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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#301 - 2014-04-29 17:32:47 UTC
Dirty Wrench wrote:
Right now I can manufacture an Abaddon for 2332 isk in factory fees. 1000 isk to install + 4*333 (333 isk isk per hour and it takes 4 hours).

So after the wonderful changes it will cost millions of isk to make a single ship in a not so busy system.

In your example you've paid 7,620,000 isk in factory fees.

All this does is jack up the price a manufacturer shoves onto the buyer.

I fail to see any reason to do this. This just drives the price of casual PvP up whilst doing nothing to the actual manufacturers as they are just displacing costs on to the buyer.

Did you really want to see people pay more for stuff they use to actually play the game ?



It also drains that 7 million ISK out of EVE, and the POS and null sec manufacturers may have fees much lower than that (per job, with their fees being rent and POS fuel).


The trick is going to be keeping your POS very busy why making sure no one else is building anything in system.
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
#302 - 2014-04-29 17:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Calorn Marthor
Fal Dara wrote:

to make a single max-run copy of a modual (which is what we all do for inventing), we will be spending 600% of the production cost to do so? and with a ~50% success rate at inventon, that means about 12 moduals cost. for a thing like a 425mm rail, that's 24m isk, to make JUST the bpc for making 10 mods.

so a 425mm rail II would go from 3.5m to 5.9m ... a 170% price jump. This wouldnt even include the new production costs.

Looks to make a LOT of t2 mods 200% more expensive.

CCP, i hate to say it, but i think the modifier for the cost of making copies needs another zero. not 2% of mod cost, but .002.


No. A single max-run-BPC would include 600% of the production cost of a single module. But that does not mean that the Copy job costs six times as much as a Railgun!

It means the job costs (at least this factor of the job cost - the scaling down thing will reduce it again) is six times as high!
But if the job cost to install a manufacturing job ends up being say 3% of the module value in the end, then a max-run copy would be "only" 18% cost of the T1 item.

T1 version is currently at 2m ISK. -> 2 max-run BPCs = 36%*2m ISK = 720k ISK or 72k ISK per resulting T2 module.

(also if you go to a very remote place, it will only cost you six times of nearly zero)
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#303 - 2014-04-29 17:34:48 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Research costs scale at higher levels though,

I cannot find anything in the dev blog that supports that statement. Please help me find the text that says going from ME9% to ME10% will cost more than going from ME0% to ME1%. Yes, it *takes* longer, but as best as I can tell job *duration* is not a factor on the job cost formula.

MDD
Audrey Koshka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#304 - 2014-04-29 17:35:11 UTC
If I understand it correctly, ME +5 in a max Amarr Factory Outpost should be great for producing from invented T2 BPCs, narrowing the profitability gap between invention and T2 BPOs.
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
#305 - 2014-04-29 17:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Fal Dara
getting it now..
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#306 - 2014-04-29 17:35:45 UTC
Calorn Marthor wrote:
Fal Dara wrote:

to make a single max-run copy of a modual (which is what we all do for inventing), we will be spending 600% of the production cost to do so? and with a ~50% success rate at inventon, that means about 12 moduals cost. for a thing like a 425mm rail, that's 24m isk, to make JUST the bpc for making 10 mods.

so a 425mm rail II would go from 3.5m to 5.9m ... a 170% price jump. This wouldnt even include the new production costs.

Looks to make a LOT of t2 mods 200% more expensive.

CCP, i hate to say it, but i think the modifier for the cost of making copies needs another zero. not 2% of mod cost, but .002.


No. A single max-run-BPC would include 600% of the production cost of a single module. But that does not mean that the Copy job costs six times as much as a Railgun!

It means the job costs (at least this factor of the job cost - the scaling down thing will reduce it again) is six times as high!
But if the job cost to install a manufacturing job ends up being say 3% of the module value in the end, then a max-run copy would be "only" 18% cost of the T1 item.

T1 version is currently at 2m ISK. -> 2 max-run BPCs = 36%*2m ISK = 720k ISK or 72k ISK per resulting T2 module.

(also if you go to a very remote place, it will only cost you six times of nearly zero)


it is per bpc, not per number of runs on that BPC

Was asked this morning

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#307 - 2014-04-29 17:35:54 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Research costs scale at higher levels though,

I cannot find anything in the dev blog that supports that statement. Please help me find the text that says going from ME9% to ME10% will cost more than going from ME0% to ME1%. Yes, it *takes* longer, but as best as I can tell job *duration* is not a factor on the job cost formula.

MDD

I think greyscale mentioned in this thread that the cost is multiplied by that same amount (about 2.38x I believe) each level, though that is not in the blog

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2014-04-29 17:37:14 UTC
Audrey Koshka wrote:
If I understand it correctly, ME +5 in a max Amarr Factory Outpost should be great for producing from invented T2 BPCs, narrowing the profitability gap between invention and T2 BPOs.


nope, producing from a T2 BPO in a +5ME outpost is also pretty profitable
Proton Power
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#309 - 2014-04-29 17:37:20 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
I am VERY, VERY concerned about the ME bonus to amarr/minmatar outposts. A BPO that would take me years to research to perfect, can be produced in null outpost for 1/10,000th the research time because they only need to be at ME 5 for perfect?


you can't make titans in stations


But according to CCP bonuses from stations are system wide... so unless the station bonus for the build cost doesn't apply to the system then your point doesnt matter.


TBH titan wise this does nto bother me much. Titans can only be produced in 0.0, what does bother me is take items that can be moved easy from 0.0 to Empire for sale (Jump Freighters), ME-1 to ME+4 will make a huge difference and put most empire JF Builders out of Business.

Most other ships are not a Major concern, a lot of effort to jump them back and forth, fuel and such. Modules can be a slight issue, but not many T1 modules cost enough isk and require a stuipd amount of research to bother me nor most others.

T2 Invention is where 0.0 will have significant improvemetns with the +5 bonus.
Tora Hamaji
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#310 - 2014-04-29 17:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tora Hamaji
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Some general points:

- On "we don't know yet", this is a natural consequence of getting blogs out earlier rather than later. We can wait until we know everything, but then there's no time to make changes. Right now we're releasing blogs for things that are "mostly" done designing, in that the core stuff is solid and in implementation but a lot of the consequences are still being tidied up.

- More specifically, starbases. I'm being vague in no small part because this is something we're having continuing conversations about but we haven't really nailed down our approach yet, or figured out what will end up being possible in the time available.

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.



Simple changes:

Most Character operations are 10 or 11 slot based, so why not make a few pos mods which are 11 slot based?

Maybe even larger size ones with 22 or 33 slots?

also give them appropriately large hangars so that we don't have to search through 20 pos mods with divisions each.

These mods can also be split by operations instead of being jacks of all trades. I am very fine with a "copying lab" and "invention lab".

That's very important at least for manufacturing/copying/invention as those are the most used.

they don't have to be 100% fine tuned on balance, 80% is good enough, but this is necessary at least for this release.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#311 - 2014-04-29 17:38:36 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
As a followup to the problem with a fully upgraded amarr station that costs 60-80b (and remember this has no refine advantage over a highsec pos, maxes out at 52% since all other upgrade slots are taken) being only as good as a small highsec pos that costs 100-300m: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4526547

Transport costs are going up 50% (at least), which throws a serious wrench into a lot of the chance for nullsec to compete: imported minerals just got more expensive, importing non-local moon materials likewise, making it make even more sense to import the smaller finished products instead of the raw materials. With no cost advantage over a highsec pos sitting one jump from jita, there's nothing you can do to make up those transport costs.



Lovely, isn't it? They give with one hand, and rip it off you with the other. They force High sec into POS, but make it impossible to use POS. That's CCP at its best... Roll


I'm not sure i understand the transport issue. Is this just for moon goo?

I thought mineral compression via build/melt was being replaced with ore compression arrays at POS. Instead of importing modules and melting, you will import compressed ores and refine.

Are you looking for some kind of "compressed moon goo" array/output?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#312 - 2014-04-29 17:40:06 UTC
Tora Hamaji wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Some general points:

- On "we don't know yet", this is a natural consequence of getting blogs out earlier rather than later. We can wait until we know everything, but then there's no time to make changes. Right now we're releasing blogs for things that are "mostly" done designing, in that the core stuff is solid and in implementation but a lot of the consequences are still being tidied up.

- More specifically, starbases. I'm being vague in no small part because this is something we're having continuing conversations about but we haven't really nailed down our approach yet, or figured out what will end up being possible in the time available.

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.



Simple changes:

Most Character operations are 10 or 11 slot based, so why not make a few pos mods which are 11 slot based?

Maybe even larger size ones with 22 or 33 slots?

also give them appropriately large hangars so that we don't have to search through 20 pos mods with divisions each.

These mods can also be split by operations instead of being jacks of all trades. I am very fine with a "copying lab" and "invention lab".

That's very important at least for manufacturing/copying/invention as those are the most used.

they don't have to be 100% fine tuned on balance, 80% is good enough, but this is necessary at least for this release.

Slots are going away. There will be no more slots.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Flay Nardieu
#313 - 2014-04-29 17:40:19 UTC
Ok I understand the costs and tax thing with starbase, I'll explain it for other a little confused. The cost to run a job is the amount you have to pay virtual NPC workers, the tax is what an installation owner charges self or others to use the facility. Nice bit of lore to explain it. So basically no matter where you pay for man-hours of virtual workers.

I still maintain that removing the remote from office ability is very foolish. Why be able to add a tax to use your facility when nobody can use it? I suppose the argument can be made with the removal of slots from everything, leasing access to a POS facility is not needed, EXCEPT it is, particularly in systems without research facilities.

Taking the other Dev-blogs into account as well, their are plenty slick interfaces, snazzy graphics, formulas, and hype. Honestly this isn't a overhaul to improve S&I. This a complete 'F-it it is old, scrap it, pay no mind to what does work as long as we make it pretty and make the input and output model seem remotely the same it is good"

In some ways it is like Windows XP to Vista upgrade scenareo Microsoft had.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#314 - 2014-04-29 17:40:59 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
As a followup to the problem with a fully upgraded amarr station that costs 60-80b (and remember this has no refine advantage over a highsec pos, maxes out at 52% since all other upgrade slots are taken) being only as good as a small highsec pos that costs 100-300m: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4526547

Transport costs are going up 50% (at least), which throws a serious wrench into a lot of the chance for nullsec to compete: imported minerals just got more expensive, importing non-local moon materials likewise, making it make even more sense to import the smaller finished products instead of the raw materials. With no cost advantage over a highsec pos sitting one jump from jita, there's nothing you can do to make up those transport costs.



Lovely, isn't it? They give with one hand, and rip it off you with the other. They force High sec into POS, but make it impossible to use POS. That's CCP at its best... Roll


I'm not sure i understand the transport issue. Is this just for moon goo?

I thought mineral compression via build/melt was being replaced with ore compression arrays at POS. Instead of importing modules and melting, you will import compressed ores and refine.

Are you looking for some kind of "compressed moon goo" array/output?

He's referring to the 50% increase in Jump Freighter fuel costs coming in the summer expansion.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
mkint
#315 - 2014-04-29 17:42:09 UTC
Fal Dara wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I understand the pricing for manufacturing. However, I do not understand the pricing for research: what's the output price? Could you give us some examples of what it would cost to (a)add a level of ME to a bpo (b)Make copies of that bpo or (c) run an invention job?


The "output price" where the output is a blueprint is treated as being 2% of the value of whatever the blueprint produces. It's buried in a paragraph halfway down, that probably could've been clearer.


What about copies: is a 50-run copy equal to 100%? It seems like this makes regular research oddly cheap and copying oddly expensive in relation to one another. I'll have to poke at the formula and see what drops out for the usual sort of stuff though.

Related question: how is this formula resolving the market value of rarely sold (e.g. components) items and never sold (supercaps)? Is it using market prices or is it doing a sort of 'base cost' off the minerals?


It will likely be per-run, so a 50-run copy becomes 100%, yes. Research costs scale at higher levels though, so it probably swings back a bit there.

Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.


I would like to point out, that, to make a copy--a single copy, of a covetor will cost 600k... and a max run (invention) will cost 6m. That's fine, i guess, but that's about 6 TIMES what they go for on contracts. We will adapt.

But, if it's 2% of the BPO cost, we're screwed. It's not, right? because then a covetor copy would cost 40m--more than the ship.

to make a single max-run copy of a modual (which is what we all do for inventing), we will be spending 600% of the production cost to do so? and with a ~50% success rate at inventon, that means about 12 moduals cost. for a thing like a 425mm rail, that's 24m isk, to make JUST the bpc for making 10 mods.

so a 425mm rail II would go from 3.5m to 5.9m ... a 170% price jump. This wouldnt even include the new production costs.

Looks to make a LOT of t2 mods 200% more expensive.

CCP, i hate to say it, but i think the modifier for the cost of making copies needs another zero. not 2% of mod cost, but .002.

Not going through all your math, but I suspect it's broken. All jobs are based on a % of the output. It assumes BPC value is 2% of BPO value. So it's a cost % of the BPC value. So, (being too lazy to verify your origin numbers) that covetor copy would be closer to 400k installation cost at the low end (presumably per licensed run.)

What is not clear is how T2 BPC values are being calculated, since the BPOs are not traded on the market, but the cost of the invention job would be a % of that new BPC output.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#316 - 2014-04-29 17:42:41 UTC
ME bonus for outpost.... Did they just convert an invented ME-4 to ME 1, cutting the advantage BPOs have over invention to like 9% instead of 60%?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2014-04-29 17:45:24 UTC
Querns wrote:

He's referring to the 50% increase in Jump Freighter fuel costs coming in the summer expansion.


YIKES!!!! I'd missed that!

Thanks a ton for the link!


Seems you need a whole alliance just to keep up to date with changes.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#318 - 2014-04-29 17:48:25 UTC
mkint wrote:
Fal Dara wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I understand the pricing for manufacturing. However, I do not understand the pricing for research: what's the output price? Could you give us some examples of what it would cost to (a)add a level of ME to a bpo (b)Make copies of that bpo or (c) run an invention job?


The "output price" where the output is a blueprint is treated as being 2% of the value of whatever the blueprint produces. It's buried in a paragraph halfway down, that probably could've been clearer.


What about copies: is a 50-run copy equal to 100%? It seems like this makes regular research oddly cheap and copying oddly expensive in relation to one another. I'll have to poke at the formula and see what drops out for the usual sort of stuff though.

Related question: how is this formula resolving the market value of rarely sold (e.g. components) items and never sold (supercaps)? Is it using market prices or is it doing a sort of 'base cost' off the minerals?


It will likely be per-run, so a 50-run copy becomes 100%, yes. Research costs scale at higher levels though, so it probably swings back a bit there.

Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.


I would like to point out, that, to make a copy--a single copy, of a covetor will cost 600k... and a max run (invention) will cost 6m. That's fine, i guess, but that's about 6 TIMES what they go for on contracts. We will adapt.

But, if it's 2% of the BPO cost, we're screwed. It's not, right? because then a covetor copy would cost 40m--more than the ship.

to make a single max-run copy of a modual (which is what we all do for inventing), we will be spending 600% of the production cost to do so? and with a ~50% success rate at inventon, that means about 12 moduals cost. for a thing like a 425mm rail, that's 24m isk, to make JUST the bpc for making 10 mods.

so a 425mm rail II would go from 3.5m to 5.9m ... a 170% price jump. This wouldnt even include the new production costs.

Looks to make a LOT of t2 mods 200% more expensive.

CCP, i hate to say it, but i think the modifier for the cost of making copies needs another zero. not 2% of mod cost, but .002.

Not going through all your math, but I suspect it's broken. All jobs are based on a % of the output. It assumes BPC value is 2% of BPO value. So it's a cost % of the BPC value. So, (being too lazy to verify your origin numbers) that covetor copy would be closer to 400k installation cost at the low end (presumably per licensed run.)

What is not clear is how T2 BPC values are being calculated, since the BPOs are not traded on the market, but the cost of the invention job would be a % of that new BPC output.


Correction: 2% of product value, not of BPO value. Any work where the output is a Covetor BP (original or copy) will be keyed to 2% of the price of a Covetor.
mkint
#319 - 2014-04-29 17:48:39 UTC
Querns wrote:
Tora Hamaji wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Some general points:

- On "we don't know yet", this is a natural consequence of getting blogs out earlier rather than later. We can wait until we know everything, but then there's no time to make changes. Right now we're releasing blogs for things that are "mostly" done designing, in that the core stuff is solid and in implementation but a lot of the consequences are still being tidied up.

- More specifically, starbases. I'm being vague in no small part because this is something we're having continuing conversations about but we haven't really nailed down our approach yet, or figured out what will end up being possible in the time available.

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.



Simple changes:

Most Character operations are 10 or 11 slot based, so why not make a few pos mods which are 11 slot based?

Maybe even larger size ones with 22 or 33 slots?

also give them appropriately large hangars so that we don't have to search through 20 pos mods with divisions each.

These mods can also be split by operations instead of being jacks of all trades. I am very fine with a "copying lab" and "invention lab".

That's very important at least for manufacturing/copying/invention as those are the most used.

they don't have to be 100% fine tuned on balance, 80% is good enough, but this is necessary at least for this release.

Slots are going away. There will be no more slots.

Patch day sure is going to be a charlie-foxtrot, ain't it? Gonna be hilarious. Can somebody in the GM department please please please keep track of the petition count regarding this changes on expansion day? Maybe make a "best of" compilation for the particularly hilarious ones? Forums should be pretty hilarious at least.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#320 - 2014-04-29 17:49:47 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
ME bonus for outpost.... Did they just convert an invented ME-4 to ME 1, cutting the advantage BPOs have over invention to like 9% instead of 60%?

No: this is "new ME", 5%

Old ME-4 gets converted into ME-40%, which gets brought back down to ME-35%

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.