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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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Crappeshotte
Sehmosh Industrial Security Inc
#641 - 2011-12-02 11:34:27 UTC
Ahrman Vanaheim wrote:
...those complaining, probably don't understand that this is a mess that CCP can't back down from. They aren't going to give up their only, rather tenuous, link for EVE to DUST and possibly the millions invested in that game by reverting to the old system, despite enraging large numbers of High/Low/WH PI industrialists. DUST with no EVE link, though possible, would be pointless. We can only hope at this stage that DUST isn't a complete flop. I for one am interested in at least trying it.

Good Luck CCP, I just hope this calculated gamble works and you don't lose more from this than you gain from DUST.



Just out of interest, is DUST going to permit combat or other offensive operations to be conducted against PI facilities in hisec? Is DUST going to be subject to the same rules of engagement as everything else in hisec, or are Concord going to have no jurisdiction on planet surfaces?
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#642 - 2011-12-02 11:42:12 UTC
Crappeshotte wrote:
Just out of interest, is DUST going to permit combat or other offensive operations to be conducted against PI facilities in hisec? Is DUST going to be subject to the same rules of engagement as everything else in hisec, or are Concord going to have no jurisdiction on planet surfaces?

Nobody outside CCP knows. Perhaps not even them. But some of us are guessing DUST will be based around customs offices in some way. Perhaps via a surface equivalent to the CO.

PI installations are so cheap, nobody is going to pay Dusties to destroy or defend them, so they will need something like the POCOs, that aggregates several PI colonies into a single valuable target.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Zedia Zhane
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#643 - 2011-12-02 11:50:55 UTC
From the original blog:
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2899

" The Customs Office Gantry itself is a 9600 m3 compact structure that is manufactured in assembly lines in stations (for exact materials, see the Material Shopping List) and must be anchored no further than 100,000 km from the planet."

I just tried to anchor a Gantry 86,000 km from a planet, and got a message saying it can't be anchored more than 5,666 km from the planet. I suppose, technically, it is true that it "must be anchored no further than 100,000 km from the planet." But that statement is, at best, highly misleading.

Also, there's a known bug with Amarr outposts.


"The taxes you paid before can be translated into this new system, and that would equal 5% tax in a player owned customs office. So, if you set the tax to 5% you will pay the exact same as before." (boldface emphasis is mine).

So changing it by a factor of 100x apparently qualifies as "the exact same." In the way that 10 is exactly the same as 1,000.


Note that neither of these "facts" was amended, clarified, or changed in this dev blog (at http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3075 )
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#644 - 2011-12-02 11:51:29 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Crappeshotte wrote:
Just out of interest, is DUST going to permit combat or other offensive operations to be conducted against PI facilities in hisec? Is DUST going to be subject to the same rules of engagement as everything else in hisec, or are Concord going to have no jurisdiction on planet surfaces?

Nobody outside CCP knows. Perhaps not even them. But some of us are guessing DUST will be based around customs offices in some way. Perhaps via a surface equivalent to the CO.

PI installations are so cheap, nobody is going to pay Dusties to destroy or defend them, so they will need something like the POCOs, that aggregates several PI colonies into a single valuable target.


LOL if they make it possible to bombard a planet with titans (DD) or Dreads I'll just f!uck!ng doomsday these stup!d DUST f!u!cks all the time... Killing their fun will be my joy:)
Crappeshotte
Sehmosh Industrial Security Inc
#645 - 2011-12-02 11:52:48 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Crappeshotte wrote:
Just out of interest, is DUST going to permit combat or other offensive operations to be conducted against PI facilities in hisec? Is DUST going to be subject to the same rules of engagement as everything else in hisec, or are Concord going to have no jurisdiction on planet surfaces?

Nobody outside CCP knows. Perhaps not even them. But some of us are guessing DUST will be based around customs offices in some way. Perhaps via a surface equivalent to the CO.

PI installations are so cheap, nobody is going to pay Dusties to destroy or defend them, so they will need something like the POCOs, that aggregates several PI colonies into a single valuable target.



PI installations might be cheap to us, flying spaceships, but to groundhogs they might represent major assets. And to keep losing them would be a pain to me: someone knocks out my command centre and the whole caboodle goes pop, along with all the commodities I had stored there.

I and my alts run sixteen hisec planets, and only three of them have other players' installations on them. Given the fracas the new taxes have caused, I would imagine hisec PI will become less popular rather than more. Aggregating PI colonies is not going to be easy. I would say the tax changes are a step back for DUST, unless CCP have more plans for planets...
CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#646 - 2011-12-02 11:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Hey guys.

Some of you have rightly pointed out that this last tax rate change should have been better communicated and I just want to clear that part up. We did have a plan to communicate it properly and the Game Designers had the text ready, but then the ball got dropped between us in the middle of the messaging storm prior to launch. I guess that one's on me.

I know that "I was totally gonna" doesn't make up for not doing something, but I want to extend my apologies for any inconvenience and confusion this caused.

The designers will probably jump in and take some questions on the mechanics.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard
Dario Kaelenter
ACME HARDWARE
Exxitium
#647 - 2011-12-02 12:24:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dario Kaelenter
CCP Guard wrote:
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:

---

The higher PI taxes are deliberate.

We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.

The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.

With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.

By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.

For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Regards
CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi


I think the changes are reasonable in a game play context as it does add more control and influence back into players hands.

When PI came along Trade items to fuel POSs jumped up to 10 times their old NPC costs .... cause they could.
People could have sold them lower tho chose not to as they were able to sell them at the levels they could easy enough.
This may indicate that there was not enough supply in the market.
The only actual costs if u were working from extractor up were the taxes and time which can be tricky to put into isk terms

I only started PI as a way to feed POSs and keep the cost of making T2 items lower. As I understand many other industry POS owners also did rather than pay much higher market rates resulting in running costs that would need to be passed on thru more expensive tech 2/3 products.

I still see people using hi sec planets mainly to make small quantities of PI product for hi sec POS or as factory planets once they get over the price shock and pass it on.
Also Lo sec planets in most cases have more reasonable quantities of resources tho people may change their colony set ups to avoid unnecessary export/import.

The ones that will benefit better would be those that have secure systems or good support on call and can then set up their own POCOs in lo or null sec. They can then set minimal tax rates and may one day recoup the cost of their POCO while also enjoying lower taxes as before.

The idea of tying the tax to market values is reasonable though where CCP went wrong way taking the November market average rather than say the past 3 or 6 mths average mainly as in November prices were already on the rise due to advance stocking up and speculating on items due to changes planned for POS Fuel blocks and also this PI office change.

Robotics for example were trading at about 45K a unit June/July/Aug and started trading up around 50 to 52K again in sept but come pre patch announcements and in Oct/Nov they started heading to almost 70k a unit and now about 85K a unit (highest ever since PI was first introduced)

This month's prices for Tier 4 items are also thru the roof mainly due to the extra demand for them to build POCOs

If taxes continually adjust based on just the previous month's average then anomalies like these will make it much harder to encourage prices down as ppl will be still adjusting up to compensate for their increased costs.

Basing the tax on quarterly (if not 6 monthly) averages would therefor make more sense.
Jade Nexia
CHON
THE R0NIN
#648 - 2011-12-02 12:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Nexia
I'm stick with my feel that CCP has no clue about PI and how they did setup planetary resources.

I'm pure P1 producer who sell it to market. I now with 17% tax does pay daily 1mil per planet for export. I operate at rich planets in C1,C2 and C3 WH with direct connection into HigSec (static exists). I do operate with 9 characters on 45 planets each character is setup in own WH-space.

I harvest each planet in WH-space no longer than 20 days, because planets goes depleted! Notice this planet get depleted after 20 days! Production per head goes from 300 under 200. Even I do move my extractor or rebuild whole site every 5 to 6 days I got planet depleted after 20 days. My skills in Planetology and Advanced Planetology are on level 5 and all 9 characters. I must leave WH and find another one WH with not used planets at least once per month.

Per whole my harvesting period I would only pay up to 25 mil per planet when I do accept 17% Interbus Taxes. I have no reason to put up any POCO worth 200mil simply because I can't pack it up when I don't use planet anymore.

20 day WH cycle cost

  • 300 mil inital cost
  • 1bil exporting taxes
  • ------------
  • 1,3 bil ISK total


profit is 5 bil (from sale) - 1,3 bil (cost) = 3,7 bil. BTW this calculation include new taxes, I had same profit before new taxes as after taxes, because simply market prices goes up factoring new taxes. So I don't cry river I just pointing it up. My profit would be same meay be better, because a lot people really quit PI as may be I would too.

setting up 45 PoCO would cost 9 bil, profit would be -5,3 bil

I can't produce PI with all 9 characters at same 5 planets because then planets goes dry in one week at all. Nobody from CCP really did realize that, even most rich planets in WH space can't support harvetsing by more than single person per 20 days. If I mention harvesting I do mean real intensive drilling with 1 day 45 minutes cycle to archieve cycle per harvester 15 minutes with 10 heads and 10 basic factories to reprocess all harvested materials to P1 in 24 hours cycle. Planet goes dry after 20 days and I'm unable to find any spot to feed up 10 factories afterall. When my resource production fall under 50k raw materials/hour I must abandon planet.

Resource regen is pure trues sec based so -1.0 planets have best resource regen and even these planets goes dry after 20 days. In 0.0 where average true sec are -0.4 is not possible even maintain setup with 10 factories and one harvester to keep these 10 factories up and running. If there would be POCO then that planet would be shared by more than 1 person and planet goes even dry sooner and is impossible to feed 10 factories with raw materials.

Planet with POCO and harvested by more than one person runing multiple sites would not produce enough resources to generate enough profit to justify time hastle with PI. Not to mention it is true pain to operate (setup via) clicking everything on planet. It was and still remains only poor man "job" in EVE.

To sum it up:


  • Nobody did count factor that planet has limited resource regens, so more people using planet mean less profit for everyone. Implied more people operating on harvest planet doesn't mean faster POCO investment return.
  • Only production planets having POCOs will pay up back POCO, but as I know one production planet need harvest P1 materials at least from 4 to 5 planets.


At end I have no problem with POCOs because I see that in my WH space these will not be replaced anytime soon. Anyway I stop my operations for now (abandoned all 45 planets) and sitting on my stockpile of P1 producst now worth around 20 bil and I'm sure it will be doubled may be trippled in next two weeks. Cheers CCP Omen, you really got back in old CCP track, we have always right. But customers vote with theirs legs, you should remember it.

I will see if POCOs will get replaced in WH space or not. If POCOs get replaced or Interbus COs will get destroyed I will stop doing PI. I will not resub 4 accounts and will have only remaining 2 active with 60 to 80 bil buffer to play with it. I wouldn't loose only who will loose will be CCP, even I do buy PLEXes these plexes still someone did buy for real money from CCP. I don't expect that people in WH-space would like to share theirs planets with me.

BTW DUST is just "hype", because who does play PS3 games would play it not more than few months. Good new game on PS3 come out to market every few months. As oposite EVE does exists since 2003 I never saw any kind of game on consoles to sold and be played so long. You shooting own legs with this aproach and changing maket focus on things called "hype".
CCP Omen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#649 - 2011-12-02 12:35:20 UTC
Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.

We are not the “old CCP” that try to trick you, I’d argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.

Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.

P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market)
P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market)
P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market)
P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market)
P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)

The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like “no tax” - > “tax”.

It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.

One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog here.

The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.

I will continue to answer your questions in this thread.
Regards
CCP Omen

Senior Game Designer Team True Grit EVE/DUST Gameplay Liaison
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#650 - 2011-12-02 12:43:16 UTC
Zedia Zhane wrote:
Note that neither of these "facts" was amended, clarified, or changed in this dev blog (at http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3075 )


Both of these changes were made after the second dev blog.

The exact anchoring restrictions are on the wiki page and I highly recommend players who are setting up their own customs office have a read through the information there.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

Also the construction at Amarr outposts bug has been fixed internally and will be deployed to TQ early next week.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Jade Nexia
CHON
THE R0NIN
#651 - 2011-12-02 12:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Nexia
"CCP Omen" wrote:

Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.

We are not the “old CCP” that try to trick you, I’d argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.

Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.

P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market)
P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market)
P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market)
P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market)
P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)

The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like “no tax” - > “tax”.

It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.

One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog

The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.

I will continue to answer your questions in this thread.
Regards
CCP Omen


Dear Omen. You did pick as taxation base most expensive PI producs and bad time, after announce of POCO prices hyperinflate. Did you moticed that 80% products are soled under 50% peice markup of your picked goods? Like Electrolytes? I' do my PI harvesting over 7 months and average price for electolytes was around 300 not 450. Not to mention other comodities like bacteria with average price around 80?

That just for my part of P1 producs because I never was interested in higher PI producs, because is just pain in ass to operate PI, setup factory, route product, route materials to factory etc. there is no easy interface for PI. I think that will be target when you announced changes in PI, to simplify UI make it less clicky. Posibility to setup more factories per one click, automatic production routing like automatic feeding with resources to factory from launchpad. Posibility to use and move goods to Storage from Launchpad not by using expeditions, reuse of command center. ETC. PI need whole big rework, but you did pick up completely unnecessary thing like POCO. Please learn to listen, right?
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#652 - 2011-12-02 12:47:31 UTC
The fact that you cannot retrieve and redeploy PI hardware is a major issue. POCO doesn't feel like an investment if you cannot take it down.

Compared to this, in POS reaction business all hardware that is used can be relocated and reused. You pay for the JF fuel and for the POS running costs, but relocation never means loss of production hardware.

Fix this for PI and I'm sure people are a lot more happy putting up ISKies for POCO hardware (and taking risks in low/null sec with command centers).

Also with POSes you can abandon the hardware "dead in space" for later restart, with PI you are limited by number of planets you can have command centers on, so you cannot abandon CCs/factories and set up elsewhere, only to return to the initial place at a later date.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#653 - 2011-12-02 12:58:06 UTC
Omen,

I advocated and support the tax change, because otherwise the POCO feature would have been dead in the water. It was a very welcome reaction.

However, I think basing it on the november prices was a minor oversight. By then, prices had already spiked due to speculation caused by your own devblog. Because it was speculation, and not an actual market adjustment, it didn't affect all items equally.

The effect of this is minor, but it does unbalance how much it costs to export an item vs how it costs to export the materials to build it, for example.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Dario Kaelenter
ACME HARDWARE
Exxitium
#654 - 2011-12-02 13:06:42 UTC
CCP Omen wrote:
Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.

We are not the “old CCP” that try to trick you, I’d argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.

Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.

P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market)
P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market)
P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market)
P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market)
P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)

The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like “no tax” - > “tax”.

It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.

One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog here.

The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.

I will continue to answer your questions in this thread.
Regards
CCP Omen



Per my previous post basing the tax on market values still seems like a good move going forward tho I think the heart of the problem is the rate picked/calculated as the Market Rate in setting the new taxes.

You unfortunately picked a point where prices had already been impacted on by the specter of this change and the PI Fuel Block change so had already reacted upwards a fair amount.

Prior to these announcements Robotics had settled down below 50K isk a unit and Broadcast node around 900 K so again I feel it would have been more diligent to have opted for a quarterly average market value to pick as the base for the tax.

Possibly also having the rate slowly increase to this new rate over the course of a week could have reduced the sudden shock factor !?
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#655 - 2011-12-02 13:09:47 UTC
There seems to be a problem with setting the tax rate on these damned things. I set it to 0% to avoid screwing over my allies in the hole and after every downtime it's back to 5%. No one else has the authority to mess with them, so there appears to be a bug.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
disasteur
disasterous industries
#656 - 2011-12-02 13:10:42 UTC
(The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. )


so making isk is ok as long as there a lot of pew pew in it?

FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time
MirrorGod
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#657 - 2011-12-02 13:14:29 UTC
An excellent and needed change. This is another step towards making low-sec and 0.0 more populated. I look forward to seeing what kind of action this brings

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6070/6122338654_85e9bbfca9_z.jpg
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#658 - 2011-12-02 13:20:03 UTC
MirrorGod wrote:
An excellent and needed change. This is another step towards making low-sec and 0.0 more populated. I look forward to seeing what kind of action this brings


How is driving non-PvP oriented people out of doing their PI in low sec going to help increase the population there?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#659 - 2011-12-02 13:26:49 UTC
I really like this change because the manner in which it was enacted ended up punishing heavily the small-time PI players and granting huge fortunes to those with the isk to speculate on the market. It's like it was insider trading but you didn't have to be 'inside', you just had to understand that CCP would mess it up.
Randomus Namus
Perkone
Caldari State
#660 - 2011-12-02 13:32:37 UTC
Thank you, Omen, for providing the opportunity for the wonderous hordes of space peasants to display their ignorance, stupidity, and desire for unfounded statistics and pointless whining for my entertainment.

P.s. Thanks for both a new isk sink and a large shock to the market. It's quite enjoyable considering the wholesale lack of economic understanding present in highsec.

P.p.s. It must be profit, your time is ~free~