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Dev blog: The Price of Change

First post First post
Author
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2014-04-29 13:05:44 UTC
Eitak Utrigas wrote:
CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them.
Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd.
As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered.
No one will move their gear from a station again!


U don't pay the tax in a POS
Steijn
Quay Industries
#62 - 2014-04-29 13:06:08 UTC
penifSMASH wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor. The "good" solution is reasonably straightforward, it just requires a chunk of work and adds a fair bit of risk.


Is this post a troll


glad its not only me that thinks its a disgusting comment.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#63 - 2014-04-29 13:06:30 UTC
I like these changes. Is there any way we can see which stations are going to confer which bonuses before the release? You said that the multiplier will vary depending on the quality of the stations facilities.

Also are we going to have to work out the overall multiplier for a system by multiplying all the station's multipliers, or will this information be clear on the star map?

I'm going to have to reserve final judgement as there are too man variables at play and so the consequences won't be fully evident until this goes live. I expect it will need quite a bit of tweaking. Overall though very nice changes. But dam you for making me have to make even more complex spreadsheet now! :)
Steijn
Quay Industries
#64 - 2014-04-29 13:07:07 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
Eitak Utrigas wrote:
CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them.
Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd.
As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered.
No one will move their gear from a station again!


U don't pay the tax in a POS


you need to re-read the blogs.
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#65 - 2014-04-29 13:09:37 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
Eitak Utrigas wrote:
CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them.
Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd.
As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered.
No one will move their gear from a station again!


U don't pay the tax in a POS



You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
#66 - 2014-04-29 13:10:12 UTC
The examples Greyscale calculated are based on a snapshot from a system under different rules.
It is safe to assume that for unlimited number of production jobs possible with only a 4% price markup, everyone will rush to Jita 4-4 and do the manufacturing there.

So this number will change very quickly (read: after 28 days ;-) ).
Question is: where will it stabilize, or put differently:

At which percentage of global manufacturing activity will Jita reach 10% (15%/20%) total cost increase?
Which percentage is necessary until the surrounding systems are also considered "full".

Could produce a nice effect when goods are manufactured in different places based on profit margin... but still I wonder whether the differences will be big enough to justify transport expenses (time & ISK).


Another thing is that a quick scan on dotlan revealed that there way more stations per system in Caldari space than anywhere else. Is that true?


TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-04-29 13:10:20 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor. The "good" solution is reasonably straightforward, it just requires a chunk of work and adds a fair bit of risk.


You guys have been treating POSs this way for years now. Even with small improvements.

"Don't touch the POS code. It's too complicated and takes too long. We'll do it some other time."

It's getting old.

The point is, even if it has to be some ducttape solution on launch, at least there's a solution. That is still infinitely better than just saying "Yeah, you know those 8 POS labs on your tower? 7 of those are now useless. Bye!".

That better not happen because that would be one of the largest fails since boot.ini.

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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#68 - 2014-04-29 13:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
Eitak Utrigas wrote:
CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them.
Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd.
As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered.
No one will move their gear from a station again!


U don't pay the tax in a POS



You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons

Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2014-04-29 13:12:28 UTC
So basically I want to drop my hisec POS into a stationless system and thus only have the base floor pricing?

Could you for the purposes of this give some pricing?

On a 10 run -4 me -4 pe nanofiber 2 job for a max skill character
and
a 10 run of Hulk at 0 me 0 pe
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#70 - 2014-04-29 13:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
CCP Greyscale wrote:


So.

Starbases are either immune to, or have owner-set, taxes, so that's 10% reduced job installation cost right off the bat.



This definitely seems to imply no tax at a POS? Or in this context is the term Starbase referring to an outpost?
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
#71 - 2014-04-29 13:16:59 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
So basically I want to drop my hisec POS into a stationless system and thus only have the base floor pricing?


You want to drop your POS in a stationless system with AS FEW MOONS AS POSSIBLE.
Only there are very few such places. Might spark conflict...
Dearthair
Goibhniu Industries
#72 - 2014-04-29 13:17:37 UTC
The small bonus of not paying taxes in a POS is probably completely offset by the fuel costs. Unless there are some fairly massive bonuses for POS manufacturing and research, then the whole concept of risk v reward goes out the window. In high sec at least, POS owners are putting the most at risk. We also have the most difficult time moving if the costs of a system increase to unsustainable levels.

In general, this change screws over large manufacturing operations anyway, whether at a POS or not. The larger the operation, the more difficult it becomes to move to greener pastures when costs rise.

NBLID (Not Blue Let It Die), the new motto for miners, manufacturers, and retailers everywhere.

Fujiko MaXjolt
ACME HARDWARE
#73 - 2014-04-29 13:17:38 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
How do faction warfare system control improve their manufacturing and research costs? I may have missed them being addressed.


Indeed you did, they were explicitly mentioned as working something akin to the outpost upgrades, giving 0.9 multiplier per "level"...
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#74 - 2014-04-29 13:18:16 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
Eitak Utrigas wrote:
CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them.
Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd.
As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered.
No one will move their gear from a station again!


U don't pay the tax in a POS



You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons

Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog.



OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#75 - 2014-04-29 13:18:22 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


So.

Starbases are either immune to, or have owner-set, taxes, so that's 10% reduced job installation cost right off the bat.



This definitely seems to imply no tax at a POS?

It is always amusing watching people throw a hissy fit based upon a false assumption. Sometime I think people just skim the Blog without actually understanding anything, and then jump on the forums to complain about some imagined transgression. But that couldn't be possible, surely people couldn't be so stupid right.
Steijn
Quay Industries
#76 - 2014-04-29 13:20:23 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


So.

Starbases are either immune to, or have owner-set, taxes, so that's 10% reduced job installation cost right off the bat.



This definitely seems to imply no tax at a POS?

It is always amusing watching people throw a hissy fit based upon a false assumption. Sometime I think people just skim the Blog without actually understanding anything, and then jump on the forums to complain about some imagined transgression. But that couldn't be possible, surely people couldn't be so stupid right.


as mentioned in the previous post, its manufacturing tax/research taxes we mean, not station taxes.
Hannah Usoko
Seles Deep Space Industries
#77 - 2014-04-29 13:20:29 UTC
Please tell me it will not generate inflation over time. (the price of output is the average of the market prices but the market prices will raise due to the increased manufacturing costs making a new higher average wich is the base of installation cost etc.)
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2014-04-29 13:20:49 UTC
Liner Xiandra wrote:
With production-cost modifiers being all over the place due to all the various factors, this will result in "location, location, location".

The user-interface blog already mentioned that we can check production-cost on various locations from anywhere in the game. If this is to the tune of...

select job, runs etc > select job location > get production cost quote > *yikes* > select new location > get new quote > *still too high* > select new location > get new quote > acceptable quote > run,

...then I hope we have other means of retrieving this information; such as:
- map overlay with (some) modifiers shown
- a panel alá the autopilot/agent which are systembased
- a different panel within the industry window


You will be able to compare "relative" cost of each industry facility in the region. Have a look here:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66065/1/Installations_Tab2.png

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#79 - 2014-04-29 13:21:22 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
Eitak Utrigas wrote:
CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them.
Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd.
As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered.
No one will move their gear from a station again!


U don't pay the tax in a POS



You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons

Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog.



OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied

Yes, but that is not a tax, that is the installation cost to hire all the workers and machinary needed. Two very clearly defined and different aspects of industry. If you want to complain that POS labs have installations costs which are too high, then that is another matter. But you can't really make that judgement as GreyScale has said more info is still to come on POS bonuses for having multiple modules, so best to hold tight for that info to be made available.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2014-04-29 13:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Currently outpost owners have the ability to restrict some or all of the slots to ensure they're open for corp projects. Obviously, with no slots, that's going away, but is it being replaced by anything to "gate" who can use the factory? Can use be limited to specific corps or the like (within the alliance), or is it purely standings-based like the other things you can restrict at a station? (e.g. so you can prevent the cost from rising too high)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.