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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-04-29 12:42:21 UTC
alright, read the whole thing again

i'm a bit underwhelmed by the effect that nullsec stations have. gonna wait for some info on the whole teams thing before i make my final judgement.

the whole formula has a lot of places where it can easily be adjusted to balance this thing better
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2014-04-29 12:42:40 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I understand the pricing for manufacturing. However, I do not understand the pricing for research: what's the output price? Could you give us some examples of what it would cost to (a)add a level of ME to a bpo (b)Make copies of that bpo or (c) run an invention job?


The "output price" where the output is a blueprint is treated as being 2% of the value of whatever the blueprint produces. It's buried in a paragraph halfway down, that probably could've been clearer.


What about copies: is a 50-run copy equal to 100%? It seems like this makes regular research oddly cheap and copying oddly expensive in relation to one another. I'll have to poke at the formula and see what drops out for the usual sort of stuff though.

Related question: how is this formula resolving the market value of rarely sold (e.g. components) items and never sold (supercaps)? Is it using market prices or is it doing a sort of 'base cost' off the minerals?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc
#43 - 2014-04-29 12:43:03 UTC
With production-cost modifiers being all over the place due to all the various factors, this will result in "location, location, location".

The user-interface blog already mentioned that we can check production-cost on various locations from anywhere in the game. If this is to the tune of...

select job, runs etc > select job location > get production cost quote > *yikes* > select new location > get new quote > *still too high* > select new location > get new quote > acceptable quote > run,

...then I hope we have other means of retrieving this information; such as:
- map overlay with (some) modifiers shown
- a panel alá the autopilot/agent which are systembased
- a different panel within the industry window
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#44 - 2014-04-29 12:45:22 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Holy system facilities batman!

Am i right in thinking, everything else being static, that each level of ME/TE research costs the same? it does not get more expensive 'per level' to research to higher levels.


We're scaling higher levels of ME/TE research based on how much longer they take than level 1 (linear relationship). High levels on high-rank blueprints may cost *large* amounts of money, and you may want to shop around extensively before committing one of those.

Harah Noud wrote:
Several questions: hi-sec

1- how do we calculate base run cost in systems with no base ( in high sec ) , according to what I understood it s based on percentage of jobs to gloable jobs, in such case it s very low. Anyways further info would be great!

2- station with no factories, do they affect the base run cost calculation? And will we be able to place jobs in them

3- in POS there is different assembly arrays ( for ammo, for modules...) is the system staying as is? And how will the supposed extra bonus be calculated in this case? ( to get the extra bonus would I need to place 5 small ship arrays, or the different assembly arrays affect the bonus...)

4- so lowest hi sec sys is around 4% while highest null sec is 4% and how many tiers of +1 ME bonus is there in null sec manufacturing stations? Just trying to calculate the min-max cost difference

Thanks


1. We're adding an assumed activity floor, so prices won't actually zero out. It can still be extremely low though, yes.

2. They affect the base cost by a small amount, but you can't put jobs in them. Starbases in the same system benefit from their bonuses though

3. Yes, different arrays for different products. Exactly how the bonuses work is still being pinned down.

4. Lowest hi sec system is close to 0%. Amarr outposts can get up to five line-increase enhancements, so 5% max.

TigerXtrm wrote:

The installation cost is interesting. I suppose we could do a whole lot of predictions and stuff, but ultimately we'll have to see how things flow once the update hits. The current picture of TQ in regards to most used industry systems is very unlikely to stay the same.

Also the only negative thing I have to mention is that POS labs and stuff are being pushed on the back burner... AGAIN. You're revamping the entire industry system but then mention in the blog that you don't actually have a solution for multiple POS labs yet and that there may very well not be one on launch day. That's unacceptable. And I don't use that term lightly when it comes to EVE development, I know you guys have a lot on your plate. But pushing the POS solution backwards is really not an option guys, I hope you realize this.


Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor. The "good" solution is reasonably straightforward, it just requires a chunk of work and adds a fair bit of risk.
Babbet Bunny
#45 - 2014-04-29 12:46:47 UTC
Previously we knew a job would cost x before installing. Will there be a way to see what the multipliers for each different system are without flying to every station?

Now that the job I install today may not cost the same tomorrow.....

Now that all player built items price will increase by 5% after the expansion to compensate all meta 0 module BPO's are worthless. Meta 1-3 items will cost less on the market and are better. Meta 0 will be only good for invention.

Whats that new player? You don't have maxed invention skills to be cost effective in the market?

Better Worlds (tm)
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2014-04-29 12:47:49 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I understand the pricing for manufacturing. However, I do not understand the pricing for research: what's the output price? Could you give us some examples of what it would cost to (a)add a level of ME to a bpo (b)Make copies of that bpo or (c) run an invention job?


The "output price" where the output is a blueprint is treated as being 2% of the value of whatever the blueprint produces. It's buried in a paragraph halfway down, that probably could've been clearer.


What about copies: is a 50-run copy equal to 100%? It seems like this makes regular research oddly cheap and copying oddly expensive in relation to one another. I'll have to poke at the formula and see what drops out for the usual sort of stuff though.

Related question: how is this formula resolving the market value of rarely sold (e.g. components) items and never sold (supercaps)? Is it using market prices or is it doing a sort of 'base cost' off the minerals?


It will likely be per-run, so a 50-run copy becomes 100%, yes. Research costs scale at higher levels though, so it probably swings back a bit there.

Market costs are all done using the system that is used for killmail pricing (and thus used for FW LP payouts), which should have reasonable values for most things already. Some newer items aren't being properly calculated on TQ right now, but we're fixing that.
Steijn
Quay Industries
#47 - 2014-04-29 12:49:44 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor. The "good" solution is reasonably straightforward, it just requires a chunk of work and adds a fair bit of risk.


with the greatest respect, that kind of attitude with regards to POS owners, stinks.
Rust Connor
Industrias PapaCapim
#48 - 2014-04-29 12:51:04 UTC
Could you elaborate more about the ME skill change?
I've spent almost 20% of my character life time to level it to 5, just wanna see how good/bad the decision was. Straight
Temenus Alexander
Alexander Enterprises
#49 - 2014-04-29 12:52:00 UTC
Several others have mentioned the lack of info as to how these changes are going to affect POS owners. Frankly, from what I've read so far, I'm wondering just what the hell I'm supposed to do with my labs now, because I've seen nothing that looks like it will even come close to merely offsetting the cost of fuel and maintenance to run the POS as opposed to just doing all work on stations. I've certainly not seen any advantage to justify 300-500M/month in added costs. So, for me at least, the question becomes why would I want to have a dedicated research POS now? We have thousands of moons opening up in HS, great. Why should I be interested in staking one out? According to the blogs, the only added cost a POS owner is shielded from is the 10% station tax (if they set their own rate to 0%). Big whoop. Unless I've missed something, and if I have I'd greatly appreciate being steered toward it, the only possible means I can see for a HS POS to have any hope whatsoever of turning a profit would be if the moons are also opening up to mining. While that would be nice, it still gives my labs anything more useful to do than take up room in a hangar. At least in the current system I could justify the added cost with the ability to actually get the work done in the first place rather than cooling my heels waiting on a slot to come available. Ugh
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#50 - 2014-04-29 12:53:32 UTC
Weaselior wrote:


However, I'm fairly underwhelmed by the manufacturing slot replacement bonus. The reason is that it's exactly the same as the POS bonus: I can spend 60b on a station, or 300m on a pos. I think it's a little absurd that the absolute pinnacle of manufacturing you can aspire to, spend huge amounts of money to create, and have to defend gives you nothing better than a pos one jump from jita. And that's from a hyper-specialized factory: once you do that you've used up nearly all of your outpost upgrade slots and you've only got one tier 1 left (probably offices). I think that bonus should be increased slightly at the high end (i.e. a tier 2 or 3 upgrade should give 2%) or the bonus given to pos should be reduced somewhat.

While people will claim pos are at risk, they're not: pos assembly arrays don't drop anything from a build in progress. Entity alluded to his "20b pos" in another thread, where if it was attacked he'd lose 20b of manufacturing products. But the thing is, if I bothered to find it and kill it, I'd get none of that: the assembly arrays would act like they were empty since between the build being installed and delivered, they are. So nobody will bother attacking pos unless someone's really pissed them off: it'll be purely for griefing and not for profit.

I can't comment on the value of the research upgrade as I don't understand how research is priced, so I don't know if this is valuable or saves me several whole pennies.



well there are professional hisec pos-bashing corps. if one of these guys targets your pos, its more than likely going to come down. when you take your pos down before you have finished your manufacturing, you lose the minerals. if you are building say 50 frigrates, its not such a big loss to take everything down and put it back up after the wardec. however if you happen to be a freighter or orca builder, you will lose billions if you take your pos down(not including all the time wasted). you will have to risk keeping it up and hopes they are just bluffing or losing all the minerals AND your entire pos setup.

null sec sov stations are already going to receive a 14% bonus on mineral refining that can be applied to manufacturing. thats already 14% less then anyone in hisec is going to spend on manufacturing.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#51 - 2014-04-29 12:57:46 UTC
If you allow me to ask, have you checked how this affects t2 BPO vs BPC manufacturing fees? This also depends on other changes, right, but let's take into account we'll able to do whatever we are able to do here. So, compared to a 30d long job from a tech2 BPO, a tech2 BPC with a limited number of runs will be more expensive. Have you checked numbers how much savings can be done this way, and by this, buffing tech2 BPO owners even more?

Otherwise the stuff seems great, I kinda like the ideas. However, i personally think that standings should affect fees at NPC stations. And also, amarrian outposts should have no fees at all, because those slaves are doing the job, for free ;)
adriaans
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
#52 - 2014-04-29 12:58:27 UTC
1) Does every station in a system cause a discount or only stations that have factories/research facilities? (NPC ones).
2) Can we have an example of how BPC jobs are priced so I am sure I understand it correctly? I hope I am wrong in thinking that invented BPC's will become much more expensive... (I.e. indirect buff to T2 BPO's).
3) Is POS based jobs still faster from time multipliers? (0.65, 0.5, 0.75 respectively for copy, invent, manufact).

----True oldschool solo pvp'er---- My latest vid: Insanity IV
ST Mahan
Doomheim
#53 - 2014-04-29 12:59:09 UTC
Ok, that was a good Dev Blog. There will be interesting developments to Industry and I continue to see that a great deal of work has gone into this upcoming expansion.

It was mentioned that the potential bonuses for multiple arrays at POS's may not be ready for the release. I strongly suggest that this be worked on. I guess we still need to see what bonus's apply at arrays/labs in POS's. Unless I've missed it I have only seen the -5% to manufacturing materials needed at POS arrays. I really think there should be a benefit for multiple arrays at a POS.

I like the concept of the work force in a system. One thought for down the road to add a wrinkle to the idea of a 'lumpy landscape' is to have modifications based on the number of habitable planets in a system; effectively increasing workforce. This could be an interesting connection to Dust; down the road.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#54 - 2014-04-29 13:02:12 UTC
I'm a little worried about "station irrelevance". In any solar system with multiple stations there will be good ones and not so good ones. It would seem like this pricing scheme will make the not-so-good stations irrelevant. Why even have them in the game?

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penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Deepwater Hooligans
#55 - 2014-04-29 13:02:54 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor. The "good" solution is reasonably straightforward, it just requires a chunk of work and adds a fair bit of risk.


Is this post a troll
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#56 - 2014-04-29 13:03:53 UTC
No, it is my new signature

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
Eitak Utrigas
Hydraxis Industries
Twenty Thousand Leagues Out of the SEA.
#57 - 2014-04-29 13:04:11 UTC
CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them.
Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd.
As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered.
No one will move their gear from a station again!
Aareya
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#58 - 2014-04-29 13:04:33 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

Quote:
For each previously-slot-improving outpost research upgrade, you'll similarly get a 0.9x multiplier to research job prices.

For each previously slot-improving manufacturing-related Outpost Improvement, you'll get a 1% bonus to ME instead (we can do that now). This is different because the manufacturing slot upgrades in particular are pretty substantial right now, and installation costs are assumed to be a sufficiently small fraction of final item costs in nullsec that a cost multiplier here seemed underwhelming. We're still looking at the exact bonus here, and the relationship between Amarr and Minmatar outposts in particular, so this may change before it's released.


However, I'm fairly underwhelmed by the manufacturing slot replacement bonus. The reason is that it's exactly the same as the POS bonus: I can spend 60b on a station, or 300m on a pos. I think it's a little absurd that the absolute pinnacle of manufacturing you can aspire to, spend huge amounts of money to create, and have to defend gives you nothing better than a pos one jump from jita. And that's from a hyper-specialized factory: once you do that you've used up nearly all of your outpost upgrade slots and you've only got one tier 1 left (probably offices). I think that bonus should be increased slightly at the high end (i.e. a tier 2 or 3 upgrade should give 2%) or the bonus given to pos should be reduced somewhat.

While people will claim pos are at risk, they're not: pos assembly arrays don't drop anything from a build in progress. Entity alluded to his "20b pos" in another thread, where if it was attacked he'd lose 20b of manufacturing products. But the thing is, if I bothered to find it and kill it, I'd get none of that: the assembly arrays would act like they were empty since between the build being installed and delivered, they are. So nobody will bother attacking pos unless someone's really pissed them off: it'll be purely for griefing and not for profit.

I can't comment on the value of the research upgrade as I don't understand how research

We're probably revisiting the starbase numbers in the near future, which should alleviate at least some of this concern I hope.

Thank you.

In the dev blog, Reprocess All The Things, you had indicated that refining arrays would receive a 52% and 54% efficiency. This is better than both NPC and un-upgraded outposts. However, you gave sov holding entities the opportunity to exceed this efficiency by upgrading their outposts further, with the maximum efficiency achievable as 57% and 60% (non-minmatar, minmatar).

It would be nice if this strategy was made consistent with respect to manufacturing upgrades. This would provide sov holders a manufacturing advantage over non-sov holders whom the latter would only have NPC station or POS as their null sec manufacturing options.

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Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-04-29 13:04:39 UTC
Well other than these points I m happy with the changes

1- a +5% ME bonus for a fully upgraded amarr null sec stations seems high , maybe raise their run cost to compensate?

2- I think it s really important to have the NPC station tax be affected by standings. I hope u could consider doing it with the expansion!

Btw, is the industry implants effects still the same in the new system? Is it calculated above all other bonuses?


Great job
Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-04-29 13:04:50 UTC
Seems pretty good, need to know what affect teams are going to have to fully understand it.

Keep up the good work.

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