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Dev blog: Industry UI

First post
Author
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2014-04-29 01:57:34 UTC
Please add a glyph or tag on icons whenever you have a perfect blueprint now that such a thing exists. This will make it a bit easier to see what blueprints still require research from the inventory screen.

Please make it so that either:

a) I can see ME/TE for blueprints from inventory
b) I can move things from an ME/TE view of industry.

Currently my problem is that I have a view to move blueprints and a view to see the details of blueprints at a glance, but not anything to do both.

Please add item filters to the inventory screen that allow us to specify if a blueprint is a BPO or a BPC. ME and TE filters would be nice as well.

Also I concur that we're going to need something to indicate how much we're short on things when we go to manufacture.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#222 - 2014-04-29 02:35:08 UTC
Geezelbub wrote:

And that's tonite's brilliant comment on the new industrial GAME CHANGING UI from the FW inteilligensia. Lol

edit: I mean this create contract stuff is hard!!!! Roll


So I assume you ranted against putting pirate ships in the market for fear of dumbing down the game too? And railed against having officer mods in there? And faction ammo?

Seriously dude.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2014-04-29 02:54:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Will it treat the pos as one big storage?


This requires a POS rework and so no this will not happen for the summer release, but we agree that would be preferable.

:argh:

you don't know how irritating it is trying to fit the exact right proportion of minerals in a component assembly array to let you get a nice 100-run component job, you've got to move each mineral individually and it is a pain in the ass

please to be increasing the capacity of the component assembly array to get around that tia

…or, even better, make POSes work as a cohesive unit with a single storage capacity comprised of all the modules activated at the POS. Same with all other capabilities you can attach to it.

Ok, so slots are going away, but let's use them as an example anyway: instead of getting a separate lab with 3 ME slots at 25k m³, we should simply get +3 slots and +25k to what's already there so that the POS, as a single installation, now has (say) 12 slots at a total storage space of 475k.


I, generally, like this idea, but they're going to have to figure out what gets dropped when you blow up something that represents part of the whole.

So I can blow up your Lab, but if all it did was add capacity, what actually gets dropped? This is the fundamental issue. POSes are built up and I can look at their space as an abstraction and even move stuff around in that abstraction, but they're not blown up as an abstraction.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2014-04-29 03:39:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Quintessen
Huang Mo wrote:
Pretty UI. It looks like a great improvement over the current interface.

I only have one objection: Your use of blink and blink like effects as in the empty and unavailable states for blueprints. The human vision system react strongly to blink effects (is that a Tiger in the grass?) so blink should only be used when attention is absolutely needed here and now. A slot that is simply empty doesn't warrant that.


I agree with this point from a UX perspective, but they can be useful if they don't repeat, bringing attention to the fact that they are necessary. But once they don't repeat continuously, it's perfectly find to have infrequent animation -- say 3 repetitions.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2014-04-29 03:42:23 UTC
Theng Hofses wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
TonoRocker wrote:
What about manufacturing using multiple BP at the same time, this would save tons of clicks. When you manufacturing Fuel blocks for example, i use 10BPC, it would be nice to select them all, ricght click, manufacture. ***Fairy dust***

Or maybe if im building a T2 ship for example, you can start the construction jobs needed for all the components from that T2 ship BP. ***Sparkles****

"Less clicks, more magic. " -TR 2014

Thanks.


For now you will need 10 quick clicks, the interface can be used with the keyboard now so click down arrow, and then enter to submit. Down and submit. etc


Which is the hallmark of an inefficient design and sub-optimal execution. Why use a computer and programming when you can make a human do a repetitive job?


However, it must be said that not everyone does things repetitiously and selective repeatability is actually very useful to a subset of the industry population. This feels like a good compromise UI where people who want batch don't quite get it, but clicks are reduced. And people for whom batch wasn't that useful will still get easily repeatable jobs.
Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#226 - 2014-04-29 04:13:43 UTC
Thanks for listening to my concerns over the icons vs. spreadsheet.
Jagoff Haverford
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#227 - 2014-04-29 05:30:38 UTC
A very minor point, but when listing materials could you please add in the commas that appear every three digits. As an old guy whose eyes aren't what they once were, I'm kind of sick of leaning in, putting my face inches away from the screen, and counting the digits aloud to see if the number needed is 4,150,000 or 41,500,000. I've actually been known to get it really wrong, and read it as 415,000,000.

Please? Can we have commas?
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2014-04-29 05:35:17 UTC
I'm a little surprised to see so little reaction to this blog post here.

That said, I have some feedback and questions.

1) Will it be possible to expand the window vertically to allow for more items in the grid at the bottom of the screen?

2) Please make it possible to build from POS personal hangars once you do your POS rework if such a concept still exists.

3) As said before, please ensure it's possible to differentiate between different items in the new UI using their actual names without having to hover. I should not have to guess what each

4) Since you aren't handling invention and reverse engineering during Summer what will happen to the existing S&I interface?

5) At some point are icons for existing products going to be considered for revamp? Are we ever going to get higher resolution icons or glyphs? I still have trouble with Megacyte and Noxcium at a glance.

6) Are you going to be changing the S&I icon while you're at it to bring it in line with the new look (something closer to ISIS)?

7) It would be nice to be able to right-click on a required component that is manufacturable and find its relevant blueprints in the view below.

8) It would also be nice to be able to right-click on an item in that view and select "find in assets" where it would open up the assets screen and select that as the search text. (Frankly, though, that would be good everywhere).

9) Are we going to be able to easily tell what is affected by increased costs and what isn't? Or is it possible with a -100% blueprint to actually need two input ships for a T2 blueprint?

10) How is rounding of inputs from blueprint quality going to be handled? Down, Up, Off?

11) Since we can put blueprints from the market (and possibly) other places will it be possible to adjust the ME/TE as planning tool to see it will affect the result?

12) How are profitability numbers going to be calculated?

13) The different mock-ups and code-in-progress screens have different placement for the job cost and time. Where are they going to end up?

14) Would it be possible to put the input group glyphs on top of the actual items in question in the various views that don't have them? I would love to be able to know what kind of item it is at a glance without having to look at the market. Here it would be redundant, but in the unified inventory it would be a god-send.

15) It seems somewhat counter intuitive that I was to un-fill the missing materials only to have the required materials fill completely when all pre-requisites are met. It makes a little more sense if it's always progressing towards a full circle and the center icon changes once you finally get everything you need. You already have visual input on the left as to what's missing. I'm going to want to fill the thing, not un-fill it.

16) I really like the big "START" button. More so than, what I'm guessing are WIP screenshots that have "Start production". In fact that whole bar in the visual target is much better than the one in the WIP screenshots (i.e. blueprints and installations). I'm especially concerned over the size of the buttons in the center.

Thank you for all your work on this. While I wasn't technically un-subbed, these changes are likely going to get me playing again. And for that, I'm very grateful.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#229 - 2014-04-29 05:37:11 UTC
What will we see in the big preview window in case we build ammo (projectile or laser) or T2 components (Fernite armor plates or Laser Focusing crystals, for example), or other things that don't have a 3D model?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#230 - 2014-04-29 06:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Quintessen wrote:
So I can blow up your Lab, but if all it did was add capacity, what actually gets dropped? This is the fundamental issue. POSes are built up and I can look at their space as an abstraction and even move stuff around in that abstraction, but they're not blown up as an abstraction.

That's true enough. On the other hand, since drops are already chance-based, it's not entirely inconceivable to just expand on that and make storage usage a part of the drop/destroyed calculation.

E.g. when a module is destroyed, it is [volume lost] / [total volume] chance that any given item stack was considered to be inside that module. If it was, do a standard drop/destroy die roll.

The biggest problem then rather becomes to keep track of what counts as “total volume” — specialist containers such as ship hangars should perhaps not count towards the total for standard item storage, since a XLSMA would be able to save pretty much all the blueprints in the game that way in spite of not allowing blueprints to be stored there. Lol
Dirty Wrench
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2014-04-29 06:22:00 UTC
I'd look carefuly at this part....

"When you first drag a blueprint in, the job runs will automatically go up to the maximum amount you can do based on the amount of required items you have"

Just because I have enough tri/pye/mex/iso/noc/zyd/meg in my hanger to make 20,000,000,000 x 125 mm railgun I doesn't mean I actually want to make that many.

The default number of runs shouldn't be based on the "raw materials" I have sitting in my personal hanger. After all just about everything sits in my personal hanger !

I see a lot of excess items being made if the default value is simply based on how much raw stuff you have sitting in a hanger.

People won't check the number of runs they're about to pump out and will "waste" a lot of minerals.
zahter
Shayol Ghul Forge
#232 - 2014-04-29 06:45:31 UTC
CCP, thanks for the new UI and new industry rewamp in general. I areally appreciate the nice work you showed us. It is really promissing. However I have some fears about increased click/drags rather than a decrease.

You have a reasonable idea about increasing risk of loss by forcing us put blueprints in pos. I can understand that. But when we have to work with blueprints in pos we have to work with different assembly arrays and labs. If we want to work on a blueprint, all the required mats should be in the same container. Thats a very huge difference between station and a pos.

Old system;
blueprints are in station corp hangar. right click, copy, select pos lab in the same system. accept job. When job finished, warp to pos, take copies, bring them back to station and put in corp hangars respective division. right click, select invention, select pos lab, accept.
Why do I need to bring copy back to station, because I want to use all slots of my pos labs not just the one i finished the copy in.
When invention job is finished, i go to my pos, collect t2 copies, bring back to station, and start manufacturing from corp hangar.
I have to use 3 different pos arrays for manufacturing a t2 module starting from a t1 bpo.
Multiply this process with 20 different modules. Every time I go to pos, I am checking labs and taking T1/T2 copies from all pos labs, bringing them to station. So i can work from a single hangar and reach my all my pos facilities.

New system;
(based on what i understood and what I read on ccp replies to feedbacks)
I put bpo into pos lab, open new UI and start cop job. When job is finished, I take copies and have to distribute them to other pos labs. Why do i need to distribute? Because bluerpints should be present in those labs when i start invention jobs. I already distributed mats before, when i planned my monthly production cycle. Everytime a copy job finished, I have to distribute copies again. Multiply this with 20 different modules I want to produce. I have 400 copies to distribute to my labs. After lots of drag/drops I finished the task and started inventions with much faster new UI.
After 1 hour the first batch of invention jobs finished, lets assume I had %50 chance and 20 jobs available with my characters. I will have 10 t2 bpc in pos labs, I collect them and distribute them to my assembly arrays. Because bpc should present in assembly array to start the job. May be I am too lazy, wait for all 400 invention jobs finished and then collect them. Then I will have 200 t2 bpc to distribute, 10 for each item. I have to drag/drop bpc for a long time to make sure everything is in right place then I start my new UI.

The new UI is great if you are using only station. You can easily select, input/output hangar divisions, fast work very fewer clicks. If you are using pos for your industry, you have to distribute bpc/bpo to every array you want to work. You have to do it after every job is finished. You can wait for all those jobs finished but a monster total number of drags/drop trask is waiting for you. We are used to this type of task when we are distributing mats to lab and assembly arrays at the start of our production plans. I make montly plans so, I only have to stand this tidious distribution task once a month. New system forces me to do it every day if I want to continue production.

The main problem is we will not be able to start job if req mats is in a different pos array than bpc. Unified pos inventory will not be possible in any foreseeable future. Also, there is no reply if we will be able to link pos arrays. If the new system come as it is shown, more tidious tasks waiting for us.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#233 - 2014-04-29 08:05:12 UTC
CCP Arrow wrote:

  • The system will automatically go to the max runs supported by the blueprint if you have enough requirements, or go up to the amount it can handle with the requirements you have.


  • And for BPOs this will be the amount that the material stock allows, right? BPOs do not have run limits, just a limit on the maxruns for copies. Please clarifiy this, this is very crucial for us. There are stuff like the nanite paste, which's BP has a maxruns of 15, but it's usually manufactured in thousands of runs. If you don't see the problem yourself, please start manufacturing around 10K runs of paste weekly, and you'll see :)
    Dirty Wrench
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #234 - 2014-04-29 08:19:10 UTC
    I think they might be introducing a max runs for manufacturing on a BPO.

    I vaguely remember reading something like this somewhere but there's been a lot of things posted and it gets blurry.
    Shamus en Divalone
    The Clandestine Forge
    #235 - 2014-04-29 08:24:42 UTC
    Looks really good so far but can I ask again if there is going to be a way of copying a list of required mats to clipboard?

    To reduce the time i spend writing stuff down or using out of game tools?

    Thx
    Banko Mato
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #236 - 2014-04-29 08:32:19 UTC
    Barune Darkor wrote:
    The UI should allow you to pull materials from a corporate hanger array anchored at a pos to install a job in an assembly line anchored at the same pos. Better to use your hanger divisions to supply your manufactureres than to constantly move materials around to different assembly lines.


    Quoted to emphasize the dire need of this feature. CCP, make it happen!
    Dropping the ability to use a BP located at a station remotely is fine, as long as we get something to make up for the crappy array/lab design. And don't start with simply increasing storage space of those modules, it doesn't solve the core issue! As mentioned before and pointed out by others, reaction modules and silos can already be "linked". Do the same with all consuming modules, even if it requires messing with the awful POS code. Manufacturers across new eden will be thankful for eternity ;)

    Again, to clarify my point:
    Unifying module storage in a POS into one big pool is not possible as stated by devs in this thread. Well, not before the POS code gets completely reworked, at least.
    BUT me, myself, and probably a few thousands other POS users DO want to dump all BPCs/mats/comps/stuff/datacores/decs etc. into one corp hangar and manage/start jobs from there. And honestly this is such fundamental a feature that it should have been implemented from day 1 of POS introduction ^^
    CCP Arrow
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #237 - 2014-04-29 10:42:45 UTC
    Thank you all for your feedback, I am collecting everything into a list which the team will look at and give input on regarding solutions and iterations. I will report back with the results but it might have to be after Fanfest though.

    CCP Arrow   |   Director of User Experience   |   EVE Online   |   @CCP_Arrow

    SpacePhenix
    DKY Pharmaceuticals
    #238 - 2014-04-29 12:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: SpacePhenix
    Issues with removing produce from station at pos…!!!
    There are some pos issues that have to be addressed before you can remove produce from station at pos.

    Nr 1. In a wardec situation you have to remove all blueprints at pos = cansel jobs. Cancel jobs at labs/assembly array/reactor has to give your spent materials back and time stamp on canceled jobs must be reset during cancel not unancoring and ancoring structures like it is today. Also the time you spent up until the cancel have to be given back. If this is not possible, production will dye all together. A producer needs to be able to secure his blueprints to have a chance of making a profitable production. If production is not profitable there is no reason to do production.

    Nr 2. If you remove the produce from station at pos feature. The whole idea of having a corp office dyes completely. There is absolutely no idea of spending x amount of isk a month of having a corp office if you remove that feature.

    Like I have mentioned before and will mention again. CCP you need to start playing eve along with the rest of us to have any idea of what we have to deal with in the “real EVE”. It doesn’t help sitting on a protected server handing out the skills needed and testing out stuff when the “real EVE” demands a lot more. And remember to make enough isk for a plex each month for each charr.
    Miyama Okanata
    Otelen Camping Squad
    #239 - 2014-04-29 12:28:42 UTC
    CCP Nullarbor wrote:


    We have some designs for how a batch system would work but it does add more complexity to the UI in order to explain what a batch is and whether or not you can submit it / how much it costs etc. We are going to see how efficient the UI can be without it and then re-assess if it is worth trying to add some additional helpers in for mass producers.

    If the difference is 10 seconds vs 3 seconds to fill your characters quota of industry jobs though then I'm not as worried about the time it takes. It is still a significant improvement over the current UI.

    This is not the last discussion we will have about this feature request though.


    I think you misunderstand the issue here. I'll explain on the example of Warrior IIs. One run of invention takes 2 hours and produces a 10-run Warrior II BPC. Having 10 lines available and roughly 50% chance means I will have something like 5 BPCs x 10 = 50 drones produced from these. And each 2 hours I will have to login again and start another invention run. In the meantime when I'll have 10 T2 BPCs available, I'll start a 10 lines production run. That will take 4 hr 26 min. And after that time I will have to login again and start another production run. This gives me 100 Warrior IIs per 4hr 26min. Subtracting 8 hours for sleep, I can make 3-4 runs total. 400 of these will literally sell in seconds on Jita and I will receive ~60mil isk total. That is not mass production at all!

    The key issue here is having to login every 2hrs to start another invention run and every 4hr 26min to start another production run. The light drones have good profit and I would do it if not for this constant logging in to start another run.
    Audrey Koshka
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #240 - 2014-04-29 19:42:49 UTC
    Miyama Okanata wrote:
    CCP Nullarbor wrote:


    We have some designs for how a batch system would work but it does add more complexity to the UI in order to explain what a batch is and whether or not you can submit it / how much it costs etc. We are going to see how efficient the UI can be without it and then re-assess if it is worth trying to add some additional helpers in for mass producers.

    If the difference is 10 seconds vs 3 seconds to fill your characters quota of industry jobs though then I'm not as worried about the time it takes. It is still a significant improvement over the current UI.

    This is not the last discussion we will have about this feature request though.


    I think you misunderstand the issue here. I'll explain on the example of Warrior IIs. One run of invention takes 2 hours and produces a 10-run Warrior II BPC. Having 10 lines available and roughly 50% chance means I will have something like 5 BPCs x 10 = 50 drones produced from these. And each 2 hours I will have to login again and start another invention run. In the meantime when I'll have 10 T2 BPCs available, I'll start a 10 lines production run. That will take 4 hr 26 min. And after that time I will have to login again and start another production run. This gives me 100 Warrior IIs per 4hr 26min. Subtracting 8 hours for sleep, I can make 3-4 runs total. 400 of these will literally sell in seconds on Jita and I will receive ~60mil isk total. That is not mass production at all!

    The key issue here is having to login every 2hrs to start another invention run and every 4hr 26min to start another production run. The light drones have good profit and I would do it if not for this constant logging in to start another run.


    Except the reason they have such good profit is exactly because of the short run time requiring constant logging in. T2 module invention in general has better isk/hr than T2 ammo for exactly this reason. A 'job queue' that let you schedule jobs in series would drive those profits down. It's a tough situation - a quality of life improvement would hurt margins because the margins are based upon a crappy quality of life. :)