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Dev blog: The Price of Change

First post First post
Author
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#121 - 2014-04-29 13:59:21 UTC
So my 5 cents:

1.] FIrst, I thought you want to make manufacturing more easier. Thus you are introducing formulas including load of variables noone will be able to calculate on their own. Seems really strange, you could have leave the old ME/PE formulas alone, they are much easier to calculate than this. I really hope it will be easy to at least find out what the multipliers are on star map of systems, so people can actually easily make a desicion if the system they are in is good or not or where to find a cheaper installation and if it is worth it.

2.] Fees should be definitelly affected by standings.


3.] You are adding some dynamic aspect to the game and leaving players desicions, which is good, but I am afraid this will be just so hard for everyone so most people end up just installing wherever they are, because finding out something close and cheaper will be too complicated.

4.] You should consider API feed for all those multiplyers, so people have at least some chance to include this in their sheets.
Rust Connor
Industrias PapaCapim
#122 - 2014-04-29 14:00:20 UTC
So many posts, so little time

- POS Bonus
POS structures will keep their time bonus? 0.XX production time, research time, copy time? And with unlimited slots?!

- T2 BPO copy (off topic)
If so, T2 BPO copy will have an even bigger impact with the copy time change. Or I'm missing something?
(Dont know if it was discussed on the other post, i didnt read all pages)

- About multiple runs discount
The discount is based on the time to run the job, right? So more bonus(skill, research, pos) means less discount on subsequent runs, right ? So TE10 bpo+Industry5 will give you more products, but they will be more expensive then someone using a TE0 bpo+Industry1. Is that right?
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#123 - 2014-04-29 14:02:08 UTC
Ouch. Hurts to hear that even though I currently have more assembly lines at my POSes than some station systems do, they won't count for anything under the new system.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#124 - 2014-04-29 14:02:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
I would suggest a discount on the workforce cost if the job is run in a POS (the new code must be able to include this in at least since it'll know not to apply NPC tax). Depending on how the database tables are set up it shouldn't be too hard to pull out the number of online labs for that POS and use this as a multiplier on workforce cost (if you provide better shinier equipment you will only be paying for labour).

Also factor in the aforementioned exotic dancers bonus to the workforce discount :D
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#125 - 2014-04-29 14:03:04 UTC
probag Bear wrote:
Ouch. Hurts to hear that even though I currently have more assembly lines at my POSes than some station systems do, they won't count for anything under the new system.

They will do, but they haven't figured out an appropriate bonus yet as detailed in the blog.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2014-04-29 14:05:21 UTC
I would recommend caution around the perception it isn't exploitable aka forex. I had done some work in this area after the fix and we had mostly figured out how it worked and how we could probably break it. We didn't as we were busy and you handed us patch after patch of goodies. The fact we are watched like hawks and would have any profits taken was also a big factor.

My point, anyone without those limitations can probably bust this one too. At the very least have someone running reports to watch across the galaxy.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#127 - 2014-04-29 14:07:40 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.

From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.

It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs?


It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect.
DEATHB1RD
DU5T
#128 - 2014-04-29 14:07:45 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So, basically if I produce in a 1 station system in High sec, I am screwed?

And production in general for a ton of items is going to be unprofitable for a very long time. Wonderful. I sure hope you have plans to keep EVE up for the next couple of years until things have finally normalized at a profitable level again. Roll



Looking at the Abaddon production cost example, CCP seems to think ships are too cheap, inflation is insufficient and we should have to do much more ISK grinding (or plex buying) between kills.



Given that CCP's game mechanics have permitted all null sec space to be run by a few large pyramids, I'm really not going to shed any tears about underwhelming station bonuses... The game totally lost the frontier feeling from the early days.

Even with its total lack of polish in 2003, the game was more fun then. You could actually still discover empty, unclaimed systems if you made it past the blockades.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#129 - 2014-04-29 14:08:48 UTC
How will the workforce cost be determined for WH's? They are not in any system as such so will they simply have a base worforce cost dependent on the amount of universal work done inside the WH?
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#130 - 2014-04-29 14:09:32 UTC
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
4.] You should consider API feed for all those multiplyers, so people have at least some chance to include this in their sheets.

This, +1 !

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#131 - 2014-04-29 14:10:08 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.

From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.

It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs?


It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect.

Hmm, so if the real market has minimal affect on the cost calculation, then surely they aren't based upon the market, or if so only very vaguely and must be linked to something else.

Whatever it is, it is pretty confusing and makes industry that much more of a headache to calculate. Especially when the details are so vague.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2014-04-29 14:10:17 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.

From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.

It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs?


It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect.


Ok. We had mostly graphed this in a spreadsheet as I recall and figured out how the serverside variable you were never sending to client was determined. But as long as you guys are aware ok.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Dirty Wrench
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2014-04-29 14:10:25 UTC
Right now I can manufacture an Abaddon for 2332 isk in factory fees. 1000 isk to install + 4*333 (333 isk isk per hour and it takes 4 hours).

So after the wonderful changes it will cost millions of isk to make a single ship in a not so busy system.

In your example you've paid 7,620,000 isk in factory fees.

All this does is jack up the price a manufacturer shoves onto the buyer.

I fail to see any reason to do this. This just drives the price of casual PvP up whilst doing nothing to the actual manufacturers as they are just displacing costs on to the buyer.

Did you really want to see people pay more for stuff they use to actually play the game ?
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#134 - 2014-04-29 14:13:46 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.

From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.

It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs?


It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect.


Ok. We had mostly graphed this in a spreadsheet as I recall and figured out how the serverside variable you were never sending to client was determined. But as long as you guys are aware ok.

Well from that response it seems CCP set the market values themselves. Very little influence is taken from the market.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#135 - 2014-04-29 14:14:09 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.

From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.

It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs?


It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect.


Ok. We had mostly graphed this in a spreadsheet as I recall and figured out how the serverside variable you were never sending to client was determined. But as long as you guys are aware ok.


Just to be clear, I'm not saying that manipulation can't happen, but the fact we're only dealing with small fractions of the actual value means their effects will be minimal for the cost calculation. The biggest risk of exploitation has always been the FW payout system because of the link between ISK values and LPs, which creates dangers. But those are irrelevant for the cost calculation, so we're optimistic (famous last words, I know Big smile).
Qorinn Eselle
Phronesis.
#136 - 2014-04-29 14:14:48 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


It's not per-region, it's a global ballpark price value. What it does for us is it gives a pretty safe way for more expensive things to generally cost more to build than less expensive things, which seemed like a pretty reasonable outcome.


However it's calculated -- manufacturing cost as a direct function of price seems like it's going to create problems with supply/demand equilibrium and the efficiency of markets.

Regardless, this train has left the station, so I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out.

CCP Greyscale wrote:


We're not going to go into details on exactly how we're dealing with manipulation issues; the reason we're pretty confident is that we already use this system to price FW LP payouts and we've not seen a repeat of the price manipulation issues that system previously had since we put the new system in place. If there was manipulation to be done, we assume it would already be happening in FW.


Fair enough, I completely understand. Big smile
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#137 - 2014-04-29 14:14:55 UTC
Ok, I just know I must have missed something in all of this, but I can't spot any specific bonus related to them, so…

…what's the point of even having a POS if it is not treated as its own separate entity that adds to/provides unique ownership of the industry capacity of the system? Straight

The station slot system that benefits systems with many indy stations is transformed into a system-wide bonus that depends on the number of stations. But what do POSes add? The point of having one is that you get even more slots and don't have to mingle with the unwashed masses, and those slots are yours and yours alone — let everyone else fight over the public scraps. Where's that in the new system? I'm not just talking about the missing bonus for having multiple arrays of the same type. What's the point of the POS itself in such a system?
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#138 - 2014-04-29 14:17:21 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.

From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.

It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs?


It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect.


Ok. We had mostly graphed this in a spreadsheet as I recall and figured out how the serverside variable you were never sending to client was determined. But as long as you guys are aware ok.


Just to be clear, I'm not saying that manipulation can't happen, but the fact we're only dealing with small fractions of the actual value means their effects will be minimal for the cost calculation. The biggest risk of exploitation has always been the FW payout system because of the link between ISK values and LPs, which creates dangers. But those are irrelevant for the cost calculation, so we're optimistic (famous last words, I know Big smile).

Also it was mentioned that the cost Is based upon the regional market price. This would mean that maniplulation could effectively close down an entire regions viability for producing certain items. Yes perhaps only by increasing costs by a couple of %, but that still will have a cumulative affect and scales to having a larger affect on more expensive items.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#139 - 2014-04-29 14:17:23 UTC
Aareya wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

Quote:
For each previously-slot-improving outpost research upgrade, you'll similarly get a 0.9x multiplier to research job prices.

For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.


However, I'm fairly underwhelmed by the manufacturing slot replacement bonus. The reason is that it's exactly the same as the POS bonus: I can spend 60b on a station, or 300m on a pos. I think it's a little absurd that the absolute pinnacle of manufacturing you can aspire to, spend huge amounts of money to create, and have to defend gives you nothing better than a pos one jump from jita. And that's from a hyper-specialized factory: once you do that you've used up nearly all of your outpost upgrade slots and you've only got one tier 1 left (probably offices). I think that bonus should be increased slightly at the high end (i.e. a tier 2 or 3 upgrade should give 2%) or the bonus given to pos should be reduced somewhat.

While people will claim pos are at risk, they're not: pos assembly arrays don't drop anything from a build in progress. Entity alluded to his "20b pos" in another thread, where if it was attacked he'd lose 20b of manufacturing products. But the thing is, if I bothered to find it and kill it, I'd get none of that: the assembly arrays would act like they were empty since between the build being installed and delivered, they are. So nobody will bother attacking pos unless someone's really pissed them off: it'll be purely for griefing and not for profit.

I can't comment on the value of the research upgrade as I don't understand how research

We're probably revisiting the starbase numbers in the near future, which should alleviate at least some of this concern I hope.

Thank you.

In the dev blog, Reprocess All The Things, you had indicated that refining arrays would receive a 52% and 54% efficiency. This is better than both NPC and un-upgraded outposts. However, you gave sov holding entities the opportunity to exceed this efficiency by upgrading their outposts further, with the maximum efficiency achievable as 57% and 60% (non-minmatar, minmatar).

It would be nice if this strategy was made consistent with respect to manufacturing upgrades. This would provide sov holders a manufacturing advantage over non-sov holders whom the latter would only have NPC station or POS as their null sec manufacturing options.


CCP Greyscale said on page two of these comments that the idea of the industry changes is not to 'incentivize' nullsec industrial capability.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2014-04-29 14:17:34 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.

From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.

It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs?


It's not going to break the cost calculations. The valuation for unstable items like the ones you mention is very conservative, but that's fine. It might not show very accurate values for these items, but they will have values that make sense for the industry cost calculation. And manipulating the price on the 'real' market will only have minimal effect.


Ok. We had mostly graphed this in a spreadsheet as I recall and figured out how the serverside variable you were never sending to client was determined. But as long as you guys are aware ok.


Just to be clear, I'm not saying that manipulation can't happen, but the fact we're only dealing with small fractions of the actual value means their effects will be minimal for the cost calculation. The biggest risk of exploitation has always been the FW payout system because of the link between ISK values and LPs, which creates dangers. But those are irrelevant for the cost calculation, so we're optimistic (famous last words, I know Big smile).


Agreed. The biggest risk is someone will do the tests I was doing that combined fw/bounties and bust that one wide open again. Just want to make sure everyone is aware of that danger when linking more systems to it.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.