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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1461 - 2014-04-27 13:44:21 UTC
Master Odysseus wrote:

1) ofc no-one is making me but a drone boat with 80km drone range is not a drone boat, it's an imitation of a drone boat.



then fit for 4 launchers...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1462 - 2014-04-27 14:22:02 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Master Odysseus wrote:

1) ofc no-one is making me but a drone boat with 80km drone range is not a drone boat, it's an imitation of a drone boat.



then fit for 4 launchers...

This guy gets it... If you want the extra drone range, use it. If you don't, you don't have to.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1463 - 2014-04-27 16:10:26 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Boring... RS this, RS that... lets talk about how Nightmare is overpowered with its 150% AB bonus... Fight!



if the ship will be "too OP" ccp will nerf it pretty fast.

if instead a ship will be lacking or just bad, it will have to wait for years till a next ballance pass will be done;

that's why i don't understand ppl who will hurry and cry "OP! OP!" even it's pretty clear they never flown that ship. but hey, eft warriors know better...


Just joking man :). What you say is true. I never flown a Nightmare but trying to fit one now I found out that it has some serious drawbacks that may or may not have an impact depending on application:

1. With AB fitted it will have huge issues with cap stability.

2. Flying with AB on gives you a speed tank but also makes you unable to hit anything. It won't be a 100mn AB tengu. If they can't shoot you, you cant shoot them.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1464 - 2014-04-27 16:18:42 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
then fit for 4 launchers...

Apparently some people are having problems thinking "outside the box"...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#1465 - 2014-04-27 16:33:40 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

MACHARIEL
Scan Resolution125(-25)


Why are you nerfing scan resolution ?
Machariel moves like a cruiser through space now (3.0AU/s) so scan resolution should be as it is now on TQ.
There are other battleships that have more than 125mm scan resolution so i don't understand reason for nerfing this.
Ugh
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1466 - 2014-04-27 16:33:59 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Boring... RS this, RS that... lets talk about how Nightmare is overpowered with its 150% AB bonus... Fight!



if the ship will be "too OP" ccp will nerf it pretty fast.

if instead a ship will be lacking or just bad, it will have to wait for years till a next ballance pass will be done;

that's why i don't understand ppl who will hurry and cry "OP! OP!" even it's pretty clear they never flown that ship. but hey, eft warriors know better...


Just joking man :). What you say is true. I never flown a Nightmare but trying to fit one now I found out that it has some serious drawbacks that may or may not have an impact depending on application:

1. With AB fitted it will have huge issues with cap stability.

2. Flying with AB on gives you a speed tank but also makes you unable to hit anything. It won't be a 100mn AB tengu. If they can't shoot you, you cant shoot them.


i read ppl use a mwd nightmare, so an AB boosted one might be a nice halfway point.

but i found the same as u, nightmares are a nightmare to fit *bdum-tshh*

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1467 - 2014-04-27 16:50:20 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Just joking man :). What you say is true. I never flown a Nightmare but trying to fit one now I found out that it has some serious drawbacks that may or may not have an impact depending on application:

1. With AB fitted it will have huge issues with cap stability.

2. Flying with AB on gives you a speed tank but also makes you unable to hit anything. It won't be a 100mn AB tengu. If they can't shoot you, you cant shoot them.


Not convinced it will be that bad. Imagine you'd be running a cap booster anyway so running an AB isn't going to be world ending - it'll obviously be massively better than a MWD and I imagine would use a lot less cap than it does with firing the lasers? Not got EFT here to check...

They've got the tracking bonus so I reckon they could be pretty epic at mid-long range. I'm really looking forward to trying them out.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1468 - 2014-04-27 18:06:46 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Boring... RS this, RS that... lets talk about how Nightmare is overpowered with its 150% AB bonus... Fight!



if the ship will be "too OP" ccp will nerf it pretty fast.

if instead a ship will be lacking or just bad, it will have to wait for years till a next ballance pass will be done;

that's why i don't understand ppl who will hurry and cry "OP! OP!" even it's pretty clear they never flown that ship. but hey, eft warriors know better...


Just joking man :). What you say is true. I never flown a Nightmare but trying to fit one now I found out that it has some serious drawbacks that may or may not have an impact depending on application:

1. With AB fitted it will have huge issues with cap stability.

2. Flying with AB on gives you a speed tank but also makes you unable to hit anything. It won't be a 100mn AB tengu. If they can't shoot you, you cant shoot them.


nightmare will be the best pirate bs by far
and i think you somehow are mistaking mwd with ab.

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1469 - 2014-04-27 18:32:08 UTC
Some observations:

The most OP ship in the game (bhaalgorn) just became more OP. Not only can it kill carriers, it can now fit local reps and three nosferatus to turn it into the ultimate brawler... ok, I kind of like that idea since I own one.

Why is everyone so excited about the rattlesnake? It can no longer fit 5 heavy utility drones. The change to the drone bay is utterly without merit and is merely a gimmick. It has a little more DPS, but not enough to make it particularly interesting. It has no special ability to differentiate it from, say, a navy dominix. Perhaps it will continue to see use in level 5 mission running where care bears will celebrate the extra minute they have to recall ogres when they are targeted?

The nightmare AB bonus is interesting. In a skirmish it will help mitigate some incoming damage until the ship is triple webbed and/or neutralised. However all ranges, this ship is still outperformed by a dominix. Perhaps it will see some PVE use?

The Machariel and Vindicator were desirable before. They remain desirable.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1470 - 2014-04-27 19:02:06 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why is everyone so excited about the rattlesnake? It can no longer fit 5 heavy utility drones. The change to the drone bay is utterly without merit and is merely a gimmick. It has a little more DPS, but not enough to make it particularly interesting. It has no special ability to differentiate it from, say, a navy dominix. Perhaps it will continue to see use in level 5 mission running where care bears will celebrate the extra minute they have to recall ogres when they are targeted?
As someone who engages in terrible fitting practices such as cap stability (yes, I'm too lazy to manage modules) I'm anticipating an over 200DPS increase in my cruise missile RS. Others who fit more competently will see far more. I'm liking the fact that with the split in weapons focus I can use light drones without completely gimping my ships overall damage output. I'll actually still post decent numbers on medium to large targets while the drones handle close small ones.

Considering the current RS was mostly used for PvE anyways, was using 5 heavy utility drones ever really a common thing on that hull? Wouldn't the Ishtar be better for that?

And really, having a bonus to every missile size isn't enough to differentiate it from anything? I can't think of a single other BS with that ability.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1471 - 2014-04-27 19:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
gascanu wrote:


nightmare will be the best pirate bs by far
and i think you somehow are mistaking mwd with ab.



No i don't :). If someone is using it for pvp (I would not) then ok it's good. For solo pve it is still cap hungry as hell, u cant perma run AB. For incursions I imagine this will be great, as you use AB as mod for traveling fast and not speed tank.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1472 - 2014-04-27 20:16:06 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why is everyone so excited about the rattlesnake? It can no longer fit 5 heavy utility drones. The change to the drone bay is utterly without merit and is merely a gimmick. It has a little more DPS, but not enough to make it particularly interesting. It has no special ability to differentiate it from, say, a navy dominix. Perhaps it will continue to see use in level 5 mission running where care bears will celebrate the extra minute they have to recall ogres when they are targeted?
As someone who engages in terrible fitting practices such as cap stability (yes, I'm too lazy to manage modules) I'm anticipating an over 200DPS increase in my cruise missile RS. Others who fit more competently will see far more. I'm liking the fact that with the split in weapons focus I can use light drones without completely gimping my ships overall damage output. I'll actually still post decent numbers on medium to large targets while the drones handle close small ones.

Considering the current RS was mostly used for PvE anyways, was using 5 heavy utility drones ever really a common thing on that hull? Wouldn't the Ishtar be better for that?

And really, having a bonus to every missile size isn't enough to differentiate it from anything? I can't think of a single other BS with that ability.

- My opinion - Not asking you to agree with me - Just don't bother hating, I don't care.

The Snake, although now having a bonus to "all' launcher types is really only usable with RHML and Cruise. RHML - Pvp, Cruise - Pvp or Pve.
The all launcher bonus is really not that big a draw card that people will suddenly rush out and start buying them.

The Snake has always been mainly Pve and this is unlikely to change.
Existing users will adapt or sell and buy a Domi or Ishtar. The few who decide to try the "new improved" Snake for the 1st time, may be a little disappointed if their expectations are set too high.

Fit correctly it may even be fun at the odd gate camp but i wouldn't expect to see too many in this role.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1473 - 2014-04-27 20:32:54 UTC
i'd be very surprised if my rattler was worse at missions. i barely use smalls as it is.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1474 - 2014-04-27 21:00:12 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why is everyone so excited about the rattlesnake? It can no longer fit 5 heavy utility drones. The change to the drone bay is utterly without merit and is merely a gimmick. It has a little more DPS, but not enough to make it particularly interesting. It has no special ability to differentiate it from, say, a navy dominix. Perhaps it will continue to see use in level 5 mission running where care bears will celebrate the extra minute they have to recall ogres when they are targeted?
As someone who engages in terrible fitting practices such as cap stability (yes, I'm too lazy to manage modules) I'm anticipating an over 200DPS increase in my cruise missile RS. Others who fit more competently will see far more. I'm liking the fact that with the split in weapons focus I can use light drones without completely gimping my ships overall damage output. I'll actually still post decent numbers on medium to large targets while the drones handle close small ones.

Considering the current RS was mostly used for PvE anyways, was using 5 heavy utility drones ever really a common thing on that hull? Wouldn't the Ishtar be better for that?

And really, having a bonus to every missile size isn't enough to differentiate it from anything? I can't think of a single other BS with that ability.

- My opinion - Not asking you to agree with me - Just don't bother hating, I don't care.

The Snake, although now having a bonus to "all' launcher types is really only usable with RHML and Cruise. RHML - Pvp, Cruise - Pvp or Pve.
The all launcher bonus is really not that big a draw card that people will suddenly rush out and start buying them.

The Snake has always been mainly Pve and this is unlikely to change.
Existing users will adapt or sell and buy a Domi or Ishtar. The few who decide to try the "new improved" Snake for the 1st time, may be a little disappointed if their expectations are set too high.

Fit correctly it may even be fun at the odd gate camp but i wouldn't expect to see too many in this role.
I also expect use of the RS to remain largely in the PvE space. To a degree this is the case with all Pirate BS's simply due to cost. My point is that the currently proposed iteration seems, at least in theory, to play out well there.

Honestly with the limits of both drones and missiles I don't see how combining the 2 at the BS level and pirate price point would be expected to make a huge PvP splash, but maybe I'm missing something there.

What I do like is that as a current RS owner I finally have a ship which will become more than a subpar domi, and even better does so by not becoming another domi. The new RS bonus IMHO will most likely boil down to cruise or RHML, but has RLML/torps as an option, meaning that between the 3 that unique thing about the RS is that it gets a much wider damage profile from raw DPS to application than just about any other missile ship. Millage will vary of course, and niche applications don't translate to overall proliferation, but it is still something special and unique that the RS has been sorely lacking (with accentuation on it's failings getting stronger with omni nerfs, Gallente drone boat buffs and to a degree the impending drone changes), even if not a perfect draw.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1475 - 2014-04-27 23:21:10 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#1476 - 2014-04-27 23:45:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
then fit for 4 launchers...

Apparently some people are having problems thinking "outside the box"...


the real solution is to fly another ship. The new Rattlesnake sucks.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1477 - 2014-04-28 06:23:53 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why is everyone so excited about the rattlesnake? It can no longer fit 5 heavy utility drones. The change to the drone bay is utterly without merit and is merely a gimmick. It has a little more DPS, but not enough to make it particularly interesting. It has no special ability to differentiate it from, say, a navy dominix. Perhaps it will continue to see use in level 5 mission running where care bears will celebrate the extra minute they have to recall ogres when they are targeted?
As someone who engages in terrible fitting practices such as cap stability (yes, I'm too lazy to manage modules) I'm anticipating an over 200DPS increase in my cruise missile RS. Others who fit more competently will see far more. I'm liking the fact that with the split in weapons focus I can use light drones without completely gimping my ships overall damage output. I'll actually still post decent numbers on medium to large targets while the drones handle close small ones.

Considering the current RS was mostly used for PvE anyways, was using 5 heavy utility drones ever really a common thing on that hull? Wouldn't the Ishtar be better for that?

And really, having a bonus to every missile size isn't enough to differentiate it from anything? I can't think of a single other BS with that ability.

- My opinion - Not asking you to agree with me - Just don't bother hating, I don't care.

The Snake, although now having a bonus to "all' launcher types is really only usable with RHML and Cruise. RHML - Pvp, Cruise - Pvp or Pve.
The all launcher bonus is really not that big a draw card that people will suddenly rush out and start buying them.

The Snake has always been mainly Pve and this is unlikely to change.
Existing users will adapt or sell and buy a Domi or Ishtar. The few who decide to try the "new improved" Snake for the 1st time, may be a little disappointed if their expectations are set too high.

Fit correctly it may even be fun at the odd gate camp but i wouldn't expect to see too many in this role.


I guess the question is not "what can the rs do well?" It's "what can the rs do so well that it justifies the extra cost over a Dominix?"

I am looking at pvp uses here because I happen to think that pirate ships should be focused on being excellent in pvp.

The vindicator, machariel and bhaalgorn have clear superiority over navy ships. The jury's out on the nightmare and the rattlesnake has been left behind once again.

It was good as a capless pve ship before, and it seems to me that that's what it will remain. What a missed opportunity :(

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1478 - 2014-04-28 06:40:48 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It was good as a capless pve ship before, and it seems to me that that's what it will remain. What a missed opportunity :(

I'm waiting for the new Mordu missile-based ships.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1479 - 2014-04-28 07:21:10 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I guess the question is not "what can the rs do well?" It's "what can the rs do so well that it justifies the extra cost over a Dominix?"
Regarding this question, it seems the goal is to remove it from direct comparison with a Domi. The 2 don't seem to me as being intended to fill the same role, not in the same way one might compare a Mega with a Vindi or a Tempest with a Mach.

Perhaps the issue is that the proposed change doesn't separate the 2 well enough?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1480 - 2014-04-28 07:54:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Regarding this question, it seems the goal is to remove it from direct comparison with a Domi. The 2 don't seem to me as being intended to fill the same role, not in the same way one might compare a Mega with a Vindi or a Tempest with a Mach.

I actually liked Mournful's original suggestion to overhaul the Rattlesnake as an ECM platform, but I guess the Rattlesnake will end up being a 'mixed bag of snakes' (pun intended). The Nightmare gets a well-needed buff, the Bhaalgorn is going to be an absolute terror and the Vindicator remains unchanged. I think the scan resolution and agility nerf to the Machariel is unnecessary and we still have a lot of unrealized potential with the Nestor.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.