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Dev blog: Industry UI

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#121 - 2014-04-28 14:55:34 UTC
mkint wrote:
What's the deal with CCP's obsession with removing labels from icons, and forcing a hover over to actually get useful information? Build requirements as icons is stupid. No matter how familiar you are with the icons themselves, it will never ever ever be as fast as a glance at a written name. It is absolutely impossible to tell at a glance the material requirements without hovering over 11 different icons one at a time. That's called "worse." Even the name of what's being produced is tucked away at the bottom of the window after 4 different completely irrelevant images. Graphics heavy does not make something automatically better, and when a meaningless picture is substituted for useful text, it's automatically worse.

+1

Include text labels for all materials, please. Remember how you had to go back on the pretty but nondescript weapon icons? Same goes here. Immediate recognition > pretty graphics.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#122 - 2014-04-28 14:56:38 UTC
Discoverability of the feature is key
Blueprint Show info window
It is missing a heap of useful information.
I typically look at this window for 2 reasons.
- First talking with a Corpie about S&I and stepping them through it, seeing the unskilled version of the figures is great for this.
- Second is when I am looking to do something with the Blueprint, seeing the figures taking my skills into account is perfect for this.
^^ WE NEED BOTH SETS OF FIGURES ^^

Icons for the love of god give the option of using TEXT instead of ICONS.

The Icons for Manufacture/ME/PE/Invention/etc will take a huge time to get used to, I have a feeling that I will remember it more buy it's the 3rd icon from the left than actually recognising it. at least with Text you can read it and click on the correct one every time. Also Text tabs take up less vertical space than Icons, and most people use wide-screen displays, therefore vertical screen real-estate is more important than Horizontal.

Again with the lack of 2 sets of figures on the Industry tab. we need both the unskilled and the my skills figures for the same 2 reasons listed above.

Designing the Industry window
Input requirements
I'm sorry but the Input requirements aspect of the new Industry window is Monumental backwards step in comparison to the current table that we get on the Quote Window currently. In the demo screenshot, I do not recognise ANY of the icons.

The Heart of the window
I was going to say that we need the name of the blueprint here, but you have the name of the blueprint to the right and down a bit.

Activity selection
Please see above comment about remembering where the icons are vs actually knowing what they are.

Jobs tab
Can we hide the Blueprint icon(it is useless) and change the Activity icon to text. I'm sure that then we will be able to fit more rows on screen at the same time, as it is currently I have to use the Entire screen to see my jobs and my Alts Finished jobs, let alone see all the jobs. (4 accounts, 3 toons per account, upto 11 Manufacturing jobs each, upto 11 research Jobs each, adds up to allot of jobs to manage.... And I'm sure that there are people that manage more toons than I do)

Filters
States needs the existing Any Active State (or are these things that you can toggle on and off) cause I need to see In Progress, Pending and Ready, I don't care most of the time about Delivered and Offline.

Blueprints Tab
No Filter for BPOs vs BPCs?
Frankly if I'm looking to do some ME or PE research I need to only be looking at BPOs, but I'f I'm manufacturing under the new rules of blueprint must be in the location of manufacture then I am only going to want BPCs.

Installations Tab
Public vs Corp owned? how do we filter this? Or at least do a Not Station Filter

ME & TE (formerly known as PE)
Comments on hold pending "CCP Greyscale will go into more details in his blog regarding ME and TE."

Reverse Engineering and Invention
Quality meter?? Invention Chance? or is this something to do with the ME/PE of the output BPC?

Optional inputs
The Slash through the icon makes me think missing or broken or not in use. Optional you may have been better off using a question mark.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#123 - 2014-04-28 14:56:42 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Will it treat the pos as one big storage?


This requires a POS rework and so no this will not happen for the summer release, but we agree that would be preferable.


Then the remote skill is truly a waste now. Before it was used to use a BPO from station in a pos, now that that single thing is taken away it will be impossible to do this currently as you will physically have to be at the pos to deliver or our on build jobs as everything we pretty much do in a CAA requires the size to be much larger. Once you deliver jobs and overfill the array, you have to empty it before you can do everything else, so again, you have to be at the pos, so remote skill is freaking USELESS


This has not changed from before, you need to have your materials in the assembly array already.

However I have poked CCP Ytterbium about whether we could increase their capacity anyway and he is going to take a look. However we can't make any promises on this.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2014-04-28 14:57:10 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
probag Bear wrote:
Will we be able to set installation and destination defaults in any way? For example: for invention, I always use Division 1 as input and Division 2 as output, for manufacturing it's 3 -> 4,... But it'd be even nicer if I could just set all Invention jobs to default to Divisions 1->2 once per character, and never have to bother with it again.


It will remember between sessions.


What is the remembering based on. EG I have 3 different pilots, each with permission to exactly 1 different division. I have 3 BPO's, one owned by each pilot in their respective divisions.

Is the remembering based on:

  • Specific BPO?
  • combination of generic BPO and pilot?
  • all instances of one BPO in a POS?
  • Some other scenario?

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#125 - 2014-04-28 14:58:05 UTC
It isn't being talked about but if you right click on a BPC will the options to perform ME and PE research no longer be available . Along with this the option to invention for BPO probably needs to go away as well.

I have listed 2 examples but there are many many more along these same lines. A Titan doesn't have a bridge to in the right click menu if it doesn't have a jump portal fitted, why can't this be the same?

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#126 - 2014-04-28 15:00:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
mkint wrote:
What's the deal with CCP's obsession with removing labels from icons, and forcing a hover over to actually get useful information? Build requirements as icons is stupid. No matter how familiar you are with the icons themselves, it will never ever ever be as fast as a glance at a written name. It is absolutely impossible to tell at a glance the material requirements without hovering over 11 different icons one at a time. That's called "worse." Even the name of what's being produced is tucked away at the bottom of the window after 4 different completely irrelevant images. Graphics heavy does not make something automatically better, and when a meaningless picture is substituted for useful text, it's automatically worse.

+1

Include text labels for all materials, please. Remember how you had to go back on the pretty but nondescript weapon icons? Same goes here. Immediate recognition > pretty graphics.


Good point, we had a discussion about this today and are brainstorming some ideas to get a quick spreadsheets style shopping list.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#127 - 2014-04-28 15:01:09 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
It isn't being talked about but if you right click on a BPC will the options to perform ME and PE research no longer be available . Along with this the option to invention for BPO probably needs to go away as well.

I have listed 2 examples but there are many many more along these same lines. A Titan doesn't have a bridge to in the right click menu if it doesn't have a jump portal fitted, why can't this be the same?


If you double click a blueprint it will open in the new Industry UI, after which you can pick the activity to perform. It will display which activities are available for this blueprint and which are not.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#128 - 2014-04-28 15:01:41 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Good point, we had a discussion about this today and are brainstorming some ideas to get a quick spreadsheets style shopping list.

Thank you.


…and just to be annoying and demanding just when you've been forthcoming, when you say spreadsheet shopping lists, could you also brainstorm some ideas to get an “export to CSV” button in there? P
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#129 - 2014-04-28 15:02:22 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Will it treat the pos as one big storage?


This requires a POS rework and so no this will not happen for the summer release, but we agree that would be preferable.


Then the remote skill is truly a waste now. Before it was used to use a BPO from station in a pos, now that that single thing is taken away it will be impossible to do this currently as you will physically have to be at the pos to deliver or our on build jobs as everything we pretty much do in a CAA requires the size to be much larger. Once you deliver jobs and overfill the array, you have to empty it before you can do everything else, so again, you have to be at the pos, so remote skill is freaking USELESS


This has not changed from before, you need to have your materials in the assembly array already.

However I have poked CCP Ytterbium about whether we could increase their capacity anyway and he is going to take a look. However we can't make any promises on this.


As been noted several times, having minerals in the array isn't possible. I can only put on 100 cap components, 90 doomsday mounts or 70 jump bridge arrays per 1 mil m3 CAA.

Increasing size would help, but unless you can fit an entire titans worth of minerals it is still only a band aid and someone will have to go to the pos. I usually freighter minerals to pos and go thru 59 jobs and put the whole Titan in components in one shot. That means basically playing mineral Tetris for approx 50 jobs, which means someone has to be at the pos and the remote skill is again worthless for at least one pilot.

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#130 - 2014-04-28 15:04:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Good point, we had a discussion about this today and are brainstorming some ideas to get a quick spreadsheets style shopping list.

Thank you.


…and just to be annoying and demanding just when you've been forthcoming, when you say spreadsheet shopping lists, could you also brainstorm some ideas to get an “export to CSV” button in there? P


Yeah we are discussing this, or a copy to clipboard + paste in excel option for example.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2014-04-28 15:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Quote:
Apart from being visually different than BPC (Blueprint Copy), a BPO (Blueprint Original) will have an infinite sign in the "Runs" column.


Does this mean BPO and BPC icons will be getting a more distinct visual look to differentiate them? Or is this just in the industry UI?

EDIT: Regardless, even within the screenshot provided, can we get a MORE distinct look? Like BPCs could be green instead of blue or something...
Furoth
Black Avarice
Skeletons in the Closet
#132 - 2014-04-28 15:19:41 UTC
It looks good. All the new visuals have a function in the UX so there won't be any moaning about wasted screen space. Thank god, and thank you. :)

A couple things worry me though. I saw a lot of mexallon in the screens but I didn't actually see the word "mexallon" anywhere. That's something people will find useful imho. Especially the new guys who are looking at the market window for the stuff they need.

The estimated profits and costs will be useless to most. Any serious industrialist wants to know their exact costs for whatever they are doing. Using a market average is pretty pointless since you may buy the items from market buy orders or contract a 'supplier' for more or less than market average. In the end, the estimate will be far off from the actual costs of production. Even then, are you selling to buy orders or putting them on the market yourself. Blueprints themselves also have a cost, especially if you invent. How many times did you fail and lose those decryptors and datacores. How much did it cost to make those 5 T2 BPCs. It all adds up. I would love to see an inventory screen of sorts that allows me to put a price figure on everything and then calculate manufacture cost from there. It also fails to include the cost of slot rentals or POS fuel costs. They matter and are sometimes the difference between profit and loss.

Teams is another thing that worries me but i'll hold off until the actual blog about them. I have a feeling it will be a new industry cost that will have to be worked into the numbers.



I've been saying unify POS modules for years. It's a real headache and that 2500m limit is still there too. Let's hope POS code is not too far off on the expansions list.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#133 - 2014-04-28 15:28:57 UTC
Based on looking at your final product for the manufacturing window:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66065/1/Industry_Window_VisualTarget2.png

I'm a little confused by one thing. The sections for all things time related.

In the middle of the screen, you have a start button. And inside that bar, on the far left, you have a "Total Time" of "2D 48:28:10". I'm guessing that the 2 days is there to just give you a quick and dirty guess at how long .... something is going to take. Since it's in the same bar as the start button, it makes me think that the job i'm about to start will take 2 days.

But then confusion sets in.

On the top right, you have "7D 00:00:03" under job duration. 7 days is 168 hours... so now my reality is starting to fall apart.

I want to assume that the 2 days time is for all jobs currently running, but under that we see that you only have 1 job, and it suspiciously starts and stops at the same time on April 7th.

So really, what I want to know is, what do these two times represent, and is there a better way to show the player that?
Or am I completely daft, and I should just quit now?

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#134 - 2014-04-28 15:35:47 UTC
can you add spacing for the large numbers on the materials list so you can easier read them? 1 000 000 or 1.000.000

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#135 - 2014-04-28 15:37:23 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
Based on looking at your final product for the manufacturing window:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66065/1/Industry_Window_VisualTarget2.png

I'm a little confused by one thing. The sections for all things time related.

In the middle of the screen, you have a start button. And inside that bar, on the far left, you have a "Total Time" of "2D 48:28:10". I'm guessing that the 2 days is there to just give you a quick and dirty guess at how long .... something is going to take. Since it's in the same bar as the start button, it makes me think that the job i'm about to start will take 2 days.

But then confusion sets in.

On the top right, you have "7D 00:00:03" under job duration. 7 days is 168 hours... so now my reality is starting to fall apart.

I want to assume that the 2 days time is for all jobs currently running, but under that we see that you only have 1 job, and it suspiciously starts and stops at the same time on April 7th.

So really, what I want to know is, what do these two times represent, and is there a better way to show the player that?
Or am I completely daft, and I should just quit now?


Good catch, it is just a last minute change to this concept and an oversight. There will only be 1 time and 1 cost shown.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Shalene
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#136 - 2014-04-28 15:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalene
Great stuff, except for the fact that the prototype ui is easier to read than the finished ui with all sorts of fancy but unecessary things in our face.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#137 - 2014-04-28 15:42:24 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


So you set up the first blueprint, then just hit submit on the subsequent BPCs because everything is set to go.


As long as I no longer end up with a bunch of Claw BPCs because I forgot to select 'Stiletto' on half the jobs of a batch, I'm happy. Well, that and not having to buy a new mouse because the left button wears out...
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2014-04-28 15:50:26 UTC
I can't really comment until I get a chance to use it. I have a difficult time visualizing what you are planning based on description I need to interact with it myself. So I can only really comment on stuff you've done similar to this.

I've been playing this game for years and don't really know what ISIS is. I've seen the icon and clicked on it once but was confused as to what the heck it was, what it was for or what it was intended to do. I'd love to say I'm not happy with it but honestly I don't even know what it is.

As far as changes to the info tab on other stuff (like ships and mods) just like what you did with your website you took something that was extremely functional and easy to understand and turned it into something very pretty and difficult. The new website is much prettier and exponentially more difficult to navigate. To this day there are things that I used to be able to find easily that I simply can not find at all. For the info tab I'll use ships as an example. I used to be able to click on the fitting tab and know exactly what I needed to know I would see numbers for slots and hard points etc... Now there are no longer numbers for hardpoints but instead dots so I have to count dots now to see if I can use all my high slots for weapons or what not when selecting a ship. Also I used to know what the base stats were now it's very confusing to understand if what I am looking at is raw stats or if my skills are figured in. This makes things very difficult since most of the time I'm looking at "show info" it's to help a noob so having my skill or current fitting mixed in with stuff only makes things more confusing and complicated.

All in all I've not been happy with the direction of development in recent years. You've trended towards dumbing things down and making it easier for noobs while at the same time making it more difficult and complicated for vets who know what to do but now have a more difficult time navigating the more complex aspects of things since they've all been streamlined for noobs.

I understand that you guys are chasing after 18 million WoW players and not 300K bitter old vets and these changes will likely facilitate that to some degree. I'll just put this in the category of more WoWification of Eve.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2014-04-28 15:54:52 UTC
For more complex manufacture jobs e.g. tech 2 ship I like to split my raw materials into buckets ( containers ).
This is because the top level job usually also require sub jobs with their own materials to be manufactured first. - Tech 2 parts.

I break it all down into raw materials for the main job and all the sub jobs and add it all together using a spreadsheet.
I then throw it all in it's own container whilst I work on it - do the sub jobs etc........
The own container is so that those materials are reserved and not available for me to do other things with whilst the jobs are in progress.

My question is - Will I be able to manufacture from that container in a station given that I am no longer at the root level?
e.g. blueprint and all materials are in a container - can I manufacture directly from that container without tipping it all back into root please?
What about in the future please?
Storm Novah
Yada Industries
#140 - 2014-04-28 16:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Storm Novah
So far I really like what I see. The only thing I have thought of outside of what is already mentioned is that somewhere in the thread someone was asking about a way to possibly favorite jobs that are repeated often and I had an idea about it. (I tried to find the post to quote it but was unable to find it.)

I was wondering if it would be possible to make something for SnI that resembles the saved fittings window. Because for people that do so many different jobs or repeat jobs they would likely have trouble locating it in a 3 month window full of those different jobs. I think this might be a bit more efficient and if you do it in the same fashion you would be able to click and drag it to a chat box in game to show people what you are doing too. Maybe even make it available for import/export like fittings are for different external applications.

Just my thoughts.