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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#181 - 2014-04-29 15:04:56 UTC
Some general points:

- On "we don't know yet", this is a natural consequence of getting blogs out earlier rather than later. We can wait until we know everything, but then there's no time to make changes. Right now we're releasing blogs for things that are "mostly" done designing, in that the core stuff is solid and in implementation but a lot of the consequences are still being tidied up.

- More specifically, starbases. I'm being vague in no small part because this is something we're having continuing conversations about but we haven't really nailed down our approach yet, or figured out what will end up being possible in the time available.

We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2014-04-29 15:05:40 UTC
Altrue wrote:
I was expecting a bigger incentive to build in null-sec. Maybe I'm wrong, or I have trouble grasping actual numbers, time will tell.


Yeah, you're missing it. Job cost savings will completely outstrip JF fuel costs by a large margin.
Annah Gerber
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2014-04-29 15:07:15 UTC
(Part 1/??)
So after reading through the blogposts so far, and now you bring out this.

So my main question is this; Why do you want everyone in your pretty little game to shoot eachother?

Because that's what you are forcing us to do, it all started with the pocos, as a person who does PI, it's annoying to say the least, we ended up with high sec pirates shooting each other to be able to own the right for the poco, now as a player who needs to get access to this it's annoying when the poco changes owner once a week and the taxes go all the way from 15-100%. And yes we can bypass it by launching our stuff, but after having 2 mates of mine having their corpses wardecked for doing this to avoid the taxes I think not. So PI is basicly nothing more than annoying now.


Secondly, you throw this in our face, saying that you want "Risk vs reward" and yea why not, but are you this daft thinking this will work? You have clearly been listening too much to the people who do the pew pew rather than the people who do the actual manufacturing, every single time I undock my 1.1 bil ship to bring stuff worth anywhere from 500-1bil to a tradehub 10 jumps away, I risk that, even while not autopiloting people who feel like it can easily pop me with stuff worth less than 300 mil in total. How is that not risk?

And that's not the worst of it, you keep nerfing everything but incursions, only feeding that as your little baby to make ISK, the same time it takes me to gather enough materials through PI and mining to make myself 100 mil worth items, someone running incursions would have been able to make anywhere from 4 to 5 times as much as me. And while those ships do get popped, for every incursion BS that drops there are atleast 20-50 indi ships that do aswell.

But you don't care about that do you? Because aslong as the plex prices are high, people will buy them for real money and sell them ingame, (And don't even get me started on the stupidity of the €=$ bollox you are using because that's just rude and offensive) the market is in shambles, it's broken down to a shell of it's former self, I can either spend 3 hours getting stuff ready to then earn 4 times as little as a person running incursions in the same time would have.


That's the root of the problem for now, the market is too bad right now that it's not worth making anything, and you simply do not care about this at all. Aslong as people buy plexes. The problem with manufacturing today isn't how it works, it's how the market is and the fact that if you aren't looking into fixing it, soon you won't have half as many people doing manufacturing as you do today.
Annah Gerber
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2014-04-29 15:08:03 UTC
(Part 2/2)
Which brings me neatly into the next part of the problems with these changes. Dumbing it down.

While you claim that this is not what you are doing, you are, try as you may you are making it easier, when I started I had to spend hours and hours reading up on how to best make make my isk count and I did and it made me feel good, but due to the fact that you are dumbing it down you are going to see more people going into it, which again, will break the market. The market is **** poor as it is and bringing more muppets into the party who just want to shift their items as soon as possible, it's just not going to end well.


And if people are correct that you are going to add charges to a PoS, what on earth are you thinking? This only feeds the problem even more!!!! I can not stress this enough.. It will only end badly for you.. If you lose 3k accounts, do you honestly think you are going to make more money by pushing the prices on the plexes? It's not going to work that way.


You are doing everything you can to make the market go up without actually making the manufacturers make more money on it, only to raise your plex prices, this in itself is a selfish and stupid idea. Instead of trying to make it seem like you actually care about the market, why don't you just remove manufacturing and feed the markets yourself? Make everything super expensive and the plexes will rise in price, because that's an easier way to get to your goal than pissing people off while doing it this way.



The problems with the PoS'es is that you aren't just looking to add tax to it, we are already running our own "mini spacestation" which has costs tied in to it to begin with, it's already 1b+ a month to fuel a large PoS, if you want us to also pay the taxes for using our own devices we put in, you are spreading it on thick, we can spend 60b+ buying our own station in null, and we would still have to lose money manufacturing in it..


And while the no slots thing might work out really well for people in large corps who owns a PoS, for the smaller groups it just means more hassle, more money loss, while bringing us nothing good at all. The characters aren't going to be able to build more so it's just going to be more of an issue than before. We are going to have a bunch of extra installations sitting there doing nothing but giving us small bonuses to costs that I don't already have, that in itself is a problem.



And the fact that you are STILL going to release the summer patch knowing that you can not fix the issues the PoS has in time is just beyond me, it's baffling to me, this is one of the biggest things about industry and you still managed to bork it up.. If not THE biggest things, because I am yet to see any numbers that would suggest that the stations are being used more than PoS'es when it comes to manufacturing.


What you are doing here is putting another nail in the coffin for industry while yet again surprise surprise you are feeding the pirates and the highsec griefers.

And yet again, Risk vs reward doesn't work when I risk 250+ mil each time I undock in a hulk, when someone in a ship worth less than 10 mil can pop it. Same goes for the freighter, people using ships worth less 1/4 of the value can pop it. Just like that, because they feel like it. So no, we got enough risk as it is.

That's all.


Also why write that you got 6000 characters if you can't use all of them??
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#185 - 2014-04-29 15:08:21 UTC
Can we get current total job hours for each type of job that has the cost scaling applied to it, so we can do math about "lets say our system gets X builds, will we need a second station upgraded or is one good for now" patch planning?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#186 - 2014-04-29 15:09:37 UTC
This is a huge change in CCP philosophy concerning New Eden's capsuleer driven economy, in order to satisfy their other customer base in China Shocked

Is this because of the same elementary school level of thinking, because China is 1.354 billion people ?

My analogy; when asked why Dust514 was only on the playstation 3 the answer from CCP was "because 80 million consoles"

Some can read between the lines and see that CCP not only wrote of world of darkness, but also amortised Dust514 from the books; http://marketsforisk.blogspot.fr/2014/03/ccp-2013-results.html

Anyways in my opinion, as a small part of the community, CCP again screws over it's current customers in their quest to have potential new players from China or from somewhere else, which is very difficult as a niche mmo.

The changes to industry lo-sec will be devastating concerning capital ships, and the price for battleships in hi-sec will be insane for those potential new players.

In my opinion.

Regards, a Freelancer

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DEATHB1RD
DU5T
#187 - 2014-04-29 15:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: DEATHB1RD
Qorinn Eselle wrote:
However it's calculated -- manufacturing cost as a direct function of price seems like it's going to create problems with supply/demand equilibrium and the efficiency of markets.



Price goes up -> manufacturing cost goes up -> price goes up -> manufacturing cost goes up ->infinite spiral

Sounds like we'll be moving from billions to trillions before long. Did CCP hire a bunch of bankers for econ?
Steijn
Quay Industries
#188 - 2014-04-29 15:11:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Adaahh Gee wrote:
For the non-industrial folk, as a rough percentage figure.

What increase in ship prices are CCP hoping to achieve for general high sec trade hub prices?


There's no real "hoping for" here, price rises are a necessary side-effect not a goal in and of themselves. I'd expect low single-digits percentage increase.


but surely you are hoping for an increase in ISK removed from the game via these new taxes/fees/isk sinks? How much? an extra 10%? 15%?
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#189 - 2014-04-29 15:12:22 UTC
Can we push this back to christmas? and perhaps bundle it with a pos revamp?
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2014-04-29 15:12:58 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Some general points:


We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.


Increase space in assembly arrays. By a lot.


And make an array that can make the stuff you currently can't make in arrays.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2014-04-29 15:13:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ok, I just know I must have missed something in all of this, but I can't spot any specific bonus related to them, so…

…what's the point of even having a POS if it is not treated as its own separate entity that adds to/provides unique ownership of the industry capacity of the system? Straight

The station slot system that benefits systems with many indy stations is transformed into a system-wide bonus that depends on the number of stations. But what do POSes add? The point of having one is that you get even more slots and don't have to mingle with the unwashed masses, and those slots are yours and yours alone — let everyone else fight over the public scraps. Where's that in the new system? I'm not just talking about the missing bonus for having multiple arrays of the same type. What's the point of the POS itself in such a system?


I'm thinking that POSes could end up as a kind of territorial control factor in high/null. If they can pass on bonuses easily enough.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#192 - 2014-04-29 15:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We are totally open to suggestions for what to do with starbases as they relate to industry. In particular, if anyone who does starbase work can spend a few minutes outlining the *simplest* changes they think would be sufficient to keep starbases in a reasonable place for this release, we're very interested in hearing them. Yes, we know "throw it out and start over" would be great, but we're not getting that done between now and the summer release, no matter how much we'd like to.

See my previous post.

Use the same method you're using to replace total system slot count with a system cost bonus, only when you use a POS, it counts the number of relevant arrays at that POS to determine the bonus (and completely ignores all system-based bonuses). The exact per-array bonus can be tweaked, or you can be all fancy and give different arrays different bonuses. A “relevant array” would be any array that can perform the kind of S&I job you're about to do.
Iorga Eeta
Hekatonkheires Industries
#193 - 2014-04-29 15:14:19 UTC
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Hmm that blog is a bit disappointing as i feel it still lacks a lot of information.

The example is for a high sec station, so what actually happens to or for POS owners? What sort of bonus or penalty are we looking for at there? What different makes it if we use several POS structures of the same type?




It's a bit handwavy, it looks like they are still working out the details. But it is right there in the middle of the blog post:

Quote:

A couple of things should be noted here. First, these bonuses apply system-wide, including to jobs installed in starbases. Second, keep in mind that this is still a smallish percentage of the total build cost -- it's not a 50% reduction in build cost, it's a 50% reduction in job installation costs which are typically (well) below 10% of build cost.
...
Some kind of starbase bonus: we're hoping to add a bonus for having multiple starbase structures at the same time, so removing slots doesn't just mean you only ever need one lab on your hisec research tower. We're still determining exactly whether or how we can get this into the initial release without causing performance issues. Wish us luck!
Steijn
Quay Industries
#194 - 2014-04-29 15:14:29 UTC
McBorsk wrote:
Can we push this back to christmas? and perhaps bundle it with a pos revamp?


they'll still be patching this at Xmas. Big smile
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#195 - 2014-04-29 15:15:28 UTC
Gabriel Z wrote:
I'm a little confused about something in the dev blog.

Quote:
Every station in a system has two facility multipliers -- one for manufacturing and one for research -- and the system's various multipliers are all multiplied together and then multiplied with the price.


This seems to imply that whether a station has factory or research facilities or not, it's part of the calculation. Is that correct? Also, are they still going to have stations with the research/factory designation? Does "no slots" mean that ANY station can be used and there is no such thing a system that has a station but not industry abilities?


Yes, yes, no.

Sturmwolke wrote:
I just want to mention two things, to get this on the table.

NPC alt exploit - The formula atm does not distinguish player corp and NPC corp*. There's still a few missing pieces, will this be addresed in those?
*NPC corp manufacturing doesn't require a corp office.

Office rental griefing - With current maximum 24 offices per station and no cap to office rental, the possibility of griefing an entire solar system is high. You can either flood the station with multiple alt corps or tap a finishing touch to the last 2-3 office slots. With near unlimited isk, this can be turned into long term harassment tool, rendering a system into scorched earth for manufacturing and research activities. As with MIMAF, there will always be players who won't include the amortized monthly rental into their costs calculations.


Yes, someone with unlimited ISK to throw at a particular system has the ability to cause a huge mess with office slots. We want to take another look at the office slot system at some point, but at the same time the ability to burn huge amounts of cash on economic warfare is not entirely a negative thing.

Weaselior wrote:
Can we get current total job hours for each type of job that has the cost scaling applied to it, so we can do math about "lets say our system gets X builds, will we need a second station upgraded or is one good for now" patch planning?


As in, total global hours for each activity type?
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2014-04-29 15:16:38 UTC
Isn't "Fraction of global job hours" based on the last 28 days massively exploitable?

If people clump together to do work they will push up the amount of work done on the previous 28 day moving average.
This means future jobs will take less of a portion by comparison to this 28 day history, and cost much less, more incentive to clump up more? A positive feedback cycle.

Ideally what you are proposing is we ALL ship our stuff to Nonni, establish an utterly massive 28 day history and then all our future jobs pale into insignificance as a portion of that 28 day historical workload. (as long as we maintain/keep the 28 day average high )

Having established a massive 28 day historical baseline, even large jobs will seem tiny by comparison and cost peanuts, possibly even less than currently.

What am I not understanding?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#197 - 2014-04-29 15:16:40 UTC
Annah Gerber wrote:

The problems with the PoS'es is that you aren't just looking to add tax to it, we are already running our own "mini spacestation" which has costs tied in to it to begin with, it's already 1b+ a month to fuel a large PoS,

i was just skimming through your post thinking "boy that's a lot of crazy" when this popped out at me

a large pos fuel cost is nowhere near 1b a month you clearly have no idea what you're talking about

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2014-04-29 15:17:00 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Can we get current total job hours for each type of job that has the cost scaling applied to it, so we can do math about "lets say our system gets X builds, will we need a second station upgraded or is one good for now" patch planning?


Crest access to pretty much all the things that are relevant for the final cost. No matter how good the ingame tools are, we will keep using spreadsheets and tools, especially for longtime planning and sharing information
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2014-04-29 15:17:10 UTC
DEATHB1RD wrote:
Qorinn Eselle wrote:
However it's calculated -- manufacturing cost as a direct function of price seems like it's going to create problems with supply/demand equilibrium and the efficiency of markets.



Price goes up -> manufacturing cost goes up -> price goes up -> manufacturing cost goes up ->infinite spiral

Sounds like we'll be moving from billions to trillions before long. Did CCP hire a bunch of bankers for econ?


Since the job cost only represent 10% of the entire cost at most, I highly doubt this is going to happen. The base price of a product is directly tied to the resources used in its construction. The relatively small cost associated with starting a job will hardly have an impact on this.

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PineappIe King
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2014-04-29 15:17:30 UTC
Worst expansion ever, you really expect us to w*** off over a new industry GUI and some prices changes?

We want to shoot at stuff and make isk and we want NEW CONTENT besides the fixes to broken (POSes) or updates and attribute changes to dated content. You cant just serve us with some half assed expansion. What are all your game designers and coders in reikjavik doing??

Didn't CCP had enough chances yet to learn how important it is to the eve player base to release actual new content through expansions? No? Here, have my unsub!

o/