Market Discussions

On the other hand copying T2 BPO and manufacturing from BPCs will require more clicking.

After few months of T2 invention/production I realized that it might possible that people buy T2 BPOs mostly for the reduced amount of clicking it requires.... ;)

Not likely. Invention needs to use those same copy slots.

MDD

Smart T2 BPO owners will copy in highsec POSes on alts that are untraceable (if their main is known/suspected to own T2 BPOs). Those alts will be in unremarkable 1-person corps just like the thousands of other 1-person corps in highsec that have research POSes, and the POS will be in an undesirable location (not close to trade hubs, etc).

Ask around for what merc groups charge for highsec large POS removal (usually ~1b if the POS is expected to be undefended). Would you spend a billion blowing up an unremarkable POS on the hope that it is one of the few POSes with a high value blueprint in it? Not without considerable intel.

The BPO is at risk while in active transport from the POS to the station, however.

If I was fairly sure that "Climate Industries Inc" (a 1-person alt corp) were copying a Mackinaw BPO at their POS in Mirilene (a fairly unimportant system 5j from Dodixie that's not likely to be in high demand), I might well pay mercs to attack the POS and keep cloaky eyes on grid the whole time, watching for any attempt to rescue a BPO and ready to interrupt it.

However, this is something you probably wouldn't even do if you thought there was a 50% chance that Climate Industries Inc had a lower value BPO (say Null M) in their station. It's a massive undertaking.

You forgot that proteus can also be cloaky with that tank. Usually its 500k EHP with "cheap" fit.
And also off-grid instas are usefull.

If I had a T2 BPO after these changes I would have it moved to a system with copy slots 12 jumps from a trade hub and make my copies there. Why risk a BPO like this in a POS where you have to pay for and haul ice, log in everyday to check for a wardec and all the other issues with POS's when you can safely make copies in stations away from trade hubs and save a ton over paying for a POS and fuel.

If you run 10 copy jobs for each of your three toons per day AND for some reason the cost for each job averages 100k isk, you can still run 24/7 for a month and only have to pay 90 million which saves you over buying ice for a medium POS which costs 180 million a month.

Can the cost of running jobs 12 to 15 jumps from trade hubs really go as high as 100k? If it did, new players would never get into industry and that is not what CCP is going for here by making industry easier to understand but only allowing 10 levels of research over the existing system.

Even if you have intel that Joe Pilot owns five BPOs and sells copies of them, I expect what is actually happening is this:

- Joe Pilot runs Industrial Corp #3345 and they have a POS with a single mobile lab and a lot of hardeners/guns/ewar that has no T2 BPOs in it but instead runs much less important jobs
- Joanne Pilot runs "Rarr Rarr Pirate Corp" and has a POS 6 jumps away with a single mobile lab, lots of hardeners/guns/ewar that actually does all of the copying for Joe Pilot. There's no in-game way to link these accounts, and while Joanne Pilot's corp has a fairly intimidating name, 'she' never actually makes enemies.
- Finally, when Joanne Pilot finishes her copy jobs, she gives the BPCs via untraceable means (safespot jetcanning) to Joanna Pilot, who then gives them to Joe Pilot, so that noone ever notices Joe Pilot and Joanne Pilot spending much time in the same system together.



So all you get if you wardec Industrial Corp #3345 is a chance at looting the Talos BPO that Joe Pilot was copying on the side.

NPC station speed copy facilities will not produce runs faster than current POS speed manufacturing facilities. Because the POS has a speed bonus (currently at least) and the NPC station does not.

The only way to increase production is to make more runs of copies, which is going to require a POS or an outpost. Both involving some risk.

If you decide to play it safe and keep your T2 BPO in an NPC station, you will be getting a smaller output than you currently can, with increased job costs and a small increase in margin generated by the waste changes.

There is a T2 BPO buff here, but it's only accessible to those that are prepared to take some risks.

The increase in margin from the waste changes is not small for many BPOs

I assure you, I'm not overlooking any of the incomming changes.

The current state of the Teams feature will give a maximum of 10% improvement to copy speed if you get the best possible narrow bonus to the exact type of BPO you are using. This will be accompanied by an additional cost for bringing in the team to your system and an additional cost for utilising the team on each appropriate job.

The first draft of those changes suggested bringing copy times down to 6.25% under manufacturing times. Negative feedback was received and then it was indicated that this would have to be revised. The fanfest industry panel reinforced this by stating that T2 BPO copying speed would have to be toned back down to avoid all manner of problems.

At present a T2 BPO holder that chooses to efficiently produce at zero risk to their BPO will use a single manufacturing slot in a POS array to produce their product. This will yield a 33% increase in yield (0.75 time) over a current station slot and give them control over slot availability and pricing.

With the first draft changes in place (the ones that will not be shipping, but are all we have to look at) that T2 BPO holder will copy their T2 BPO in station at basic speed, which can then be enhanced by implants (5% max), teams (10% max) and whatever fundamental copy time improvement CCP leave in (6.25% now, likely to be nothing at best on release). All of these bonuses come with a bundle of additional costs and problems.

Thereafter they must produce from the T2 copy in an NPC station or at a POS, both options involve more costs but neither result in increased productivity.

From a T2 BPO owner's perspective, that is not a buff. That is an unknown variance in productivity from current (likely negative, possibly very slightly positive) accompanied by a wide selection of costs, concerns and lost opportunities.

These changes are too complicated and too provisional for it to be worth arguing over. Plus discussing T2 BPOs in general has a habit of bringing out the worst in EVE players, worse even than discussing inflation with a side order of afk cloaking.