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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#421 - 2014-04-29 22:08:44 UTC
Dalilus wrote:
and the nullbear BWAAAAAmbulace roars on.....


Nullbears: BWAAAAAAAA (gimme this), BWAAAAAAAAA (gime that), BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (we demand the following).
Whomever makes decisions in game to nerf highsec and buff patches in favor of nullbear alliances: calm down my pets I have the following for you "We're hopeful that the summer release will make manufacturing in nullsec more viable......."

Good grief.

Pathetic.

Please, massa, don't touch my sacred cow. It's sacred. Why is it sacred? I can't remember. It's just sacred.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#422 - 2014-04-29 22:10:33 UTC
The joke is that highsec production is a sacred cow.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#423 - 2014-04-29 22:11:17 UTC
CCP, these are some fearless changes. You really delivered on this one. Certainly, this will help support Eve forever.

Really though, these changes are nearly perfect. There are some kinks to work out with implementation, mainly POSs and T2 BPOs getting a worrisome buff in 0.0 facilities, but you're making a flat landscape lumpy, and that's the #1 thing that Eve needs. That's why people still love wormhole content years down the line.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#424 - 2014-04-29 22:12:53 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:



Infinate slots at POS now. So, even easier to produce that same output level. It becomes a limit to how many toons, how many jobs per toon, and how often you are willing to log in all those alts to deliver than start more jobs. Instead of stacking start times, everything starts immediately and runs concurrently.



Nope, the limit is how much space you have in the array... you will hit that long before you hit a character limit.


We were talking copy jobs. Very, very little space needed for BPO and BPCs.


lab capacity 25000 m3. BP = 0.01 m3. So, 2.5 million blueprints in a lab.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#425 - 2014-04-29 22:13:05 UTC
Maybe I'm missing something but, wasn't the intent of this whole exercise to make industry more transparent and accessible? To keep the barriers to entry for new players or rookie industrialists low? I've read through this blog and many dev replies multiple times now and I don't see how this new variability in costing structures accomplishes either.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that this new variability makes industry even more of a "spreadsheets in space" affair than it already is. How will it be possible to project and plan with any certainty under this system?



When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#426 - 2014-04-29 22:16:58 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Perfect refine without grinding NPC standings.

You must have perfect skills though, and an implant.

Neither of which were previously required.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Small update!

After sacrificing many Devs to the dark development gods, we are now able to confirm we will have reprocessing skills affect Starbase Reprocessing Arrays - if not for the Summer release, shortly after.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#427 - 2014-04-29 22:30:09 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Korthan Doshu wrote:
"CCP Greyscale" wrote:
For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.


Somebody else already mentioned invention. This is a big problem. The impact of an ME1 bonus on things with ME0 or more appears to be hugely different from the impact of an ME1 bonus on negative ME actions. I mean, point taken that reducing the 5% congestion cost in any way would quickly be meaningless, but giving inventors anywhere a shot at zero ME with no decryptors is way too big of a bonus. Only give the bonus when you're already at ME0, maybe?




5% build cost, i.e. ME-4 = 40% increase in material requirements. Slap an amarr station on that *****, you're only getting 35% increase in material requirements.



This was mentioned earlier. invention is being changed to produce a -40ME BPO, to replicate the 40% extra materials that used to come from ME -4. So, the upgraded outpist granting +5 ME reduces extra cost to 35% from 40%. BUT BPO can get super ME also, dropping it to 5% better than what had been perfect.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#428 - 2014-04-29 22:32:40 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Perfect refine without grinding NPC standings.

You must have perfect skills though, and an implant.

Neither of which were previously required.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Small update!

After sacrificing many Devs to the dark development gods, we are now able to confirm we will have reprocessing skills affect Starbase Reprocessing Arrays - if not for the Summer release, shortly after.



But as I understand, that applies to both POS and station. SO... net, net, the POS lets you avoid the NPC standings grind.

Both station and POS will have same base (though POS you will have to wait where station is immediate.)
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#429 - 2014-04-29 22:32:57 UTC
Dibble Dabble wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Dibble Dabble wrote:
So another lets screw hi sec industry corps blog.

No thanks CCP not interested in this crap. POS's are down. Accounts not plex'd.

Just waiting for the next blog now, I am not expecting much love for hi-sec.





CCP hath given you ability to leverage costs relative to the market [and thus earn lots and lots of isk off consumers]




You're really going to ***** about a buff to your own playstyle?


As I have said in another dev blog post the changes when applied as a whole make running a small industry corp much more difficult. Locked down BPO's need to be unlocked and moved to POS's (if your mad) or other systems and when you have maybe 400bil in BPO's it become a logistical mess.

We have taken the decision that as all of us have full time jobs we don't really need another . Our final POS will be down when the final batch is done and I think 15 accounts have been un-subbed leaving 3 maybe 5 active accounts between us. What we will do in Eve. if anything, remains to be seen. We are ISK heavy so its not as if we need to actually do anything at the last count we could buy over 100 plex's each before we dispose of any assets. But we see no reason to continue with hi-sec industry. We no longer need the accounts for building stuff they don't have any other useful skills and I think there will be glut or industry character for sale soon so they will be undervalued. Our BPO's will remain locked down in the corp hanger.

Your correct in that the changes will make things more expensive so as we anticipated such a move by CCP (have they ever made changes to make things cheaper?) so last week all market items and contracts have been terminated and we will remarket and factor in the cost increases at a future date.

We spend at least 40bil a month on plex, fuel, materials and sometimes double or triple that. In the scheme of things that a drop in the ocean when compared to large corps and alliance but I have seen at least 5 other POS's gone in the last week or so just from our system and they all belonged to small corps like ours. I have spoken to two of the corps and they don't see a future. Most will not leave Eve they will find something else to do, as we may do, but like us, it wont be hi-sec industry.

Hi Sec Industry. No Thanks. I already work for a living.





400b collection of prints = small industry corp
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#430 - 2014-04-29 22:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Weaselior wrote:
However, I'm fairly underwhelmed by the manufacturing slot replacement bonus. The reason is that it's exactly the same as the POS bonus: I can spend 60b on a station, or 300m on a pos. I think it's a little absurd that the absolute pinnacle of manufacturing you can aspire to, spend huge amounts of money to create, and have to defend gives you nothing better than a pos one jump from jita.


You don't have to defend POSes now? When did that happen?

Outposts have advantages over POSes such as:

  • Vast storage capacity
  • Markets
  • Offices
  • Deliveries (i.e.: you can have an outpost as a source or destination for a courier contract)
  • Better refineries


So by installing an outpost you are gaining many advantages over a POS. Do you really need more?

POSes allow for distributing the risk of an industrial organisation: rather than all your industry happening in one outpost, you have a number of POSes run by various corporations. Thus if one corporation splits from your alliance, you don't end up potentially losing the entirety of your industrial capacity. Rather than bubble-wrapping one single outpost, an enemy attempting to interdict your industry would have to bubble many POSes.

Weaselior wrote:
While people will claim pos are at risk, they're not: pos assembly arrays don't drop anything from a build in progress. Entity alluded to his "20b pos" in another thread, where if it was attacked he'd lose 20b of manufacturing products. But the thing is, if I bothered to find it and kill it, I'd get none of that: the assembly arrays would act like they were empty since between the build being installed and delivered, they are. So nobody will bother attacking pos unless someone's really pissed them off: it'll be purely for griefing and not for profit.


If an Outpost is captured by your enemy, you lose access to the stuff you had in that outpost. If you were clever you can still put that stuff on market or package it in contracts for sale, carriage or whatever.

If a POS is destroyed, you lose all the stuff you had in that POS. If you had 20B of materials involved in production jobs and someone blows up your POS, you lose that 20B. I'm not sure how that doesn't count as risk. Industry performed in a POS is a higher risk enterprise, thus should be more rewarding, shouldn't it?

As for "not for profit", I wonder why people get so excited about POS bashing and have lotteries for who gets the stuff that drops … because stuff does drop when you blow up things like labs and CHAs. Heck, you don't even need to blow things up to profit. Once the tower is down, simply unanchored the valuable structures and profit directly from the sale of the labs, assembly arrays, reactors, and so forth.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dracnys
#431 - 2014-04-29 22:34:04 UTC
Problems:
- there's little incentive to have POS under the new system. If you want to improve the industrialist gameplay you have to realize that many industrialists are currently using POSes
- since POS manufacturing now requires the blueprint to be in the POS, it is too dangerous to use originals. but if you use copies you'll be taxed on the copying (and pay the workforce), eating the advantage you gained from using a POS
- the cost calculation is very complicated. You just changed the way ME works to make it more straightforward (non-trivial math, yeah) and now you're using formulas with nearly a dozen factors
- constant station-hopping to find cheaper rates is annoying and dangerous because it requires moving lots of materials and valuable blueprints
- shopping around to find cheap rates is annoying if we have to fly to every station to find the rate, please give us a way to do this that respects the value of our time (see additions)

Risks:
- if standings become relevant industrialists who aren't interested in missions and aren't skilled for it have to shoot red crosses before they can efficiently do what they want to do
- there's a potential inflation spiral here: cost is calculated based on prices, higher costs result in higher prices, higher prices result in higher costs...
- the new costs will be a huge, huge ISK sink, one of the largest if not the largest by itself. The economic impact has to be thought through
- using straight ME improvement on nullsec stations is dangerous, it hasn't been done before, please think through all the risks: (low-volume, high value items produced only in nullsec...)

Additions:
- please add API data for the different costs in different systems
- add a statistic to the ingame map that allows people to search for low-cost systems
- give more examples on how costs are calculated and work out
- clear up terminology and find better names for different costs, "run costs" is bad

Positives:
- the new cost incentive system is much more interesting than limited slots and will make choice of location relevant

But I'm very happy that you're finally improving industry!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#432 - 2014-04-29 22:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Mara Rinn wrote:
If an Outpost is captured by your enemy, you lose access to the stuff you had in that outpost. If you were clever you can still put that stuff on market or package it in contracts for sale, carriage or whatever.

If a POS is destroyed, you lose all the stuff you had in that POS. If you had 20B of materials involved in production jobs and someone blows up your POS, you lose that 20B. I'm not sure how that doesn't count as risk. Industry performed in a POS is a higher risk enterprise, thus should be more rewarding, shouldn't it?

if someone captures my outpost, they got something out of it: an outpost. a very nice one, if i do say so myself

if someone blows up my pos, all they got out of it was an unpleasant few hundred man-hours and the hope that I'll say something hilarious enough to make it all worth it

there is no incentive to attack pos because there is no profit in it: they don't drop anything. as a result, short of you pissing someone off, why are they going to bother to mess with your production? They won't, nobody's idea of a good time is bashing dickstars.

That said, my issue with POS bonuses have been resolved, so it's sort of a moot point.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#433 - 2014-04-29 22:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
Shall we update the open issues?
(I'm sure I'm missing some or many)

Calculating multiple POS facilities in a system. They want to do it, but not sure how, without performance issues or opening up to exploit (can I online 20 labs, start jobs for discount, offline, online assembly array, start for discount, offline... repeat), and tight on time. Difficulty in that the module doesn't know what tower it is associated with.

Max copies changes? Up max runs to keep copy jobs from becoming the new click-fest? What effects will that have on
invention?

Copy times. Was geometric, not linear. Will it still be? How will that effect changes to max runs/invention?

Modules that used to give copy speed bonus? What to do about those?

What will happen with max-run BPCs created for invention, when/if max runs increases.

Cost to make a 100 run copy 100x more expensive than installing a research job on the same BPO?

Potential for T2 BPO production increased/decreased production from changes to copy time/need to be at POS to build from it at POS.

Corp able to put a tax on its POS facilities to fund the tower from its usage?

Throttling usage of outpost to allow some use, without worrying about exploding cost from over use.

NPC standings effecting install fees at NPC stations?

Partial research tracking to smooth upgrade (don't have to jump my ME 10 to perfect) and so that I don't have to put a BPO into a year's constant research (put it in for a month, take it out and make a bunch of copies, put it back in for another month, repeat 12 times to get it to that perfect.)

Enlarge capacity of assembly arrays minerals to reflect that I can run more jobs at each one instead of multiple jobs from multiple arrays.

POS power and CPU changes now that 1 facility can do the work of many? (may go away if they can fix the "multiple facilities issue")

Abandoned high sec tower removal?

If we're really switching to BPC manufacturing to protect BPO from corp theft, then improved way to market BPCs (contracts suck!)

Limitation on corp offices now that factories have infinite slots.

Adding the ability to build anything at POS (POS Structures and containers to name some that can not currently be built at POS).
Korthan Doshu
Doomheim
#434 - 2014-04-29 23:00:58 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Korthan Doshu wrote:
"CCP Greyscale" wrote:
For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.


Somebody else already mentioned invention. This is a big problem. The impact of an ME1 bonus on things with ME0 or more appears to be hugely different from the impact of an ME1 bonus on negative ME actions. I mean, point taken that reducing the 5% congestion cost in any way would quickly be meaningless, but giving inventors anywhere a shot at zero ME with no decryptors is way too big of a bonus. Only give the bonus when you're already at ME0, maybe?




5% build cost, i.e. ME-4 = 40% increase in material requirements. Slap an amarr station on that *****, you're only getting 35% increase in material requirements.



This was mentioned earlier. invention is being changed to produce a -40ME BPO, to replicate the 40% extra materials that used to come from ME -4. So, the upgraded outpist granting +5 ME reduces extra cost to 35% from 40%. BUT BPO can get super ME also, dropping it to 5% better than what had been perfect.


Ah, that's a fair reading of the dev blog. I hadn't understood them to be saying that they were actually producing -40% from invention but that each negative unit of ME meant 10%. That makes sense.
Korthan Doshu
Doomheim
#435 - 2014-04-29 23:02:54 UTC
[quote=LHA Tarawa]Shall we update the open issues?
(I'm sure I'm missing some or many)

Calculating multiple POS facilities in a system. They want to do it, but not sure how, without performance issues or opening up to exploit (can I online 20 labs, start jobs for discount, offline, online assembly array, start for discount, offline... repeat), and tight on time. Difficulty in that the module doesn't know what tower it is associated with.[\quote]

Long post from me about this earlier. To keep it close to your post here, the TLDR was that if they just count the number of jobs going on in a single array and increase the congestion tax a lot, they can incentivize using more arrays/POSes more easily until they do a more substantial revamp of starbases.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#436 - 2014-04-29 23:03:00 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:


No, you are leaving out the POS fuel costs. Fueling the POS for a month means you'll spend at least 100 million isk for a small.

Now maybe that will let you crank out a whole bunch of BPCs, and the price per copy isn't that horrendous, but a POS is not free.

Edit, and 400 million/month for a large. You better make a whole lotta BPCs. To get back at the 168,000 price you'll need to make almost 2,400 BPCs.


I operate a Large POS with lots of lines that we share among corp members.
40 blocks * 18k per block / 3600s/hr gives an operational cost of 200 isk per second. If you are using 20 lines at the POS, that's 10 isk / second per line. A 300 run BPC takes 2 * 12000s * 10 isk / s * 0.5 (Skill and POS time modifier) = 120k isk in fuel costs for a Max Run Module BPC.

It can be difficult to keep 20 lines running 24/7 all month for a solo player, but it isn't that hard for a group of players.



Infinate slots at POS now. So, even easier to produce that same output level. It becomes a limit to how many toons, how many jobs per toon, and how often you are willing to log in all those alts to deliver than start more jobs. Instead of stacking start times, everything starts immediately and runs concurrently.


Yes, its true you can do this, my point is that you wont necessarily be dodging costs here. You may dodge some of the run costs with a POS, but you'll then be incurring fuel costs as Gizznitt notes. And the more intensively you use your POS labs the more you'll be increasing the run costs too.

Whether one keeps their POS after these changes will obviously be the result of a cost-benefit calculation. But given that you'll have to put that BPO in the POS and the best way to utilize that POS might be to have multiple people using it (not necessarily alts, after all you wont spend all your time every day installing copy jobs) you'll be putting that BPO at risk...and if people have access to the labs...they can also unanchor your stuff too. So it all depends on how much you trust your buddies in game. Smile

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#437 - 2014-04-29 23:05:10 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Greyscale, these numbers are fascinating! However many people may still fear nullsec will pay low costs while highsec me I'll be high everywhere! Can you post numbers on how many systems in highsec see no activity at all so as to demonstrate how much people may he able to find low cost operating locations? BlinkBlinkBlink


You mean this bit?

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Manufacturing: The largest run price we generated from the snapshot we took was 15% of build cost in Saisio. 10th place is Juunigaishi at 8%, while 50th is Kakakela at 5%. Jita is in 106th place, at 4%. The highest lowsec system is [redacted] at 53rd and 5%, and the highest nullsec system is [redacted] at 147th place and 4%.


Or something else which somehow "proves" that null sec is getting the short end of the stick?

The numbers will change as time progresses, so as you perform more industry in null sec you'll be paying higher manufacturing costs. But when it costs 1M ISK extra to manufacture a ship in null sec versus 2M extra to jump it in from Jark, why would you jump the product into null sec instead of building it locally? Remembering that you already have the more efficient refineries, so you already do less work to get the ores that you aren't already shipping down from Jita. Then you have renters, so it's not like you will be doing the mining, it will be the null sec wannabes in renter corps who will be doing the mining and selling to your buy orders. Just like what happens in hi sec.

Then contrast the "savings" in build cost versus the cost of contract shipping: you might save 1% per ship building in remote hisec, but pay 1.1% of the value of the ship simply shipping it to somewhere you can sell it.

Keep up the propaganda war, mynnna and Weasellor.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#438 - 2014-04-29 23:08:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
if someone blows up my pos, all they got out of it was an unpleasant few hundred man-hours and the hope that I'll say something hilarious enough to make it all worth it

there is no incentive to attack pos because there is no profit in it: they don't drop anything. as a result, short of you pissing someone off, why are they going to bother to mess with your production? They won't, nobody's idea of a good time is bashing dickstars.

That said, my issue with POS bonuses have been resolved, so it's sort of a moot point.


If someone blows up your POS, they get to loot the things that do drop stuff. Your understanding of POSes is poor. CHAs & labs (have a chance to) drop whatever what inside when they are exploded, and you can always unanchor the modules to sell them for profit. So there is plenty of motivation to shoot a POS.

A dickstar is (by definition) not going to be used for production. Any POS that is used for production will not be a dickstar, because its CPU and PG are going to be running assembly lines rather than ECM. Besides, Marauders and super capitals make dickstars obsolete.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#439 - 2014-04-29 23:14:29 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

If someone blows up your POS, they get to loot the things that do drop stuff. Your understanding of POSes is poor. CHAs & labs (have a chance to) drop whatever what inside when they are exploded, and you can always unanchor the modules to sell them for profit. So there is plenty of motivation to shoot a POS.

wrong

they have a chance to drop whatever is sitting inside them at the time but not anything that is in build: that stuff is effectively not there. there is no motivation to attack an industrial pos, which has its things in build

the modules are basically worthless, only labs are worth anything at all

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#440 - 2014-04-29 23:14:51 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something but, wasn't the intent of this whole exercise to make industry more transparent and accessible? To keep the barriers to entry for new players or rookie industrialists low? I've read through this blog and many dev replies multiple times now and I don't see how this new variability in costing structures accomplishes either.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that this new variability makes industry even more of a "spreadsheets in space" affair than it already is. How will it be possible to project and plan with any certainty under this system?



You wont have to put all this in a spreadsheet. Pretty sure you can click on a BP and see the costs--i.e. the math will be done for you and a final number in terms of whatever it will cost to run the type of job you are interested.

The reason, I suspect, for the math here is so that people can run numbers, get some ideas, and see if anything looks completely daft. In some regards your spreadsheet might get simpler...instead of having a bunch of junk in there for imputed POS fuel costs for various industry things you do, you can instead just switch to a station (if it is more economical) and not worry about that part of your spreadsheet.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online