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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

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Valterra Craven
#361 - 2014-04-28 23:11:43 UTC
I'm going to keep asking this very simple question in every blog until it gets answered.

What the hell are you guys going to do with the Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory to ensure that it stays roughly at the same price point it is now. AKA not making them useless and not making them OP.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#362 - 2014-04-28 23:12:48 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm going to keep asking this very simple question in every blog until it gets answered.

What the hell are you guys going to do with the Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory to ensure that it stays roughly at the same price point it is now. AKA not making them useless and not making them OP.

I think everyone is waiting for the cost scaling blog before getting too concerned about pos module costs.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Valterra Craven
#363 - 2014-04-28 23:14:28 UTC
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm going to keep asking this very simple question in every blog until it gets answered.

What the hell are you guys going to do with the Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory to ensure that it stays roughly at the same price point it is now. AKA not making them useless and not making them OP.

I think everyone is waiting for the cost scaling blog before getting too concerned about pos module costs.


I'm not everyone, these are very very special modules. If these get nerfed its a huge penalty to the Caldari Epic line rewards, which may make them not worth running.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#364 - 2014-04-28 23:18:57 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm going to keep asking this very simple question in every blog until it gets answered.

What the hell are you guys going to do with the Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory to ensure that it stays roughly at the same price point it is now. AKA not making them useless and not making them OP.


I'll check into this tomorrow.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#365 - 2014-04-28 23:19:51 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm going to keep asking this very simple question in every blog until it gets answered.

What the hell are you guys going to do with the Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory to ensure that it stays roughly at the same price point it is now. AKA not making them useless and not making them OP.

I think everyone is waiting for the cost scaling blog before getting too concerned about pos module costs.


I'm not everyone, these are very very special modules. If these get nerfed its a huge penalty to the Caldari Epic line rewards, which may make them not worth running.


While I feel your pain, and agree something should be done to protect specific issues like yours, today there have been winners (T2 BPO holders) and losers (Capital Ship and Component BPC creators and sellers).

The module / Epic Arc you are describing is one of the many unintended consequences and forgotten issues that massive changes like this create.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#366 - 2014-04-28 23:24:06 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
today there have been winners (T2 BPO holders)

You may want to catch up with the thread.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#367 - 2014-04-28 23:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
...unnecessary amounts of research and wasting your time ...

Actually, you know this isn't true. There is a widely held perception that BPOs, and thus BPCs, with higher ME/PE are worth more, and this perception creates reality.

You can see this in the BPC contract market, where players routinely pay more for BPCs with ME/PE values far exceeding "perfect".

If they were over researched so that one could sell them to dumb people who don't understand how ME works, then you should have already achieved the value from them by selling them off.

For the life of me, I don't see why those dumb people who bought them, or even those who over researched for there own use, should receive any special treatment other than being told to HTFU.

I do think it should be possible to partially research BPOs between levels (I get the impression this will not be possible and do not have time to thoroughly check right now). This way players can research a hefty BPO in stages, and it also means that players can have the BPO put between ME levels when this BPO change occurs, rather than the current blanket approach.

Also If I want to research a BPO from level 9 to 10, then one science slot will be tied up for possibly years without the option to cancel and avoid losing all that research. That seems like bad mechanics.
Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#368 - 2014-04-28 23:30:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Theo Sotken
Querns wrote:
Theo Sotken wrote:
Querns wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:

If not give us all our research time in a pool to spend on patch day so the people who made the sensible decision in the past can make a new educated decision on where to spend it.

This is not a particularly smart idea. This will let you bootstrap an insane number of new blueprints to perfect status without having to do anything but scoop up unnecessarily high level BPOs.


But wouldn't we already have invested that time in research anyway so we gain nothing extra?
As for 'scooping' unnecessarily high bpo's do you mean paying someone who researched them a fair price for them.

Please note the costs and effort in researching the originals was not 'free' by any stretch of the imagination and neither was it some crazy mad idea to get high research on blueprints as doing so added isk value to those items.

Basically, you want to be reimbursed for performing unnecessary amounts of research and wasting your time by translating all that wasted time onto new blueprints. I don't think that is a very good idea.


Before these changes were announced having an over researched blueprint did have value attached to it. These changes remove that value. I can't understand why you can't see that.
I did not consider my time wasted until I saw these changes as the researched blueprint could have been sold for isk to compensate me for that time.
With the hindsight with which you state I should have predicted these changes I could have researched and max out blueprints instead. If it had been known or changes hinted at like the skill changes it would definitely have influenced how I managed my blueprints but it wasn't.

But really it doesn't bother me that much but neither does it sit well considering the opportunity costs I made.

PS. These industry changes are starting to get me down.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#369 - 2014-04-28 23:30:40 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:

I do think, it should be possible to partially research BPOs between levels (I get the impression this will not be possible). That way players can research a hefty BPO in stages, and also means that players can have there BPOs put between ME levels when this BPO change occurs.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind partial research being saved so you can do it in bits - it would give you the ability to stick something in research for bpo downtimes without having to commit to, say, an entire years worth of research on your titan bpo.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#370 - 2014-04-28 23:34:02 UTC
Vesan Terakol wrote:
The switch to 10-level research system is, lets say, interesting. It will help a lot with both its clarity and by easing some stress from the nerves of min/max obsessed players, giving them a final value to achieve (no 56573573 more hours for that last piece of trit).

I like the clarity part more, tho, and i see how the circular meter around the blueprint in the new manufacturing UI ties to it - its a neat concept.

It will also help a lot when deciding how good that blueprint you want to grab from a contract really is, because, that 200 ME 425mm definitely looks better than the 100ME one, but there's no way to really see its all the same without going through a third party website.


One big problem with the old system is that when there are so many possible ML/PL values, you can't specify the value you want, because you'd be searching for an exact combination out of lierally tens of thousands of permutations.

With the new system, I can say that I'd like a Caracal BPO that's ME 6 TE 4, and then search for exactly that combination (out of the only 121 possible), and I'll find multiple sellers and be able to compare their prices, easily and transparently.

It also makes sense, now, for CCP to expand the Contracts BPO search system so that you can search for ranges of values, e.g. I might be willing to buy anything between ME 5 and 8, and anything TE 4 or higher. (TE 4 to 10).
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2014-04-28 23:35:27 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
(i am a capital producer, you see)

Actually, you not a mere capital producer. You are also "Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division".

And, regardless of what other players say about you personally, and about the Goons, you folks are, without a doubt, the absolute best at financially exploiting any changes that CCP makes to the game, particularly those changes for which CCP has not fully considered all of the possible ramifications or domino effects.

So, quite honestly, any change of which you approve, probably deserves a much closer examination by the CCP devs.... :)


The ones the be the most wary of are the ones we say nothing on.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Valterra Craven
#372 - 2014-04-28 23:37:37 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm going to keep asking this very simple question in every blog until it gets answered.

What the hell are you guys going to do with the Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory to ensure that it stays roughly at the same price point it is now. AKA not making them useless and not making them OP.


I'll check into this tomorrow.



While you are at it, could you guys ponder making corp slots in stations have the same infinite number as the sci and indy slots at the same cost scaling... :X Just throwing that out there... for ya know consistency sake...

Also, thanks for checking on this.
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#373 - 2014-04-28 23:37:53 UTC
So, we can produce copies faster than we can build. Since the new paradigm is to build from copies and we already invent from copies, perhaps the demand for copies is about to dramatically increase... Idea
princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#374 - 2014-04-28 23:38:39 UTC
Well folks, from what I am reading yet another entire sector of this game is pretty much gone for the small independent corp. Those of us who have been assembling and researching a large BPO library seem to be S.O.L. since years of research will be rendered next to worthless in one mathematical ME/PE patch that will just max out a large portion of our library.

Buff to the T2 BPO "old guard" crowd. Check.
Nert to the small independents in Hisec. Check.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#375 - 2014-04-28 23:38:48 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Querns wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I'm going to keep asking this very simple question in every blog until it gets answered.

What the hell are you guys going to do with the Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory to ensure that it stays roughly at the same price point it is now. AKA not making them useless and not making them OP.

I think everyone is waiting for the cost scaling blog before getting too concerned about pos module costs.


I'm not everyone, these are very very special modules. If these get nerfed its a huge penalty to the Caldari Epic line rewards, which may make them not worth running.


Sometimes you win the speculation game, sometimes you lose.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#376 - 2014-04-28 23:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: AFK Hauler
Not to sound like I'm mad, but WTH?

I did spend a lot of real dollars to purchase BPOs for construction via PLEX.

Now you are changing the game in such a way that I waster hundreds of my dollars on what is now a waste?

The capital BPOs I bought would have taken me years to research.

If you take the original BPOs and change their research time or research limit time, then we should be fairly compensated for the change.

Because I spent real dollars making my in-game business plan work, I feel that this is the one area of the game I'm going to ***** about. The Dev Blog was not clear enough for me to follow for the cost of research time for ME, cost of materials (especially capital parts), or the cost for TE research time for POSs or stations. Spreadsheets on the calculated differences between the research costs (ME/TE) for the original and the proposed new model are requested. Because time is ISK, the costs associated with the change in research needs to be made more clear for a proposed change this drastic.


Just to be clear, I'm fine with simplifying the terms and go forward research model, but I'm not fine with losing money because of a "balance" update.


Also - Get rig of T2 BPOs! This change will further screw up the market in favor of those who have T2 BPOS!!! Common CCP, copy time that are roughly the same as build times? The market will be flooded with copies for T2 - researched BPOs.
Otherwise, make a high priced method for an in-game mechanic for us to make our own T2 BPO...



More clarity is needed in the Dev Blog, please.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#377 - 2014-04-28 23:39:26 UTC
Feedback:


- Generally I prefer the proposed system to the present one.

- Currently you are focusing on preserving present levels of material waste rather than preserving present levels of research time invested into blueprints. I think this is the wrong approach.

Take a BS BPO (research time to perfect under new system: 15360000 seconds, to make the maths easier I will call this 180 days although it's actually a bit more)

The present time required to research this to level 10 is 3600000 seconds = 41 days 16 hours.

In short it is much, much more efficient to do the research to level 10 now, and people who join the game later will wind up needing to invest more time into their blueprints to even come close to competing.

The alternative is the following:

- Current BPO level 0: 0 time invested, becomes level 0
- Current BPO level 1: Current time invested 6000 seconds per level of the BPO, becomes level 5 or 6 (depending upon rounding)
- Current BPO level 2-3: 12000-18000s/level invested, becomes level 6 or 7 (depending on rounding)
- Current BPO level 4-7: Becomes level 7 or 8 (rounding)
- Current BPO level 8-17: Becomes level 8 or 9 (rounding)
- Current BPO level 18-42: Becomes level 9 or 10 (rounding)
- Current BPO level 43 or higher: Becomes level 10 regardless of rounding (as this has more time invested in research than is required to hit level 10 under the new system)

As for which way to round - I don't care, just be consistent and transparent.

This approach ensures that future EVE players are on a reasonably level playing field to existing ones.

Personal interest statement: I personally would be better off under the original Dev Blog as I have a significant number of medium-value BPOs (cruisers, battlecruisers, etc) that are researched to levels that will really benefit from the proposed change (6 or so Vexor BPOs researched to 12-24 ME, etc) and only one BPO of significant value that is massively overresearched under this proposed change (an ME 67 Talos BPO). I do also hold a fair number of module BPOs that will be significantly over-researched under the changes (such as ME 150+ 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plate I BPOs) but they are much less of my overall wealth.



- The copying issue

As stated this will have a big impact on those markets where the mistake that is T2 BPOs are a significant percentage of overall production, particularly non-Damnation/Sleipnir Command Ships and almost all of the T2 EWAR ships. Any increase to T2 BPO throughput should be nipped in the bud by having T2 BPOs take 200-250% as long to copy from as to produce from (all BPOs that are still available in the game should stick to the proposed 100%).

- Personal interest: I own no T2 BPOs and run large numbers of invention jobs, largely avoiding the markets I perceive BPOs to have a significant effect on and totally avoiding the markets I perceive them to dominate.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Amari Jackson
Zacharia Explorations Group
#378 - 2014-04-28 23:43:02 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
...unnecessary amounts of research and wasting your time ...

Actually, you know this isn't true. There is a widely held perception that BPOs, and thus BPCs, with higher ME/PE are worth more, and this perception creates reality.

You can see this in the BPC contract market, where players routinely pay more for BPCs with ME/PE values far exceeding "perfect".


While I can appreciate the frustration in seeing all of that time come to naught, if we are going to be honest, the value in over researched BPOs in Marketing.

Marketing.

Granted, over researched BPOs are one of the few ways of actually marketing *anything* in this game (buy my rifter! which is the exactly the same as...er...that rifter...except .01 isk cheaper! ...Ugh ), but not everyone who over-researched a BPO did so with the intent to sell. And if players did so with the intent to build, that was an opportunity cost that those players either did knowingly or in ignorance.

For example, let's say someone researches...I dunno...a Raven to ME 40 instead of ME 10.

Well, using some quickie math via eve-cost.eu, the guy who stopped at ME 10 would have made 4 billion profit in the time it would have taken someone to do ME 75. (lots of assumptions here). That was the opportunity cost: 4 billion isk. Straight

As for the buyers of over-researched BPCs...after the change, not much will really change for them. They still get to pay isk for people's BPCs, adjusted to your production costs from job scaling.



Plus, who do you refund? The owner of the BPO may not have necessarily have researched it personally.

The owner of the BPO who may have bought it off the market (contracts) and never spent a single second researching it?

  • Owner #1 : hey! I spent all of this ISK for a ME 200 BPO, and now it's ME 10 or something??? And I have a notice about some kind of research points? The heck? Wait...did I just get a two for one deal? I have a well researched BPO already, now I can apply these research points to *other* blueprints? I win! LOL!!!

    • The owner who got it via ganking?

  • Owner #2 : "LOL! I ganked this guy last week now I have all of these free research points I can spend! All it cost me was a catalyst because fool was transporting the BPO in an untanked bestower!"


    • The researcher? who may not even *own* the BPO anymore?

    The Corp who may have the BPO on lock down???



    My 2cents.
    -Amari
    Medalyn Isis
    Doomheim
    #379 - 2014-04-28 23:43:29 UTC
    Weaselior wrote:
    Medalyn Isis wrote:

    I do think, it should be possible to partially research BPOs between levels (I get the impression this will not be possible). That way players can research a hefty BPO in stages, and also means that players can have there BPOs put between ME levels when this BPO change occurs.

    Yeah, I wouldn't mind partial research being saved so you can do it in bits - it would give you the ability to stick something in research for bpo downtimes without having to commit to, say, an entire years worth of research on your titan bpo.

    Imo they should do it on a percentage basis.

    So for example, if my BPO is level 4 and I want it to 5, that will in total take 30 days to research. If I want to research for just 20 days, then using the interface I can set it to research to 66% of the next level, and the interface will automatically calculate that it will take just under 20 days.

    Not sure if that will be easy to programme in, but I think something like that is much needed.
    Valterra Craven
    #380 - 2014-04-28 23:46:53 UTC
    Dramaticus wrote:
    Valterra Craven wrote:
    Querns wrote:
    Valterra Craven wrote:
    I'm going to keep asking this very simple question in every blog until it gets answered.

    What the hell are you guys going to do with the Hyasyoda Mobile Laboratory to ensure that it stays roughly at the same price point it is now. AKA not making them useless and not making them OP.

    I think everyone is waiting for the cost scaling blog before getting too concerned about pos module costs.


    I'm not everyone, these are very very special modules. If these get nerfed its a huge penalty to the Caldari Epic line rewards, which may make them not worth running.


    Sometimes you win the speculation game, sometimes you lose.

    I'm not speculating on these, and judging from current prices no one is either. I've saved a few of them I was going to use for a personal pos, but it would be nice to know whether to dump them or keep them before this summer.