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How Real is EVE?

Author
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-12-02 10:01:01 UTC
"EVE is Real." True? Not true? What does it mean to you?
-- question by John Carter (@john_carter)

Plato would have applauded this sort of examination. (Or maybe I'm confusing Plato with Morpheus.) To what extent is EVE Online the Cave. How much red pill, how much blue pill, what ratio of the two does New Eden represent to us?

What makes EVE Online real for its players is that there are consequences to the game play. In other games, loss translates only to time. You lose a boss fight in a game like World of Warcraft, all that you've lost is the time it takes to make your way back to the encounter. You lose to a fellow player in EVE Online, you lose not only time and items, but pride and ego.

What makes EVE Online real for its players is that this game is a shared experience between 50,000 players. That every player shares the same gamespace has an emotional weight. There's the real notion of the butterfly effect. That everybody contributes to the game as a whole. Other games, the shared experience is limited to groups of 5, 10, or 25 people. In other games, everything is rinse and repeat, there's nothing to lose, thus nothing of consequence that can ripple throughout the gamespace. In other games, the gamespace is like a generic sitcom, there's no continuity, the characters, the environment, everything is reset at the start of every episode. EVE Online is Lost, Fringe, The Wire, Battlestar Galactica, it's a soap opera, a continuing drama. In other games, the drama is created by a game company and the players react to that drama, they are never the storytellers. In EVE Online, the drama is created by the players and the players react to each other. Shared experience. Players as authors of their gamespace.

What makes EVE Online real for its players is that consequence ripples throughout the gamespace for weeks, months, and years. From the simplest personal loss, to the largest alliance conquests, winning and losing has meaning. Take the recent annihilation of the Northern Coalition. Or even the destruction of Band of Brothers. These events still have impact, even though months and years have since passed. The metrics for success in this game are not transient. You plant your flag for all to see. You dare others to tear it down.

What makes EVE Online real for its players is that the arrow of time is all too evident. There are no do-overs. You cannot go back. There are no repeatsies.

What makes EVE Online real for its players is the meta-game. In other games, the accomplishments of the players are insular; what you accomplish has no bearing or effect on anyone else. In EVE, what you accomplish has effect on the entire game world. In other games, the game itself exists only while the client is running. In EVE, the game exists well outside of the client. Accomplishments in EVE require planning, politics, subterfuge, which, by necessity, are mostly achieved away from the pixels of spaceships. People think EVE well after they've turned their monitors off.

-- from EVE Blog-a-Day #010 - How Real is EVE? (Yes, a link to my blog. Deal with it.)
Septohak
The Andromeda Syndicate
#2 - 2011-12-02 10:09:23 UTC
Quite an interesting article...
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-12-02 10:53:05 UTC
How real is EVE to Veskin Sentinel?
Quote:
Yes. It's true that people live in New Eden even outside of their computers. What EVE gives to players is a strong and vivid emotional experience, one that resonates long after they have stopped playing. This is fantastic! :)

Take me for example - I stopped playing EVE since the Incarna Expansion, cause my hardware got outdated. But I am still living in EVE. I sit there and watch the news of EVE in the Internet space.

And every little piece of information about EVE is like a piece of chocolate to me - no matter how small it is, it makes me happy.
Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-12-02 10:55:39 UTC
tl;dr - Eve Online Vs World of Warcraft.
(Eve Online is better.)
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-12-02 10:59:05 UTC
Gealbhan wrote:
tl;dr - Eve Online Vs World of Warcraft.
(Eve Online is better.)
I could have easily drawn comparisons to LotRO or GW or Conan or SWTOR, but everyone is more familiar with WoW.
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#6 - 2011-12-02 12:22:48 UTC
I hate to break it to you, but EvE is just a game, like any other game.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-12-02 12:27:36 UTC
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but EvE is just a game, like any other game.


And when you log in you cease to exit in real world. Right there.
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-12-02 12:34:07 UTC
----Getting a job at Wal-Mart doesn't automatically let me shoot the old ladies at the front door.

----If someone shoots a guy in front of the cops and gets shot, I can't go up and steal both of their wallets in front of them.

----Corporations do not have taxes. All the money you make goes to them and they pay YOU.

---- The closest thing to "Ratting" is finding guys who need to pay their child support.

EVE is not that real.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-12-02 12:37:57 UTC
Russell Casey wrote:
----Getting a job at Wal-Mart doesn't automatically let me shoot the old ladies at the front door.

----If someone shoots a guy in front of the cops and gets shot, I can't go up and steal both of their wallets in front of them.

----Corporations do not have taxes. All the money you make goes to them and they pay YOU.

---- The closest thing to "Ratting" is finding guys who need to pay their child support.

EVE is not that real.


Depend. Reality as you described is not that real either. Its just bunch of "socially accepted man-made rules"

Reality is what you perceive as such, and is strongly influenced by "society" you grew up.
Yes we know something about external reality, but to describe it we use abbreviations/math/physics etc. so we don't understand it directly we understand those rules which has been created.
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#10 - 2011-12-02 12:43:43 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but EvE is just a game, like any other game.


And when you log in you cease to exit in real world. Right there.


Just like any other game....
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-12-02 12:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but EvE is just a game, like any other game.


And when you log in you cease to exit in real world. Right there.


Just like any other game....


true. In essence day to day life is an game too.. For someone its an social game, for others its an wealth-fare game.

Suicide is simple act where you are too bored to play another day.
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#12 - 2011-12-02 12:52:01 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but EvE is just a game, like any other game.


And when you log in you cease to exit in real world. Right there.


Just like any other game....


true. In essence day to day life is an game too.. For someone its an social game, for others its an wealth-fare game.

Suicide is simple act where you are too bored to play another day.


Real life has real life consequences, pixel life has pixel life consequences. Does one carry more weight than the other, that all depends on your sense of reality.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2011-12-02 12:55:19 UTC
well if i wont count few dozens people who are important enough, then real life for 99,9 percent of world population is in essence meaningless and pointless with no real consequences.

Life value is over-rated.

If the life in whole universe cease to exist right now, then well nothing really happened, since nobody will be there to create an understanding of its being bad or good.

The rest just going from that point on.
Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
#14 - 2011-12-02 13:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Krathos Morpheus
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Real life has real life consequences, pixel life has pixel life consequences. Does one carry more weight than the other, that all depends on your sense of reality.

Not really your sense but how it affects the world, the real world (as we are talking about reality). Is it real? Yes, it is a real game that exists in reality. There is only one reality (that we know of) and everything exists in that reality. EVE exists as a game in this reality, so it is real as that.

As for the cavern tale, for as long as you know about the world behind the shadows, you will know the shadows are projections, you will know what is real, the shadows are real but only as shadows. If you don't know about the world behind, it also does not make the world disappear, it just makes your perception of reality distorted, the same way politicians get to people. Being a lie that is believed does not make it real. The earth was spheric even when people believed it wasn't.

EVE is real as a bunch of people connected and playing the same game in the same virtual world, enriching our collective and individual imaginations. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
#15 - 2011-12-02 13:19:58 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but EvE is just a game, like any other game.


And when you log in you cease to exit in real world. Right there.
No you don't. Try it for a week, I bet it won't pass a full day until you have to go pee because you still exist here.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#16 - 2011-12-02 13:21:36 UTC
This game is real for no life sad sacks with nothing else. You can always spot them as they start threads on the most poinltess subjects.


And these ripples are not as big as you think. Most low level corps in highsec live in bubbles. Nothing changes the mission structures. the only thing that might changes are commodity prices/minerals.
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#17 - 2011-12-02 13:22:44 UTC
Krathos Morpheus wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Real life has real life consequences, pixel life has pixel life consequences. Does one carry more weight than the other, that all depends on your sense of reality.

Not really your sense but how it affects the world, the real world (as we are talking about reality). Is it real? Yes, it is a real game that exists in reality. There is only one reality (that we know of) and everything exists in that reality. EVE exists as a game in this reality, so it is real as that.

As for the cavern tale, for as long as you know about the world behind the shadows, you will know the shadows are projections, you will know what is real, the shadows are real but only as shadows. If you don't know about the world behind, it also does not make the world disappear, it just makes your perception of reality distorted, the same way politicians get to people. Being a lie that is believed does not make it real. The earth was spheric even when people believed it wasn't.

EVE is real as a bunch of people connected and playing the same game in the same virtual world, enriching our collective and individual imaginations. Nothing more. Nothing less.


As said, just like any other game. Just because it is played on one server does not make it any more real than any other game.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-12-02 13:24:11 UTC
I enjoy myself while playing EVE. I also enjoy playing with and speaking with my corpmates. Those people are real.

EVE for me is just a real as any other sports or other club.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#19 - 2011-12-02 13:35:05 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
I enjoy myself while playing EVE. I also enjoy playing with and speaking with my corpmates. Those people are real.

EVE for me is just a real as any other sports or other club.


Indeed, MMORPG's are based on social interaction. The argument that one MMORPG is more real than another is nothing more than ignorance. Some prefer roleplaying space pilots, others as orcs and elves. It's all down to personal preference.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#20 - 2011-12-02 13:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
What makes EVE Online real for its players is that there are consequences to the game play. In other games, loss translates only to time. You lose a boss fight in a game like World of Warcraft, all that you've lost is the time it takes to make your way back to the encounter. You lose to a fellow player in EVE Online, you lose not only time and items, but pride and ego.

...

What makes EVE Online real for its players is the meta-game. In other games, the accomplishments of the players are insular; what you accomplish has no bearing or effect on anyone else. In EVE, what you accomplish has effect on the entire game world. In other games, the game itself exists only while the client is running. In EVE, the game exists well outside of the client. Accomplishments in EVE require planning, politics, subterfuge, which, by necessity, are mostly achieved away from the pixels of spaceships. People think EVE well after they've turned their monitors off.

No, in other games, loss doesn't*** translate only to time. I've been playing this game for almost a decade, and you'll be hard-pressed to find a bigger fan, but this needless trip to inflate its ego is unnecessary. You're doing EVE a disservice.

I've played WoW for quite a long time as well (recently stopped), and I can tell you as a matter of fact that WoW raiding guilds can pretty easily break apart on just a few extra wipes. Guilds that do well command the same respect that the upper-tier alliances in EVE do, and that's just server-wide. The top-ranked guilds that get world-first achievements are recognized by tens of millions worldwide. Your raid achievements, gear, and arena rating, are all a source of competition. The same pride and ego exist in WoW, as they do in EVE, and can just as easily be shattered.

About the only argument I agree with is the insularity of WoW achievements; your actions in-game don't affect the game world itself. However, the game definitely exists outside of the game client. Being the best means devoting time, thought, and discussion to strategy, for both pve and pvp. Some of the user-side calculations for things like optimizing dps put EVE math to shame.

Am I saying WoW is better than EVE? No, not at all. But I'm not saying it's worse either. They're two separate games, catering to, for the most part, different demographics. But, because they're both MMOs, they also share some similarities. One of them is the concept of a persistent game world that translates into a sense of "reality" beyond it. And if you don't want to take my word for it, go lose a loot roll to a Hunter. You'll quickly understand just how "real" things can get.

By the way, this whole argument isn't just limited to WoW. WoW is simply the game more people are familiar with, and serves as a good base for a comparison.


*** Or rather, loss translates to time in all games. No matter how you rationalize things, I can at most lose in EVE what I've gained from the first minute onwards (RMT meta-spending not included). I started with a Velator, and try as you might, you won't be able to decrease my holdings beyond that point.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

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