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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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Ludacrys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#441 - 2014-04-29 23:16:55 UTC
So what is the point of having an industry POS anymore?

>Have to pay for POS fuel
>Have to pay "workforce" (installations fees)
>Have to fly stuff to POS (fuel, materials)
>Have to fly stuff from POS (products)
>BPOs are not secure anymore
>Nothing is secure in a POS against PVP

>you get a 10% reduction in installation fees (negligible)
>you get a manufacturing time bonus
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#442 - 2014-04-29 23:20:56 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
if someone blows up my pos, all they got out of it was an unpleasant few hundred man-hours and the hope that I'll say something hilarious enough to make it all worth it

there is no incentive to attack pos because there is no profit in it: they don't drop anything. as a result, short of you pissing someone off, why are they going to bother to mess with your production? They won't, nobody's idea of a good time is bashing dickstars.

That said, my issue with POS bonuses have been resolved, so it's sort of a moot point.


If someone blows up your POS, they get to loot the things that do drop stuff. Your understanding of POSes is poor. CHAs & labs (have a chance to) drop whatever what inside when they are exploded, and you can always unanchor the modules to sell them for profit. So there is plenty of motivation to shoot a POS.

A dickstar is (by definition) not going to be used for production. Any POS that is used for production will not be a dickstar, because its CPU and PG are going to be running assembly lines rather than ECM. Besides, Marauders and super capitals make dickstars obsolete.


You could anchor the hardeners and if decced, then offline the labs and what not and online the hardeners.

And since there is no more concept of slots, you will only need one lab for all your needs. That is you could free up lots of CPU and PG for more defenses.

The only reason I could see somebody hitting a POS is if they are really really intent on knocking the competition out for awhile. Even then that may be rare.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#443 - 2014-04-29 23:22:06 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

Quote:

Taxes: NPC-owned facilities will levy a 10% tax on top of everything else. This will be at least absent in player-owned facilities, and if we have time, we will allow players to set whatever arbitrary tax rate they like on their own facilities, the proceeds of which (the tax specifically, that is) will go directly into their own (or their corporation's in most cases) coffers


Ten percent of what? Build cost, total other fees, or something else?



It's a 1.1x multiplier at the end of the formula, so 10% of the job fees.


Wait.... what?

OMG! How did I miss this?!

So, the 10% NPC station tax is not 10% of goods being produced, but the fees?

No wonder POS owners are freaked out!

So, if we're building somewhere where POS is 4%, then station is 4.4%?

If it was going to cost me 3% to copy at a POS, it is 3.3% in station?

It needs to be more like 4% for POS, 14% for station... not 4% for POS, 4.4% for station to come CLOSE to being worth it to manufacture or research from a POS.


Well, YEAH... POS is dead. No wonder everyone who already got it was saying this....

Put up a small POS for a couple hours to run the compression array, then pack it up and put it back into station.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#444 - 2014-04-29 23:24:36 UTC
Ludacrys wrote:
So what is the point of having an industry POS anymore?

>Have to pay for POS fuel
>Have to pay "workforce" (installations fees)
>Have to fly stuff to POS (fuel, materials)
>Have to fly stuff from POS (products)
>BPOs are not secure anymore
>Nothing is secure in a POS against PVP

>you get a 10% reduction in installation fees (negligible)
>you get a manufacturing time bonus



Ore compression arrays?

Other than that, we might indeed see alot of POSes coming down as people move into stations. Might see more go up in null if null industry does take off. After all, going to a nearly always empty system, setting up a POS would minimize those installation fees. Then again, the Caldari outposts have a nice bonus regarding that too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Caval Marten
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#445 - 2014-04-29 23:28:03 UTC
I think there may be some unrealized potential to make these industrial changes a conflict driver in Faction Warfare. Buff the industrial changes to the FW tiers to match null (after all FW space is more dangerous than the blue sea nullbears work within) thereby creating an incentive for corps to move in and "own" FW systems.

What are the legitimate options for corps wanting to compete with the major null blocs in industry.. become their pet or become a renter. Alternatively, make industry in FW competitive with null and small corps/alliances can stake a claim in FW and actually defend it without the backing of a major alliance. This has the added side effect that more and more FW systems become conflict centers. You know now that if you try and take Houla or Siseide you are going to get fights, this mainly comes down to pride or asset protection. Put the industrial arm of an FW alliance at risk of losing their income stream and you will get fights in these different systems as well.

tldr: FW tier 5 should provide the same industrial benefits as null
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#446 - 2014-04-29 23:28:15 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

Quote:

Taxes: NPC-owned facilities will levy a 10% tax on top of everything else. This will be at least absent in player-owned facilities, and if we have time, we will allow players to set whatever arbitrary tax rate they like on their own facilities, the proceeds of which (the tax specifically, that is) will go directly into their own (or their corporation's in most cases) coffers


Ten percent of what? Build cost, total other fees, or something else?



It's a 1.1x multiplier at the end of the formula, so 10% of the job fees.


Wait.... what?

OMG! How did I miss this?!

So, the 10% NPC station tax is not 10% of goods being produced, but the fees?

No wonder POS owners are freaked out!

So, if we're building somewhere where POS is 4%, then station is 4.4%?

If it was going to cost me 3% to copy at a POS, it is 3.3% in station?

It needs to be more like 4% for POS, 14% for station... not 4% for POS, 4.4% for station to come CLOSE to being worth it to manufacture or research from a POS.


Well, YEAH... POS is dead. No wonder everyone who already got it was saying this....

Put up a small POS for a couple hours to run the compression array, then pack it up and put it back into station.



You can always take down the POS and save yourself the cost of POS fuel and only for a 10% increases in your run jobs (ok, yeah, there is the time savings of POS, but since copy times are getting reduced that time savings isn't that big anymore, at least for copying).

I mean why set up an artificial and arbitrary barrier like that so that we keep POSes up and running?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#447 - 2014-04-29 23:32:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
A dickstar is (by definition) not going to be used for production. Any POS that is used for production will not be a dickstar, because its CPU and PG are going to be running assembly lines rather than ECM. Besides, Marauders and super capitals make dickstars obsolete.


Except now I only need one of each type of array instead of multiple, since they have infinite slots.. A large with a single lab and 3 or 4 small arrays, in high sec(so not cap ship array), has a bunch of CPU for hardeners and jammers.

No super caps in high sec. Good luck getting a massive fleet of marauders to pound all day on that high sec dickstar.
Bro Tatoe
Doomheim
#448 - 2014-04-29 23:34:50 UTC
I love how everytime ccp brings out a dev blog all i see is a wall of text thats not interesting to read nor easy to follow. Also when you guys actually going to release something new instead of screwing up what we already have?
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#449 - 2014-04-29 23:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Kolonko
CCP Greyscale wrote:
STARBASE STRUCTURES QUESTIONS: Ytterbium has just posted updated stats here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4527743#post4527743

Note that the ME boost is being cut down to 2%, we decided 5% was probably too strong.


Thats a huge dowside for POS owners. Unless someone is producing something requiring a large ammount of materials we will not get anything out of it.

T3's, rigs - both T1 and T2 - all of those use relativlely small ammount of items to produce, so no bonus or non-comparable bonus to (for example) mineral based production like t1 ships

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#450 - 2014-04-29 23:43:42 UTC
Building from a faction, pirate or "non empire" BPC just became much more expensive if I read this right.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#451 - 2014-04-29 23:50:47 UTC
Ludacrys wrote:
So what is the point of having an industry POS anymore?

>Have to pay for POS fuel
>Have to pay "workforce" (installations fees)
>Have to fly stuff to POS (fuel, materials)
>Have to fly stuff from POS (products)
>BPOs are not secure anymore
>Nothing is secure in a POS against PVP

>you get a 10% reduction in installation fees (negligible)
>you get a manufacturing time bonus




Essentially, it boils down to this:

"So what ?"

Once the game economy adjusts to it's new equilibrium with the new costs, it will be back to business as usual -- but with some areas getting preferential treatment as a means of encouraging "stuff" to happen. Really doesn't mean a whole lot to most players. Time is money, and wasting time to travel large distances to get some minor profit margin based on the remoteness of geography relative to the economy they want to profit from -- well, that only diminishes more and more as you have to travel farther and farther... soooooo....meh.

Probably see some amount of "construction boom" in Null for the more favourable Outpost configurations, but what really bothers me is all the unfinished content lurking in this upcoming expansion.

This shyte will come back to haunt us down the road. AGAIN. Evil

Fun times.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#452 - 2014-04-29 23:53:56 UTC
First thoughts: I'm glad to see something added to production that is an ISK sink, and not a minerals sink.

There's been too many mineral sinks added lately (especially tiericide) and all they do is increase the number of bot miners. ISK enters the economy through much more engaging gameplay than minerals do.


Secondly: Blueprint costs are mentioned for copy jobs. What cost is assigned to tech 2 BPOs in this process? Is it some system-generated value that is moderately close to the cost of the most similar T1 BPO, or is it a figure based upon the percieved secondary market value of the print? It might address many of the issues that have come up with T2 BPO copying if the latter is the case, and running a copy job on your Null M BPO is charged based upon a print value of 15 billion ISK.



Thirdly: If science jobs (copying/research etc) cost much ISK in practice, I expect we will see a major push toward people setting up POSes in no-station systems in highsec.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Ludacrys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#453 - 2014-04-29 23:54:45 UTC
What about T2 ships or anything that requires multiple steps in manufacturing?

To make a T2 ship you need to manufacture the components (which will be getting a 5% cost increase) on top of manufacturing the ship itself which will also get a 5% cost increase on TOP of the material cost increase, if anything is in danger of a cost spyral is T2 stuff, id watch the prices of jump freighters and T2 battleships specially
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#454 - 2014-04-29 23:57:36 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
STARBASE STRUCTURES QUESTIONS: Ytterbium has just posted updated stats here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4527743#post4527743

Note that the ME boost is being cut down to 2%, we decided 5% was probably too strong.


Thats a huge dowside for POS owners. Unless someone is producing something requiring a large ammount of materials we will not get anything out of it.

T3's, rigs - both T1 and T2 - all of those use relativlely small ammount of items to produce, so no bonus or non-comparable bonus to (for example) mineral based production like t1 ships



Stop building ****** items then
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#455 - 2014-04-30 00:00:47 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
Well other than these points I m happy with the changes

1- a +5% ME bonus for a fully upgraded amarr null sec stations seems high , maybe raise their run cost to compensate?

2- I think it s really important to have the NPC station tax be affected by standings. I hope u could consider doing it with the expansion!

Btw, is the industry implants effects still the same in the new system? Is it calculated above all other bonuses?


Great job


The full 5% bonus is a *lot* of money, and in any case is somewhat overshadowed currently by the Minmatar reprocessing bonus. We're not super-concerned about the balance here just yet.

I'll see what can be done about the standings.

I believe industry implants should still work, yes

+1 for making standing affect the NPC station tax.

Also a full 5% bonus is indeed a very good bonus for a null sec station. Imo that is possibly too much of an advantage for outposts, and definitely shouldn't be increased further.

Also any details on where we can find the station modifiers?


+1

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#456 - 2014-04-30 00:10:51 UTC
Sandbox Dev meeting:

"Oh Look! They are not doing what we wants them to do! Let's make non-compliance more painful!"

"Yes, yes let's!"


Months later......


" Why do they leave?"

"We HATES them! Tricksy Hobits"

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#457 - 2014-04-30 00:25:42 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
Sandbox Dev meeting:

"Oh Look! They are not doing what we wants them to do! Let's make non-compliance more painful!"

"Yes, yes let's!"


Months later......


" Why do they leave?"

"We HATES them! Tricksy Hobits"




EVE's population continues to grow year after year. Begone with you, chaff.
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#458 - 2014-04-30 00:34:52 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're not going to go into details on exactly how we're dealing with manipulation issues; the reason we're pretty confident is that we already use this system to price FW LP payouts and we've not seen a repeat of the price manipulation issues that system previously had since we put the new system in place. If there was manipulation to be done, we assume it would already be happening in FW.

Famous last words. Security through obscurity is never a good idea. Reveal your anti-manipulation methods, please. The global pricing thing has always had an air of randomness about it. Make it transparent so people can compare apples to apples. By not doing so you tacitly acknowledge that what you're doing is not foolproof and you yourselves don't really trust it. It sounds like a massive exploit just waiting to happen.
Prim Cloakjoy
Perkone
Caldari State
#459 - 2014-04-30 00:47:35 UTC
T2 BPO Buff Concerns:
T2 BPO Owners:
  • Will be able to reduce required amounts of materials previously in "extra materials" through research

    • Inventors:
  • Will require more amounts of materials previously in "extra materials" due to negative ME values
  • Will pay non-trivial copying install costs that T2 BPO owners will not
  • Will pay non-trivial invention costs that T2 BPO owners will not

    • This seem to add up to quite the buff! Could something be put in to offset this a bit?
  • Lower invention install cost?
  • Raise invention chance of success?
    • [*] Give invented BPCs higher base values for ME?
    Swidgen
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #460 - 2014-04-30 00:53:29 UTC
    Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
    CCP Greyscale said on page two of these comments that the idea of the industry changes is not to 'incentivize' nullsec industrial capability.

    Something doesn't add up. Kirith Kodachi blogged last week the following:
    Kirith Kodachi wrote:

    CCP wants to move people to null sec. Not just PvPers, but miners, industrialists, researchers, everyone. Everything in Rubicon and what has followed after since then suggests this direction in bright neon signs. They want farms and fields and populated by pilots toiling in them, and they can't do that while high sec has safer and more profitable (or competitively profitable) farms and fields with lots of room for everyone. So the carrot and the stick approach: make null sec more attractive while making high sec less attractive to do, well anything in.

    Then Jester chimed in and called that post "excellent", adding that he couldn't say any more about it because of the NDA. And now Greyscale says they are both wrong? Smells fishy to me.

    I probably still wouldn't buy a tinfoil hat from Dinsdale, but something ain't right. Mixed signals are being sent and depending on who you talk to, you get different answers.