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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#381 - 2014-04-28 23:48:45 UTC
princess minervia wrote:
Well folks, from what I am reading yet another entire sector of this game is pretty much gone for the small independent corp. Those of us who have been assembling and researching a large BPO library seem to be S.O.L. since years of research will be rendered next to worthless in one mathematical ME/PE patch that will just max out a large portion of our library.

Buff to the T2 BPO "old guard" crowd. Check.
Nert to the small independents in Hisec. Check.





So the "small corp" is whining that those with "large collections" are getting nerfed? There seems to be a hole in your logic.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2014-04-28 23:48:56 UTC
Sanity check. Few if any skills required to copy, and can be done on trial account, right?

Has CCP accidentally created "useful" trial accounts?


I still don't buy that when they sat down to think about this release, they goal was to to have people set up single player corps to crank out BPCs at super hardened, high sec, large POS.... a massive click fest of log-ins and outs, BPC delieveries.


I'm guessing "lock down" slipped thier mind, and now it is all "Oh, too late in the Agile cycle to add "select facility" to the new UI.

Suddenly... oh yeah.... we indented to have all industrialists go insane from the tedious log-in, deliver copy, install copy, close, log-ing, deliver, install. close, log-in, install, close....

Was someone seriously all like "We don't like that we created game mechanics that made BPOs reasonible for use in a corp that had more than one actual player, let's change the mechancs so that everyone has to create alt corps to crank out BPCs to protect their BPOs from corp theft.." and others were all like "Yeah! Logging in and out over and over will be so AWESOME, let's make that a game mechanic!"


DK Anaroth
Border Industrial Limited
#383 - 2014-04-28 23:50:28 UTC
Rather than worrying about getting the perfect ME baseline values to match what they were before the change, I think it makes more sense to worry about the low ME values.

As it stands with a 10/9 multiplier on the materials, the values for a "baseline" ME 0 blueprint will be going up by a 1/99 before the funky rounding. Why not just call the current ME 0 requirements the new baseline values (so have a increase of 10% to give the new baseline) . For ME > 1, you're going to have to find the appropriate match anyway no matter what the baseline adjustment is.

Assuming negative ME values correspond to -10xthe value in the new system, invention material costs may go up a bit. A ME -4 blueprint corresponded to a 150% multiplier under the old system, and would be at -40% ME under the new system about 10/9*1.4 = 155.56% which is likely to lead to increased material costs for inventors. With my 10% baseline change this would be 154% which is a bit better. Of course you can customise the percentages for each decryptor, but they would look a little funny.
Maybe it's time to remove some of the material advantages that the T2 BPOs and BPCs have over the invented copies.



Marsan
#384 - 2014-04-28 23:55:45 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Odd question, but does this mean that researched BPCs, now having defined levels, could be sold directly on the market since there are only a static number of ME/TE combinations for each BPC?


Please oh please can we just put researched BPOs and BPCs on the market. Buying BPC and BPO from contracts makes me want to kill myself.

PS- For the love of Dog with the BPCs just make each copy an item. That way I don't have 30 stacks of 20 run copies of a given BPC. Instead I have 1 stack of 600 BPCs. If I need to make just 5 of a given item I can just drop 5 copies into my cargo hold instead of hauling a 20 run copy out, and having it sit around unused.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#385 - 2014-04-29 00:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Theo Sotken
Medalyn Isis wrote:

For the life of me, I don't see why those dumb people who bought them, or even those who over researched for there own use, should receive any special treatment other than being told to HTFU.


So just about everyone involved in industry at the moment is dumb. Its a point of view I suppose.
The problem is with HTFU is that most players are are already 'hardened' and some little pipsqueak saying that is pretty irrelevant. Most players will continue until the expansion is released and then make their decisions then.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#386 - 2014-04-29 00:03:33 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
(i am a capital producer, you see)

Actually, you not a mere capital producer. You are also "Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division".

And, regardless of what other players say about you personally, and about the Goons, you folks are, without a doubt, the absolute best at financially exploiting any changes that CCP makes to the game, particularly those changes for which CCP has not fully considered all of the possible ramifications or domino effects.

So, quite honestly, any change of which you approve, probably deserves a much closer examination by the CCP devs.... :)


The ones the be the most wary of are the ones we say nothing on.

Yeah, CCP should take a closer look at those, too... lol.

Might be safer if CCP simply didn't change anything. :)
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#387 - 2014-04-29 00:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I have a Charon BPO at ME 9. Perfect is ME 19.

If I research them to ME 10 now they'll be upgraded to ME 10%.

The people that spent twice as long researching are penalized GREATLY.

Check your maths CCP.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#388 - 2014-04-29 00:26:26 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
...unnecessary amounts of research and wasting your time ...

Actually, you know this isn't true. There is a widely held perception that BPOs, and thus BPCs, with higher ME/PE are worth more, and this perception creates reality.

You can see this in the BPC contract market, where players routinely pay more for BPCs with ME/PE values far exceeding "perfect".

For the life of me, I don't see why those dumb people who bought them, or even those who over researched for there own use, should receive any special treatment other than being told to HTFU.

Because they *do* have actual value in the game, as is easily proven by tracking the number of over-researched BPCs sold on contracts, and their sale price.

In RL business, we know that perception is often much more important than facts. This is the reason why people frequently pay more for one brand name over another, despite the fact that the two products are identical and made by the same factory in China.

I'm willing to bet that darn near every player in EVE has been guilty of this particular sin, at one time or another (except, ofc, for myself...lol).
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#389 - 2014-04-29 00:29:45 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I have a Charon BPO at ME 9. Perfect is ME 19.

If I research them to ME 10 now they'll be upgraded to ME 0%

The people that spent twice as long researching are penalized GREATLY.

Check your maths CCP.


Are you serious? The dev blog clearly states: Every BPO at ME 10 or higher gets set to the maximum of ME 10% after the change. You're actually getting rewarded here. The only ones getting "penalized" are those for some reason loved big numbers so much they wasted "effort" on insanely over-researching their blueprints.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#390 - 2014-04-29 00:30:41 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I have a Charon BPO at ME 9. Perfect is ME 19.

If I research them to ME 10 now they'll be upgraded to ME 0%

The people that spent twice as long researching are penalized GREATLY.

Check your maths CCP.



No, the people that are being penalized greatly are the ones that join the game next year, and will need to spend 4-5 times longer researching than you have (and over 2x longer than the people that currently own ME 19 ones) in order to get a perfect BPO.

The people that now own an ME 19 Charon BPO have had the use of that BPO for years AND will wind up with a post-change BPO that would take as long to research as an ME 43 would now.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#391 - 2014-04-29 00:34:30 UTC
IIIMAPOBOgKA wrote:
What about BPOs like Moros, which is perfect at ME 6. After the patch it will be less than perfect and still need ton of work to be perfected again ?

That does'nt seem right


Along with medium rigs in which most, if not all are perfect at ME 4
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#392 - 2014-04-29 00:35:00 UTC
Now is definitely the time to look at T2 BPOs and either removing them or re-introducing them to the game. I can tell you that this is a pain point with people who I've known IRL that hate this aspect of manufacturing and contributed (among other issues) to them leaving the game.


If T2 BPOs don't provide that big of an advantage over those who invent, then it shouldn't be a problem to re-introduce them in some way.

If they DO provide an advantage, then it's unfair to the current players who are unable to obtain them without massive billions of isk to buy them from current owners.


It's worth a discussion.
Proton Power
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#393 - 2014-04-29 00:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Proton Power
One thing I find people missing about T2 BPO's:

Nobody will produce T2 BPO's via POS anymore, meaning they are going to lose 25% production. So while yes if they now install copy jobs and multiple install jobs they can get a 6% more advantage, they are still down 19% and doing more work.

Meaning:

Invention will have to fill that gap of 19 to 25%, so say 22% if half the people copy and the other half don't. This helps invention.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#394 - 2014-04-29 00:41:41 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
One thing I find people missing about T2 BPO's:

Nobody will produce T2 BPO's via POS anymore, meaning they are going to lose 25% production. So while yes if they now install copy jobs and multiple install jobs they can get a 6% more advantage, they are still down 19% and doing more work.

Meaning:

Invention will have to fill that gap of 19 to 25%, so say 22% if half the people copy and the other half don't. This helps invention.

The option will still exist. If you're too chickenshit to take it, you will be outcompeted by someone who will.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Proton Power
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#395 - 2014-04-29 00:42:25 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Now is definitely the time to look at T2 BPOs and either removing them or re-introducing them to the game. I can tell you that this is a pain point with people who I've known IRL that hate this aspect of manufacturing and contributed (among other issues) to them leaving the game.


If T2 BPOs don't provide that big of an advantage over those who invent, then it shouldn't be a problem to re-introduce them in some way.

If they DO provide an advantage, then it's unfair to the current players who are unable to obtain them without massive billions of isk to buy them from current owners.


It's worth a discussion.


I am guessing CCP wishes they never introduced T2 BPO's, but they also know they would have an amazing amount of people unsub if they just took them away. People have spent billions of isk to get just a few.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#396 - 2014-04-29 00:43:19 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
One thing I find people missing about T2 BPO's:

Nobody will produce T2 BPO's via POS anymore, meaning they are going to lose 25% production. So while yes if they now install copy jobs and multiple install jobs they can get a 6% more advantage, they are still down 19% and doing more work.

Meaning:

Invention will have to fill that gap of 19 to 25%, so say 22% if half the people copy and the other half don't. This helps invention.


Another thing they miss: T2 BPOs were last introduced in Revelation I. Everything, every T2 module or ship introduced afterwards (like all HICs in Trinity, for example), doesn't have a T2-BPO weighing it down. If you people care that much about T2-BPOs, just move into a market where they don't exist, problem solved.
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#397 - 2014-04-29 00:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Destitute Tehol Beddict
Issue #1

Time involved from going to 0-10 ME/PE seems a bit long especially for new players compared to getting to same post patch ME/PE with current research times (with the relevant conversions***)?

Issue #2

T2 BPOs... Please just get rid of them or nerf them.

Reimburse NPC price; give a max run copy

Loot Buying service: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397

Coras Aldeland
K32 Industries
#398 - 2014-04-29 00:55:35 UTC
Holy crap! I hope the final product is more simplified than the path you're taking to get there is!
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#399 - 2014-04-29 00:57:58 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
I am guessing CCP wishes they never introduced T2 BPO's, but they also know they would have an amazing amount of people unsub if they just took them away. People have spent billions of isk to get just a few.

No, you would hear a lot of screaming, but you would not see many unsubs.

Over the years, the useful T2 BPOs have been collected and are held by a rather small number of older players. And, the majority of those players are so heavily invested in the game that they won't quit, unless CCP decides to reset everyone back to noob status.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#400 - 2014-04-29 01:00:30 UTC
No one is quitting over any of this except maybe Mr. 'I literally spent :10bux: on PLEX for BPOs'

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them