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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#321 - 2014-04-29 17:51:13 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Research costs scale at higher levels though,

I cannot find anything in the dev blog that supports that statement. Please help me find the text that says going from ME9% to ME10% will cost more than going from ME0% to ME1%. Yes, it *takes* longer, but as best as I can tell job *duration* is not a factor on the job cost formula.

MDD

I think greyscale mentioned in this thread that the cost is multiplied by that same amount (about 2.38x I believe) each level, though that is not in the blog


Uh... yeah. I think this fell into the gap between the two blogs - I was writing both at the same time and I think I lost track of which blog I was covering this in (ie, neither).

Research costs for higher levels scale with research time.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#322 - 2014-04-29 17:52:03 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Correction: 2% of product value, not of BPO value. Any work where the output is a Covetor BP (original or copy) will be keyed to 2% of the price of a Covetor.


So you deliberately cause an infinite loop? Because, as pointed out earlier: Original Covetor prod + 2% == Market Price -> Next Covetor prod + 4% == Next Covetor Market price -> Double Next Covetor Prod +6% = Double next covetor market price ...

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
#323 - 2014-04-29 17:53:01 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

Not going through all your math, but I suspect it's broken. All jobs are based on a % of the output. It assumes BPC value is 2% of BPO value. So it's a cost % of the BPC value. So, (being too lazy to verify your origin numbers) that covetor copy would be closer to 400k installation cost at the low end (presumably per licensed run.)

What is not clear is how T2 BPC values are being calculated, since the BPOs are not traded on the market, but the cost of the invention job would be a % of that new BPC output.


the dev stated it's not based on the bpo cost, but based on the mod it would produce... so 2% per run of a t1 railgun.

the dev i quoted first, said that the 2% would apply per copy ... not per job. If that's true, that's 6 t1 railguns worth of cost for the job, to make a 300 run copy. it's that simple. that's about 12m, as-is today. just to make a max-run COPY.

and the dev, when i quoted the covetor, clearly said that it wasnt based on the bpo cost (otherwise a covetor copy would be 40m).

SOOOoo, i'm still a bit lost myself, but, i'm thinking making copies for invention is going to be outrageous if it's 2% of t1 mod cost per run.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#324 - 2014-04-29 17:58:03 UTC
Out of curiosity:

How many design/development hours have been put into the summer industry revamp? And divided between how many people?

And regarding input for POS ideas:

Make each module of a common type after the first one grant a cost multiplier of e.g. 0.85 for the jobs it can support. For special modules like the Hya lab make the factor even better (or grant a huge time bonus, etc...). This would somehow simulate the increased ability of the POS to handle a certain type of job in a much increased efficiency. And of cource THIS, as stated times and times again...

And considering standings, i still like the idea of affecting POS fuel consumption, do it! ;)
Audrey Koshka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#325 - 2014-04-29 17:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Audrey Koshka
Weaselior wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
ME bonus for outpost.... Did they just convert an invented ME-4 to ME 1, cutting the advantage BPOs have over invention to like 9% instead of 60%?

No: this is "new ME", 5%

Old ME-4 gets converted into ME-40%, which gets brought back down to ME-35%


Nevermind then, not nearly as impressive as I thought, I see why you're feeling underwhelmed. If it was 5 'old' ME, that would be a really strong bonus for invention.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#326 - 2014-04-29 17:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Correction: 2% of product value, not of BPO value. Any work where the output is a Covetor BP (original or copy) will be keyed to 2% of the price of a Covetor.


A covetor costs ~30m isk. 2% of 30m is 600k.

I currently value the production cost of a Covetor BPC at 115k isk.
mkint
#327 - 2014-04-29 18:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Fal Dara wrote:
mkint wrote:

Not going through all your math, but I suspect it's broken. All jobs are based on a % of the output. It assumes BPC value is 2% of BPO value. So it's a cost % of the BPC value. So, (being too lazy to verify your origin numbers) that covetor copy would be closer to 400k installation cost at the low end (presumably per licensed run.)

What is not clear is how T2 BPC values are being calculated, since the BPOs are not traded on the market, but the cost of the invention job would be a % of that new BPC output.


the dev stated it's not based on the bpo cost, but based on the mod it would produce... so 2% per run of a t1 railgun.

the dev i quoted first, said that the 2% would apply per copy ... not per job. If that's true, that's 6 t1 railguns worth of cost for the job, to make a 300 run copy. it's that simple. that's about 12m, as-is today. just to make a max-run COPY.

and the dev, when i quoted the covetor, clearly said that it wasnt based on the bpo cost (otherwise a covetor copy would be 40m).

SOOOoo, i'm still a bit lost myself, but, i'm thinking making copies for invention is going to be outrageous if it's 2% of t1 mod cost per run.

I still suspect the math is wrong... So it assumes the output value is 2% of the product value (rather than BPO value) which should make it even cheaper. From that 2% BPC output value, then you pay your 1% to 14% of that to run a copy job.

edit: so using griznit's number above that a covetor BPC worth 600k for the sake of cost calculations, the job cost would be 1-15% depending on facilities, so 6k-90k.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
#328 - 2014-04-29 18:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Fal Dara
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Correction: 2% of product value, not of BPO value. Any work where the output is a Covetor BP (original or copy) will be keyed to 2% of the price of a Covetor.


A covetor costs ~30m isk. 2% of 30m is 600k.





exactly what i posted... so a max run covetor BPC costs 6m to simply MAKE.

and a max run 425mm rail bpc would be about 11 or 12m. (adding 22-24m to the cost of inventing a 10 run print)....

or does this ... start the 5% thing kicking in? 5% of 11m for a 300 run copy?

is that whay they're trying to say?
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#329 - 2014-04-29 18:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Arana Mirelin
Fal Dara wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

Not going through all your math, but I suspect it's broken. All jobs are based on a % of the output. It assumes BPC value is 2% of BPO value. So it's a cost % of the BPC value. So, (being too lazy to verify your origin numbers) that covetor copy would be closer to 400k installation cost at the low end (presumably per licensed run.)

What is not clear is how T2 BPC values are being calculated, since the BPOs are not traded on the market, but the cost of the invention job would be a % of that new BPC output.


the dev stated it's not based on the bpo cost, but based on the mod it would produce... so 2% per run of a t1 railgun.

the dev i quoted first, said that the 2% would apply per copy ... not per job. If that's true, that's 6 t1 railguns worth of cost for the job, to make a 300 run copy. it's that simple. that's about 12m, as-is today. just to make a max-run COPY.

and the dev, when i quoted the covetor, clearly said that it wasnt based on the bpo cost (otherwise a covetor copy would be 40m).

SOOOoo, i'm still a bit lost myself, but, i'm thinking making copies for invention is going to be outrageous if it's 2% of t1 mod cost per run.


You guys are doing step 1, then leaving off the rest. That is the base price for the blueprint, which is then multiplied by the square root of the star system value, so assume 1 to 15 percent of that, then modified by station multiplier and the rest. It will not end up at 12m for that max run copy.

Only part I'm having trouble figuring at the moment is the multiple run bonus. I wish that had been given as a better example.

Edited to correct broken quotes.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#330 - 2014-04-29 18:03:05 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
The T2 multiple run discount may be irritating to people as it's more money for the t2bpoholder, but it doesn't actually affect anyone else like the copy issue did. No more units get produced so it's not a problem for inventors.

Except that the multiple run discount enjoyed by the BPO owner lowers his production cost versus the BPC owner. CCP should not be buffing T2 BPO ownership.

MDD
Proton Power
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#331 - 2014-04-29 18:04:29 UTC
Anyone able to answer if this is correct?

JF Build -

Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on a freighter (20mil?)
Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on freighter (20mil?)
Invent 2 jobs of Freighter to get 1 BPC if I am lucky today, 2% on 2 Invention Jobs on 5bil isk ship = 200mil, 100mil each
Produce T1 Capital Comps for T1 Freighter, say 3% system tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T1 Freighter, 10% tax minus some system bonus's so say 3% tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T2 Components for Jump Freighter (4bil * same 3% tax = 120mil Extra)
Produce JF (6bil * same 3% tax = 180mil extra)

JF now costs 600mil Isk more isk to produce? This is all basic numbers based on 3% tax (Not sure if 3% is reasoanble, don't understand how that works 100% yet)

Am I missing something?
Don Aubaris
#332 - 2014-04-29 18:06:59 UTC
This is just so silly. It makes me sad.Sad

So you simplify it all to attract more people into industry, research, ...
And then you come up with something like this???
You need to be a bloody accountant to make sense of it all.

Honestly, no one at CCP asked you guys 'are you kidding?'
The guy with the common sense must be one of those that have left the company.

This is what you get when you twist reality to suit your own needs.

Just keep it simple and realistic :

* A station/pos/... can only have a max-number of jobs instead of that infinite garbage idea.
* if you want more jobs, then you need to increase the workforce.
* you can get an extra slot for 1 (or multiples of it) month(s) by delivering a care-package containing food, cattle, clothing.... PI- stuff that the workers consume A bit like a people-fuel block instead of POS-fuel block.
* the workers get payed depending on the activity of the station. The more jobs the more you have to pay.
* Player owned slots (POS,...) can be rented out (with use of a customs module so the renters don't need access nor can they be robbed)
* in NPC stations you pay a tax (in function of standing) on top of it.

Voila. Clear. Sensible. Increases player interaction. increases value of PI. ... And you can leave the accountant in the office.

PS : And I want to congratulate you in succeeding in writing this blog without the word 'POS'.
A real accomplishment.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2014-04-29 18:07:56 UTC
DEFANDER wrote:
Why not make the tax grow the more jobs of THAT SPECIFIC nature are installed in THAT ONE station, instead of using such a formula.


Because tracking it at the solar system is easier. Less data points to track. Ease of implementation is ALWAYS a huge factor in software design.

Then there is the issue of exploitation. What if I just unanchored, then re-anchored the POS? Reset the cost? Track it moon by moon to avid this manipulation by making me move the POS to a new location? They want to move away from the whole POS tied to a moon limitation eventually.



I would love to see a statement from CCP as to the thinking behind the changes.


I suspect the cost based began as a way to remove ISK from the game. We've removed sinks in the form of POS fuel, nanite paste, pos modules. They need some way to drain ISK back out of the game.

I have created new toons and run tutorials just to see the changes. There were times I could not do the industry tutorial because I could not find an open lab slot. As the player base continues to grow, that would only become worse. I understand the desire to move to an unlimited slot paradigm.

And certainly a new UI is an excellent idea!

I think that where things went wrong, is where they always go wrong in agile development. Product management is INSANELY important, but also eliminated by most agile development companies. Agile is supposed to mean Just In Time requirements and design. For too many companies, it becomes "no A&D. Hack something together, get feedback, slap in a quick fix"

Well, we're a month from release, and OHHHH the feedback is coming!
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#334 - 2014-04-29 18:08:48 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Correction: 2% of product value, not of BPO value. Any work where the output is a Covetor BP (original or copy) will be keyed to 2% of the price of a Covetor.


A covetor costs ~30m isk. 2% of 30m is 600k.

I currently value the production cost of a Covetor BPC at 115k isk.


The base price is 2% or 600K.

However, that price has to multiplied by the square root of the fraction of global job hours. The highest system has a multiplier of 0.15, so the costs is actually 90,000 isk.

Then you look at system facilities multiplier too. For example, if the system facilities each grant a 0.95% savings and there are 4 such facilities you'd get another multiplier of 0.814506 which would drop it too 73,305 isk.
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
#335 - 2014-04-29 18:09:06 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
Anyone able to answer if this is correct?

JF Build -

Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on a freighter (20mil?)
Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on freighter (20mil?)
Invent 2 jobs of Freighter to get 1 BPC if I am lucky today, 2% on 2 Invention Jobs on 5bil isk ship = 200mil, 100mil each
Produce T1 Capital Comps for T1 Freighter, say 3% system tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T1 Freighter, 10% tax minus some system bonus's so say 3% tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T2 Components for Jump Freighter (4bil * same 3% tax = 120mil Extra)
Produce JF (6bil * same 3% tax = 180mil extra)

JF now costs 600mil Isk more isk to produce? This is all basic numbers based on 3% tax (Not sure if 3% is reasoanble, don't understand how that works 100% yet)

Am I missing something?


i think, MAYBE, the thing we're missing (me first) is that the invention cost up there ... is 20% .. right, but then that 20% is multipled by the 5% tax thing, or system tax (7%?) so it's really only 5% of 20m ...

i didnt see if that's true, and even as devs reply to me, that's not a thing they say--but some players are insisting that's true.

so they're either right, or not seeing it like i do..
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#336 - 2014-04-29 18:12:02 UTC
mkint wrote:
Querns wrote:
Tora Hamaji wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Some general points:

- On "we don't know yet", this is a natural consequence of getting blogs out earlier rather than later. We can wait until we know everything, but then there's no time to make changes. Right now we're releasing blogs for things that are "mostly" done designing, in that the core stuff is solid and in implementation but a lot of the consequences are still being tidied up.

- More specifically, starbases. I'm being vague in no small part because this is something we're having continuing conversations about but we haven't really nailed down our approach yet, or figured out what will end up being possible in the time available.

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.



Simple changes:

Most Character operations are 10 or 11 slot based, so why not make a few pos mods which are 11 slot based?

Maybe even larger size ones with 22 or 33 slots?

also give them appropriately large hangars so that we don't have to search through 20 pos mods with divisions each.

These mods can also be split by operations instead of being jacks of all trades. I am very fine with a "copying lab" and "invention lab".

That's very important at least for manufacturing/copying/invention as those are the most used.

they don't have to be 100% fine tuned on balance, 80% is good enough, but this is necessary at least for this release.

Slots are going away. There will be no more slots.

Patch day sure is going to be a charlie-foxtrot, ain't it? Gonna be hilarious. Can somebody in the GM department please please please keep track of the petition count regarding this changes on expansion day? Maybe make a "best of" compilation for the particularly hilarious ones? Forums should be pretty hilarious at least.


The rage quit that day will be large, and just get larger as the months roll by, and the T2 invention buff for null is added in the fall, plus the other buffs the dev's "are not sure about yet" get implemented.
StinGer ShoGuN
Pragmatic Kernel
Shadow Cartel
#337 - 2014-04-29 18:12:23 UTC
OK guys cool, but huuuuu. What about people doing industry in low sec AND NOT in FW ??

Shall I read a "STFU, we dont' care about you guys" here or what ? It's gonna be more expensive than now, and I won't have the FW bonuses. Whooah ! \o/ My life is cool in low sec, I love it, great !
mkint
#338 - 2014-04-29 18:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Fal Dara wrote:
Proton Power wrote:
Anyone able to answer if this is correct?

JF Build -

Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on a freighter (20mil?)
Produce BPC for Freighter, get charged 2% tax on freighter (20mil?)
Invent 2 jobs of Freighter to get 1 BPC if I am lucky today, 2% on 2 Invention Jobs on 5bil isk ship = 200mil, 100mil each
Produce T1 Capital Comps for T1 Freighter, say 3% system tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T1 Freighter, 10% tax minus some system bonus's so say 3% tax (30mil Extra)
Produce T2 Components for Jump Freighter (4bil * same 3% tax = 120mil Extra)
Produce JF (6bil * same 3% tax = 180mil extra)

JF now costs 600mil Isk more isk to produce? This is all basic numbers based on 3% tax (Not sure if 3% is reasoanble, don't understand how that works 100% yet)

Am I missing something?


i think, MAYBE, the thing we're missing (me first) is that the invention cost up there ... is 20% .. right, but then that 20% is multipled by the 5% tax thing, or system tax (7%?) so it's really only 5% of 20m ...

i didnt see if that's true, and even as devs reply to me, that's not a thing they say--but some players are insisting that's true.

so they're either right, or not seeing it like i do..

Same issues...
devblog wrote:

just for the purposes of pricing jobs, blueprints are assumed to be worth 2% of the value of whatever they build

That 2% isn't your install costs. It's the assumed value of the output blueprint, the value of which is what the job costs are based on. The very last section of the devblog covers the typical spread of the job cost %, which seems to range from 1% to 15%.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#339 - 2014-04-29 18:20:19 UTC
Ok, What about DUST? You remeber the bonuses you get for your ally's POS over your ally's planet? Cause i don't. Anyway, is there plans for DUST control of a system to affect our taxes there? because having the planets will affect the available workforce!
HORDES
Avior Resources
Brave Collective
#340 - 2014-04-29 18:20:31 UTC
hope im wrong here but u base tax on bpos 2% of what it makes so if u copy a nyx its going cost a dam lot and as for titans well i dont want to think about it so to make it cheaper use pos mmm ccp said we dont think players be putting high isk bpos as the risk will be high but you dont want us copy in stations u prices us out of that so what else
do we do but to pack up