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Interesting opinion on player Representation

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Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#41 - 2014-04-27 16:00:26 UTC
Next year I'm running for CSM. I know nothing about anything, I'm perfect.

Invalid signature format
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#42 - 2014-04-27 16:00:47 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Silent Rambo wrote:
Saw this on Reddit. Posting here:

http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/only-you-can-save-universe-ccp-seagull_26.html

EDIT: Since no one can be bothered to read the article posted, it goes over how non-representative CPM members can be and how the majority of non-Goon players can look at the long line of Goon representation as something bad for the games overall health.

Is that good enough for all the lazy people out there?

EDIT: Read the damn article if you want to comment.


The link does work. It is a long read but an interesting one.

I'm in the 'wait and see' contingent as well although I do agree that various events have been extremely worrying:

1) Unifex & CmdrWang leaving with no comment from CCP. Very unappreciative in my humble opinion.
2) P.C. in DUST 514. What a mess with virtual total ownership by DNS.
3) The CSM has become a bit of a joke with one 'official' goon candidate and numerous 'unofficial' goon candidates plus a number of other nullsec candidates. Failure of democracy or death by apathy? Take your pick.
4) Poor decision making at CCP: Financial writeoffs, dropping WoD, 'butter spread too thinly over too little bread'.

I'm painting a very black picture there in a 'Dinsdale' way and I do still think we have to wait and see what happens. The remaining industry dev blogs will be released at or during Fanfest and the changes so far proposed aren't that bad. It's going to be.........interesting. Smile


Can you list the "unofficial" goon CSM members along with a brief explaination of why they are?


Regarding the 'unofficial' as opposed to 'official' GSF candidates (Or GSF aligned candidates.) remark I made one of the GSF CSM candidates states in her own candidacy statement that she is the "official" candidate. It may mean that she is the official GSF or it may be a amusing or sarcastic comment on her part. Nevertheless I was quoting her term for her position and her reference to there probably being too many representatives of GSF on the CSM.

Personally I would like to see CCP make a rule that there can only be one candidate running from each alliance or from the corporations within an alliance.

Example: XX Alliance comprises of corporation A, B, & C. The alliance decides that member 'A1' of 'A' corporation should run as a candidate for the XX alliance to represent their views on the CSM. This would then mean that no other members of corporations A, B, or C could also run as candidates for the CSM in that year.

Given the biased state of CSM for as long as I can remember this rule would make it more likely that minority viewpoints could be represented rather than large block votes and their minions. We have just seen changes being made to stop the tournament being rigged from the outset. I think the same should be done for the CSM.


So which are the "numerous" unofficial CFC members? Come on, officially, there's Mynnna who's a goon, Kesper in the CFC (although he's basically disappeared so I don't know if he should be counted on either list)

Remember that my alliance was in a war against the CFC when I was elected. But if you want to count me as a "CFC" candidate I guess you have the right.

What about the other 11?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2014-04-27 16:02:10 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
When I mark tests I have a policy of NOT looking at who wrote them so as to avoid tainting the mark with bias. I do the same reading the forums. I only glance at the faces to the side AFTER reading the post. It is possible for someone you dislike or think little of to have a good idea.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=310880&find=unread Weirdest forum 'like' i ever gave

Mike Azariah wrote:
Accountants run the company? No. But man I loved going to the summit to meet their economist. Dr. Eyjo was a fantastic speaker and we managed to get to see him for two sessions (This is where the knowledgeable of you are getting jealous). In a game laughingly referred to as spreadsheets in space, do you honestly think that the people running it do not know how to track trends and cause/effect?

I remember the first time I saw him talking at Fanfest. "Oh no, here's a boring old man going to talk about the economy". Lol
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#44 - 2014-04-27 16:03:57 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Next year I'm running for CSM. I know nothing about anything, I'm perfect.



You're overqualified.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-04-27 16:09:53 UTC
Beta Maoye wrote:
When an idea is good as a whole but rejected by the power blocks because it hurts them, dev are lobbied. The idea is suppressed. Good reasons are ignored. Average players do not give their opinions as usual. So dev compromised and twisted the mechanic in favor of vested parties.

false
Dave Stark
#46 - 2014-04-27 16:15:17 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
It is a harsh truth that the 'apathy' is NOT the biggest issue but, instead, education.


i disagree.

i was very apathetic this year compared to last. last year i voted for 14 candidates on 3 accounts. this year i voted for like 7 on 1 account.

the CSM never seem to be doing that much other than "we had a chat to them, but here's a forum thread for your feedback anyway" which undermines the CSM when ccp just ask us directly anyway.
in addition, i don't want to read every candidates generic and boring pitches to figure out which ones i don't want to vote for, because you have to pick so many of them. i just want to vote for 1 person, like i do when i actually vote in elections. find 1 guy and go "he represents me best" not "this guy and these other 6 picked at random because i have slots to fill, but i'm not that interested in it"

not to mention, ccp made less effort to educate people this year than last year. last year i remember getting eve mails on my accounts, this year; nothing. if ccp can't be arsed to promote the csm, and tell us what they're doing. why should people care?

the lack of apathy is linked to education. people don't give a **** because nobody tells them why they should give a ****.
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#47 - 2014-04-27 16:16:12 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
When I mark tests I have a policy of NOT looking at who wrote them so as to avoid tainting the mark with bias. I do the same reading the forums. I only glance at the faces to the side AFTER reading the post. It is possible for someone you dislike or think little of to have a good idea.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=310880&find=unread Weirdest forum 'like' i ever gave


And you gave it to one of the best ideas I have ever seen on these forums. Perhaps the best even.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#48 - 2014-04-27 16:23:20 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
When I mark tests I have a policy of NOT looking at who wrote them so as to avoid tainting the mark with bias. I do the same reading the forums. I only glance at the faces to the side AFTER reading the post. It is possible for someone you dislike or think little of to have a good idea.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=310880&find=unread Weirdest forum 'like' i ever gave


And you gave it to one of the best ideas I have ever seen on these forums. Perhaps the best even.


And no dev could be arsed to post in it. But "they are aware of it" of course...

Invalid signature format
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#49 - 2014-04-27 16:29:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
It is a harsh truth that the 'apathy' is NOT the biggest issue but, instead, education.


i disagree.

i was very apathetic this year compared to last. last year i voted for 14 candidates on 3 accounts. this year i voted for like 7 on 1 account.

the CSM never seem to be doing that much other than "we had a chat to them, but here's a forum thread for your feedback anyway" which undermines the CSM when ccp just ask us directly anyway.
in addition, i don't want to read every candidates generic and boring pitches to figure out which ones i don't want to vote for, because you have to pick so many of them. i just want to vote for 1 person, like i do when i actually vote in elections. find 1 guy and go "he represents me best" not "this guy and these other 6 picked at random because i have slots to fill, but i'm not that interested in it"

not to mention, ccp made less effort to educate people this year than last year. last year i remember getting eve mails on my accounts, this year; nothing. if ccp can't be arsed to promote the csm, and tell us what they're doing. why should people care?

the lack of apathy is linked to education. people don't give a **** because nobody tells them why they should give a ****.



I would add that If the CSM was really that relevant and important, meeting minutes would require DAYS and not MONTHS to release. It's been pretty clear to anyone paying attention for very long where priorities lie with CCP in regard to the CSM and player communication. Since the CSM is a just a marketing focus group promoted as "player representation" that has no real oversight or influence whatsoever, it should come as no surprise there's apathy.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#50 - 2014-04-27 16:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.


Thread reopened.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#51 - 2014-04-28 03:36:49 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
It is a harsh truth that the 'apathy' is NOT the biggest issue but, instead, education.


i disagree.

i was very apathetic this year compared to last. last year i voted for 14 candidates on 3 accounts. this year i voted for like 7 on 1 account.

the CSM never seem to be doing that much other than "we had a chat to them, but here's a forum thread for your feedback anyway" which undermines the CSM when ccp just ask us directly anyway.
in addition, i don't want to read every candidates generic and boring pitches to figure out which ones i don't want to vote for, because you have to pick so many of them. i just want to vote for 1 person, like i do when i actually vote in elections. find 1 guy and go "he represents me best" not "this guy and these other 6 picked at random because i have slots to fill, but i'm not that interested in it"

not to mention, ccp made less effort to educate people this year than last year. last year i remember getting eve mails on my accounts, this year; nothing. if ccp can't be arsed to promote the csm, and tell us what they're doing. why should people care?

the lack of apathy is linked to education. people don't give a **** because nobody tells them why they should give a ****.



I would add that If the CSM was really that relevant and important, meeting minutes would require DAYS and not MONTHS to release. It's been pretty clear to anyone paying attention for very long where priorities lie with CCP in regard to the CSM and player communication. Since the CSM is a just a marketing focus group promoted as "player representation" that has no real oversight or influence whatsoever, it should come as no surprise there's apathy.


It wasn't until a few patches ago that the CSM had any say in anything. I forget the feature now. but a few expansions back the CSM partnered with a scrum team and gave step by step feed back and caused a feature to change quite a bit. I think the feature was well received but i dunno if CCP followed up and let the CSM have access like that again

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-04-28 04:31:05 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:

Mynnna's Cap Stable interview fairly clearly paints him as representing nullsec only. His responses touch on changes that can be divided into two kinds:

  1. those that affect nullsec only (interdictors, nullified interceptors, ESSes)
  2. those that buff nullsec (refining changes, industry changes)


I'm of the opinion that a CSM who represents players from other areas (highsec, lowsec, WH) would make a point of pointing that out. That Mynnna didn't do so means (to me) that he doesn't represent those players at all.

And honestly, this is a surprise to me. I would think that CCP and CSM would want to strive to have the CSM represent all players, regardless of who elected them.

MDD



Hi, I'm a highsec ganker. I have very little knowledge of nullsec, how it works, what it needs/doesn't need. Do you want me representing nullsec players, recommending changes that I think are good for null? Remember, I have no experience in that area, and at best, my recommendations are going to be heavily theorycrafted.

I'd much rather have CSM members who focus on the areas in EVE that they have the most expertise in.

I can now confirm that this thread confirms eve is dying. Along with those talking about hitting the like button on a Dinsdale idea, I, a mining highsec carebear just hit the like button on a CODE post. I think the universe is gonna explode.

Ok all joking aside, the only thing I would change about Lady Areola's post would be to substitute the word ganker for miner, and thats only to make it player specific.
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-04-28 05:27:30 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
It is a harsh truth that the 'apathy' is NOT the biggest issue but, instead, education.


i disagree.

i was very apathetic this year compared to last. last year i voted for 14 candidates on 3 accounts. this year i voted for like 7 on 1 account.

the CSM never seem to be doing that much other than "we had a chat to them, but here's a forum thread for your feedback anyway" which undermines the CSM when ccp just ask us directly anyway.
in addition, i don't want to read every candidates generic and boring pitches to figure out which ones i don't want to vote for, because you have to pick so many of them. i just want to vote for 1 person, like i do when i actually vote in elections. find 1 guy and go "he represents me best" not "this guy and these other 6 picked at random because i have slots to fill, but i'm not that interested in it"

not to mention, ccp made less effort to educate people this year than last year. last year i remember getting eve mails on my accounts, this year; nothing. if ccp can't be arsed to promote the csm, and tell us what they're doing. why should people care?

the lack of apathy is linked to education. people don't give a **** because nobody tells them why they should give a ****.

While I agree that your final line is an issue, its only part of the issue.
How many are apathetic to politics in general due to the partisan mudslinging and lies that have become the norm in real life politics. How many people are like me and enjoy this game of internet pixel spaceships as a chance to get away from all that.
The way the CSM thing is set up, just makes it easier to bring all the real life crap into the game.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-04-28 09:28:42 UTC
DaReaper wrote:

It wasn't until a few patches ago that the CSM had any say in anything. I forget the feature now. but a few expansions back the CSM partnered with a scrum team and gave step by step feed back and caused a feature to change quite a bit. I think the feature was well received but i dunno if CCP followed up and let the CSM have access like that again


They have, this past session we have had day to day contact with multiple teams. We get in closer and summits are less show and tell and more discuss and debate. But the summits are not where the real action takes place. It is in the day to day chats in secure channels and a hidden part of the forums where we discuss details of changes, dev blogs, etc.

The CSM that pioneered the access would be proud of the path we have expanded and mapped.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
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