These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: The Price of Change

First post First post
Author
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#81 - 2014-04-29 13:22:26 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:


OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied


so by tax u mean install cost? not tax

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Antoine Jordan
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-04-29 13:23:29 UTC
Hey man just FYI in your mock-up near the end, it says "mupltie" which I'm pretty sure isn't a word, in English anyway.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#83 - 2014-04-29 13:24:12 UTC
Rust Connor wrote:
Could you elaborate more about the ME skill change?
I've spent almost 20% of my character life time to level it to 5, just wanna see how good/bad the decision was. Straight


We've not 100% pinned this down yet, it's on my to-do list :)

Magic Crisp wrote:
If you allow me to ask, have you checked how this affects t2 BPO vs BPC manufacturing fees? This also depends on other changes, right, but let's take into account we'll able to do whatever we are able to do here. So, compared to a 30d long job from a tech2 BPO, a tech2 BPC with a limited number of runs will be more expensive. Have you checked numbers how much savings can be done this way, and by this, buffing tech2 BPO owners even more?

Otherwise the stuff seems great, I kinda like the ideas. However, i personally think that standings should affect fees at NPC stations. And also, amarrian outposts should have no fees at all, because those slaves are doing the job, for free ;)


No, I haven't. I'll try and do that :)

adriaans wrote:
1) Does every station in a system cause a discount or only stations that have factories/research facilities? (NPC ones).
2) Can we have an example of how BPC jobs are priced so I am sure I understand it correctly? I hope I am wrong in thinking that invented BPC's will become much more expensive... (I.e. indirect buff to T2 BPO's).
3) Is POS based jobs still faster from time multipliers? (0.65, 0.5, 0.75 respectively for copy, invent, manufact).


Every station gives some level of discount.

I'll have a look at invention BPC costs

I believe the existing speed multipliers for starbase structures are still in place, Ytterbium is looking at them atm.

Vincent Athena wrote:
I'm a little worried about "station irrelevance". In any solar system with multiple stations there will be good ones and not so good ones. It would seem like this pricing scheme will make the not-so-good stations irrelevant. Why even have them in the game?


All stations get the cost bonuses from all stations in the system, it's not a per-station thing.

Harah Noud wrote:
Well other than these points I m happy with the changes

1- a +5% ME bonus for a fully upgraded amarr null sec stations seems high , maybe raise their run cost to compensate?

2- I think it s really important to have the NPC station tax be affected by standings. I hope u could consider doing it with the expansion!

Btw, is the industry implants effects still the same in the new system? Is it calculated above all other bonuses?


Great job


The full 5% bonus is a *lot* of money, and in any case is somewhat overshadowed currently by the Minmatar reprocessing bonus. We're not super-concerned about the balance here just yet.

I'll see what can be done about the standings.

I believe industry implants should still work, yes.

Calorn Marthor wrote:
The examples Greyscale calculated are based on a snapshot from a system under different rules.
It is safe to assume that for unlimited number of production jobs possible with only a 4% price markup, everyone will rush to Jita 4-4 and do the manufacturing there.

So this number will change very quickly (read: after 28 days ;-) ).
Question is: where will it stabilize, or put differently:

At which percentage of global manufacturing activity will Jita reach 10% (15%/20%) total cost increase?
Which percentage is necessary until the surrounding systems are also considered "full".

Could produce a nice effect when goods are manufactured in different places based on profit margin... but still I wonder whether the differences will be big enough to justify transport expenses (time & ISK).


Another thing is that a quick scan on dotlan revealed that there way more stations per system in Caldari space than anywhere else. Is that true?




Jita would hit 10% of build cost aaaat... somewhere around 2% of global activity. It's at 0.39% in the snapshot I have. 5x increase in job hours would do it. 15% is around 5%, 20% is at 8%.

Medalyn Isis wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
Eitak Utrigas wrote:
CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them.
Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd.
As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered.
No one will move their gear from a station again!


U don't pay the tax in a POS



You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons

Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog.


Lemme clear this up:

WORKFORCE COSTS, ie job installation costs, are paid at starbases. This is not a "tax", it's the cost of labor, which goes up in busy systems as you'd expect.

TAXES, the additional 1.1x multiplier to your workforce costs, are not paid at starbases.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#84 - 2014-04-29 13:24:15 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Currently outpost owners have the ability to restrict some or all of the slots to ensure they're open for corp projects. Obviously, with no slots, that's going away, but is it being replaced by anything to "gate" who can use the factory? Can use be limited to specific corps or the like (within the alliance), or is it purely standings-based like the other things you can restrict at a station?


We are still looking at this actually, but yes there will be the ability to set some restrictions per facility instead of per assembly line which you used to do.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#85 - 2014-04-29 13:25:21 UTC
Antoine Jordan wrote:
Hey man just FYI in your mock-up near the end, it says "mupltie" which I'm pretty sure isn't a word, in English anyway.


True fact. Have a cookie :)
Qorinn Eselle
Phronesis.
#86 - 2014-04-29 13:25:36 UTC
The economic logic behind the installation cost calculation eludes me. Making the installation cost for a manufacturing job correlate directly to the sell price of the completed item in a given region doesn't make much sense.

The cost to manufacture an individual BMW has nothing to do with the final sticker price at the dealership, let alone an average of sticker prices in a particular region over a given time. If anything, there might be pressure on the sell price created by rising manufacturing costs, but not the other way around.

I would love to hear Dr EyjoG’s perspective on this.

I’m glad to hear that you’re “aware of the risk of price manipulation,” and that you’re “confident this system is robust in this regard.” It would be nice to get more details on how you plan to combat this, because it is inevitable that “someone” will try. Smile
Elmer Scribner
Cold Hard Productions
#87 - 2014-04-29 13:26:00 UTC
I really think that the starbase (POS) bonuses needs to be sorted before release.

As has been mentioned, a large portion of high sec industry happens in a POS (or maybe we're all wrong and hardly any industry is happening in a POS?). What benefit to POS owners will exist after release?

Does saving that 10% suddenly make operating a POS not worth it and should I move everything to station instead?

I'm assuming POS arrays still maintain any time bonuses so maybe that will make it worth it to keep a POS running?
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#88 - 2014-04-29 13:26:22 UTC
Perhaps I missed it... but where does the *effect* of having great standings with one NPC corp (or state faction) or another factor into the cost of doing "builds" at npc stations ?

Or not ?

Shocked

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Steijn
Quay Industries
#89 - 2014-04-29 13:27:06 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Perhaps I missed it... but where does the *effect* of having great standings with one NPC corp (or state faction) or another factor into the cost of doing "builds" at npc stations ?

Or not ?

Shocked


it doesnt............................yet.
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#90 - 2014-04-29 13:27:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lemme clear this up:

WORKFORCE COSTS, ie job installation costs, are paid at starbases. This is not a "tax", it's the cost of labor, which goes up in busy systems as you'd expect.

TAXES, the additional 1.1x multiplier to your workforce costs, are not paid at starbases.


Tomato
Tomatoe

It is all a ******* tax, we ain't getting this **** back and it goes to the "Man"

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#91 - 2014-04-29 13:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rapscallion Jones
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:


OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied


so by tax u mean install cost? not tax


Semantics people, stop fixing on them and read his intent. Where is the offset for the cost of running a POS? Taxes aren't going to come close to the +500mil cost of operating a POS.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-04-29 13:29:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
Well other than these points I m happy with the changes

1- a +5% ME bonus for a fully upgraded amarr null sec stations seems high , maybe raise their run cost to compensate?

2- I think it s really important to have the NPC station tax be affected by standings. I hope u could consider doing it with the expansion!

Btw, is the industry implants effects still the same in the new system? Is it calculated above all other bonuses?


Great job


The full 5% bonus is a *lot* of money, and in any case is somewhat overshadowed currently by the Minmatar reprocessing bonus. We're not super-concerned about the balance here just yet.

I'll see what can be done about the standings.

I believe industry implants should still work, yes

+1 for making standing affect the NPC station tax.

Also a full 5% bonus is indeed a very good bonus for a null sec station. Imo that is possibly too much of an advantage for outposts, and definitely shouldn't be increased further.

Also any details on where we can find the station modifiers?
Steijn
Quay Industries
#93 - 2014-04-29 13:29:27 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:


OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied


so by tax u mean install cost? not tax


Somantics people, stop fixing on them and read his intent. Where is the offset for the cost of running a POS? Taxes aren't going to come close to the +500mil cost of operating a POS.


without CCP giving exact figures, you cant make that asssumption, thats what needs to be known, exact figures.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#94 - 2014-04-29 13:29:47 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


WORKFORCE COSTS, ie job installation costs, are paid at starbases. This is not a "tax", it's the cost of labor, which goes up in busy systems as you'd expect.

TAXES, the additional 1.1x multiplier to your workforce costs, are not paid at starbases.


Will we be able to mitigate workforce costs by placing marines, scientists, exotic dancers etc in a POS? I'd suggest double the effect for exotic dancers as a happy workforce is a more productive workforce Twisted
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#95 - 2014-04-29 13:30:10 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:


OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied


so by tax u mean install cost? not tax


Somantics people, stop fixing on them and read his intent. Where is the offset for the cost of running a POS? Taxes aren't going to come close to the +500mil cost of operating a POS.


no that truly confused ppl

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#96 - 2014-04-29 13:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'll see what can be done about the standings.

I believe industry implants should still work, yes.


Does this mean that currently faction standings play no role whatsoever?

And you believe or do you know? Only believing would be pretty ... weak, if I may say so.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Cultural Enrichment
Jenkem Puffing Association
#97 - 2014-04-29 13:30:43 UTC
Quote:
Multi-run discount: makes each subsequent run of a given job cost a little less than the last, mainly to give another small thing that industrialists can optimize for once they've got the basics under control. For each run, the job cost is multiplied by 0.99 raised to the power of however many hours (or fractions thereof) the job will already have run at that point. This is calculated at installation time and therefore the job doesn't actually change price over time. Rather, we do the math up front. We're looking to cap the maximum bonus of this using the old Material Efficiency skill, which will no longer be affecting waste (see previous blog).

So the comparative advantage of a T2 BPO starting a month-long job against an invented BPC is getting even larger?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#98 - 2014-04-29 13:31:35 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


WORKFORCE COSTS, ie job installation costs, are paid at starbases. This is not a "tax", it's the cost of labor, which goes up in busy systems as you'd expect.

TAXES, the additional 1.1x multiplier to your workforce costs, are not paid at starbases.


Will we be able to mitigate workforce costs by placing marines, scientists, exotic dancers etc in a POS? I'd suggest double the effect for exotic dancers as a happy workforce is a more productive workforceTwisted


science confirms this. make it happen.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2014-04-29 13:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Plug in Baby
Quote:
For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now).


This is will only affect non perfect blueprints right? Nothing will be going past perfect right?


if not.. U WOT M8?

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#100 - 2014-04-29 13:33:26 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.

From what I recall of that system it relies on market prices, just with protections against manipulation that were added when some group of rapscallions abused the old one.

It's going to break for the sort of items I mentioned (nobody sells or buys capital components or t2 capital components except in extremely rare cases at random prices) and supercaps cannot be on the market at all, so there's no market data for them and never can be. This is a problem pretty much for all production intermediates: is there any solution that's being considered or are those going to get highly variable costs?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.