigate. Killing them makes it much easier for your fleet to run if the fight goes against you.

Sniggwaffe (Waffles)
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#16 - 2014-05-01 12:20:01 UTC
Giving concise information quickly, is possibly the most important player skill to develop. Once you have jumped a gate, you have a full minute before you decloak. Use this time to get your bearings, and relay information to your fleet. What is on grid? What is on scan? These two questions can be ansered within 10 secons, leaving you with 50 seconds to do some detailed scans, or report other phenomena of note.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#17 - 2014-05-02 00:12:41 UTC
Gabriel Z wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:
Gabriel Z wrote:
* Expanded probe launcher II
* Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II (not absolutely required, but very useful)
* Cov Ops ship
* Cov Ops Cloak
* Scanning upgrade II modules (if you don't have all max skills, this is how you make up the difference)
* Be able to fit the covops with those modules, plus a microwarpdrive, without having to devote more than 2 slots to fitting modules/rigs (mods/rigs that boost CPU, Powergrid)


This is very silly advice. All of these mods are useful...but necessary? No.

You're either not doing any PvP scanning or you've got all the time in the world, which is the one thing a scout doesn't have. None of these are huge training times except for the core covops skills and Astrometrics V. Sure, if you're going to just be scanning down nothing but PvE sites and you don't (or, more accurately, your buddies don't) mind that it takes you forever to scan down sites, you can definitely do with less. However, if time is important (because running more sites = more money) or you're trying to scan for PvP reasons, you simply cannot spend 5 or 10 minutes screwing around with scan probes while you're trying to deal with the constantly moving signature because your scan deviation is crap.


Most of what you list are fairly recent additions to the game. Do you think scanning wasn't viable at all before they were added, then?
5-10 minutes is too long for an alpha-clone alt to spend scanning for a site, let alone a properly fit ship and a sprinkle of L4 skills. Like Mara said, you can know where to look in most cases so you don't play follow the red balls.

A T1 scanning frigate with L4 in the frigate skill and the astrometrics to 3 is all you need to start out.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#18 - 2014-05-02 03:35:12 UTC
Being a forward scout for a fleet was the hardest job I've ever done.

It isn't so much skill points or piloting skills, as the ability to gather a lot of info quickly and accurately, as well as report it all quickly in an executive summary.

Practice is what I'd say is needed most.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#19 - 2014-05-03 19:54:41 UTC
Aside from obvious skills, modules and ships you need player skills and experience.

  • you need to know what to look for a fleet
    • you need to identify threats and targets from d-scan
    you need to know how to read signatures
    you need to be able to probe quickly and without being noticed.
Ian Morbius
Robby Altair Corporation
#20 - 2014-05-03 20:33:06 UTC
And after you have taken the good advice above, and created great covert ops/scout pilot, then consider training up those Stealth Bomber pilot skills.

Ref:
Covert Ships Skillset
Stealth Bomber