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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1441 - 2014-04-26 22:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
As the drone-fanatic that I am, I like to use drope-ships for all tasks i could possibly use them for and I am always curious which drone-ship is the best for which task.

1. I do have to say, that I dislike the regular t1-Dominix still beeing the superior boat for drone application all around. .
I would like to see a T2 Combat version of the Dominix.


Destriouth Hollow wrote:
. A 7. highslot would at least make it possible for using it as a decent spider-rep-platform which would mean more dead Rattles and higher prices. Maybe this repping-possibility would make it a little more viable for incursions as well. the 7. highslot would only be used for the 2. drone link augmentor. so u dont have to gimp the rigs for the 5. launcher, would that really be a problem? After all you still have the problems of drones beeing vulnerable and missiles needing time to reach, Also it could be used pvp-wise for neuting/nosing.
b) for 0.0-ratting you pretty much need at least 80-90km drone-control range. (when you warp into a sight u come out at +-25km). so if ur unlucky and warp to 70 u have the npcs at 95km. if you warp to 50 you can have them at 25km. (the missing bonus for smaller drones will make this a big problem) sadly you cant just warp to 60. therefore a 2. drone range module is not really discussable, therefore robbing the 5. launcher hardpoint his usefullness.
c) I can see how noone wants the Rattlesnake to outdps the other pirate-BS in terms of max-dmg. However an added highslot would not add any higher potential for max dmg. It would only enable the ship to do what you clearly want it to do. Otherwise I would like a CCP statement on how the 7. highslot would make the Rattlesnake unbalanced/op for any specific task as I don't think that's th case..

  • Spider rep : The Nestor is so much more superior for this purpose (both due to armor, and it's bonus), that the 'snake shouldn't even try to compete.
  • If the 7th highslot would only be used for the drone link, why do you mention neuts and remote reps, ect? Logic is all over the place.
  • 0.0 ratting... if warping in at 70 gives you trouble, don't warp in at 70. Myself, I warped in closer so that I can shoot with Gardes instead of Wardens for the extra dps, and then the control range is a non-issue.

    • I would love to get +1 slot for the Rattlesnake, as clearly not only does it lose the "universal adaptibility" droneships supposedly enjoy, it becomes a mixed weapon platform needing twice the modules to apply it's theoretical damage.
    But I would like that module slot be anywhere BUT in the highs.
    Lows: Co-proc, and no problem with CPU.
    Mids: +1 TP / Omni

    Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
    Myrthiis
    Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
    #1442 - 2014-04-26 23:08:07 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    There's a gap between T2 and blue/green/rigged/implants needed.

    And for gods sakes type full words, reading that nearly made my eyes bleed. It's not a text message, this isn't 1996


    There is no gap sir,if u fit cruise or RHML only if u fit Torp launcher u get Cpu issue that u can easily overcome by pimping a bit (meaning = reasonnable price for the effect).
    Now maybe u did'nt realize but as an example a machariel with a rack of 1400 + a 100mn mwd +a t2 rigs+a large SB is something impossible at least if u want to keep ur 7 seven applications mod (i do remenber u,u can fit 10 application module on a RS) .
    That s a real powergrid issue as we cant fit the biggest turret available on the ships without sacrificing firepower ,but u sir no u don't have powergrid or cpu issues not matter what kind of weapons u threw at your ships u ll be fine with a few factions and a single implant .

    Talk about balance u said ...
    Gypsio III
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #1443 - 2014-04-26 23:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
    I dunno about the CPU issue really. There isn't a problem for a fleet buffer mode, it only really comes in when you do an ASB fit. Even so, a cruise ASB fit works with a CPU rig:

    [Rattlesnake, Cruise ASB]
    Internal Force Field Array I
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II

    Large Micro Jump Drive
    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
    X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Shield Boost Amplifier II

    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

    Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
    Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
    Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

    Garde II x2
    Ogre II x2
    Bouncer II x2
    Warrior II x5

    1368 DPS, 177k EHP with 9x overloaded ASB charges. As brawlers go, that's pretty good.

    The problem only really arises when you try to jam torps on, but with the current stats there's very little reason to actually use torps... So, fix torps pls?
    Myrthiis
    Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
    #1444 - 2014-04-26 23:20:27 UTC
    Gypsio III wrote:
    I dunno about the CPU issue really. There isn't a problem for a fleet buffer mode, it only really comes in when you do an ASB fit. Even so, a cruise ASB fit works with a CPU rig:

    [Rattlesnake, Cruise ASB]
    Internal Force Field Array I
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II

    Large Micro Jump Drive
    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
    X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Shield Boost Amplifier II

    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

    Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
    Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
    Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

    Garde II x2
    Ogre II x2
    Bouncer II x2
    Warrior II x5

    1368 DPS, 177k EHP with 9x overloaded ASB charges. As brawlers go, that's pretty good.

    The problem only really arises when you try to jam torps on, but with the current stats there's very little reason to actually use torps... So, fix torps pls?


    That's because u fit an ancilliary they come with an increased cost in cpu ,u cant have bread and butter
    KaDa en Bauldry
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #1445 - 2014-04-26 23:24:01 UTC
    Gypsio III wrote:
    1368 DPS, 177k EHP with 9x overloaded ASB charges. As brawlers go, that's pretty good.

    The problem only really arises when you try to jam torps on, but with the current stats there's very little reason to actually use torps... So, fix torps pls?

    That is how you make a compelling argument Myrthiis, not "showing" a "PvE" fit that has no cap life, needs +5 implant, and has to fire on a capital ship (slight exaggeration) apply it's paper damage.

    I'll prolly go with Co-Proc instead of DC for PvE + 3 rigors (and ofc different midslots).
    That way it fits fair enough.

    But still... having a ship that has too much of one resource and needs meta/faction/fitting mods for the other is a lot lopsided.
    When trading 1000 PG for 10 CPU is considered fair...

    Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
    Myrthiis
    Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
    #1446 - 2014-04-26 23:39:21 UTC
    KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
    Gypsio III wrote:
    1368 DPS, 177k EHP with 9x overloaded ASB charges. As brawlers go, that's pretty good.

    The problem only really arises when you try to jam torps on, but with the current stats there's very little reason to actually use torps... So, fix torps pls?

    That is how you make a compelling argument Myrthiis, not "showing" a "PvE" fit that has no cap life, needs +5 implant, and has to fire on a capital ship (slight exaggeration) apply it's paper damage.

    I'll prolly go with Co-Proc instead of DC for PvE + 3 rigors (and ofc different midslots).
    That way it fits fair enough.

    But still... having a ship that has too much of one resource and needs meta/faction/fitting mods for the other is a lot lopsided.
    When trading 1000 PG for 10 CPU is considered fair...


    AH u fitted a dc for pve ^^ what u lack to understand is first the fit linked is 88 % cap stable and need a + 5 implants no big deals pretty much every BS as to fit one when fitting costy turrets ,+ he doesn't have to fire on a capital ships but need TP instead of trackinglinks the same u dont want to sacrifice for your dps drone sake .

    But be rassured u lose only 12 dps for trading torps against Rhml and u dont need expensive factions or rigs for that ...
    Myrthiis
    Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
    #1447 - 2014-04-26 23:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
    Anyway Sisi will be the peace judge ,and i think the RS will be nerfed soon after he comes back Twisted
    Silvetica Dian
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #1448 - 2014-04-27 00:45:23 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    Myrthiis wrote:
    Ok now the RS CPU is too tight ...seriously u guys never stop .

    they gave u a ship with great bonus ,a ton of versality and fitting capability,new super drones bonused for long range ,and fifth launcher ,the biggest cpu on the line and u guys whinning on ur ability to deal with frigates ....

    Ok maybe we could discuss on the missile bonus but except that ,uve been quite blessed with ur change


    CPU is tight today on an active fit, never mind in the summer with more launchers.

    Drone ships are notoriously CPU bound, missile ships are the same - putting BOTH bonused without a minor CPU increase is pretty mean.


    I have a question.
    Which uses more CPU a T2 cruise launcher (assuming weapon upgrade 5) or a T2 DLA?
    i think you might find it is the DLA by 0.4 CPU.
    Just saying.

    Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
    Sgt Ocker
    What Corp is it
    #1449 - 2014-04-27 01:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
    Silvetica Dian wrote:
    afkalt wrote:
    Myrthiis wrote:
    Ok now the RS CPU is too tight ...seriously u guys never stop .

    they gave u a ship with great bonus ,a ton of versality and fitting capability,new super drones bonused for long range ,and fifth launcher ,the biggest cpu on the line and u guys whinning on ur ability to deal with frigates ....

    Ok maybe we could discuss on the missile bonus but except that ,uve been quite blessed with ur change


    CPU is tight today on an active fit, never mind in the summer with more launchers.

    Drone ships are notoriously CPU bound, missile ships are the same - putting BOTH bonused without a minor CPU increase is pretty mean.


    I have a question.
    Which uses more CPU a T2 cruise launcher (assuming weapon upgrade 5) or a T2 DLA?
    i think you might find it is the DLA by 0.4 CPU.
    Just saying.

    And to fit the T2 DLA now you need a CPU upgrade
    Just sayin

    Snake was tight on CPU before - It is just as tight now - Intended? Of course

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
    Master Odysseus
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1450 - 2014-04-27 04:17:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Master Odysseus
    Am I the only one who feels a little strange about the rattlesnake now having only 84km drone control range, since only one high slot empty for 1 drone link augmentor? - And lets face it, we all know most ppl will have 81km range, very few have electronic drone interfacing lvl 5.

    Locking at 94km firing with half dps (all the more so with a type of dps (missiles) that have reduced dmg projection towards the type of rats you want to kill first (small ones), waiting for rats to close up to 81-84km in order to apply the rest half dmg, that's one huge gap/dead time. And if you are to play from medium range now well yeah ok, that's like one different rattlesnake we're talking about.

    Imo give it a small drone control range bonus (if not one more high slot from fear that it will utilize it with different ways (ie spider tanking/capping)). That bonus could be as small as 15%?
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1451 - 2014-04-27 04:30:20 UTC
    Master Odysseus wrote:
    Am I the only one who feels a little strange about the rattlesnake now having only 84km drone control range, since only one high slot empty for 1 drone link augmentor? - And lets face it, we all know most ppl will have 81km range, very few have electronic drone interfacing lvl 5.

    Locking at 94km firing with half dps (all the more so with a type of dps (missiles) that have reduced dmg projection towards the type of rats you want to kill first (small ones), waiting for rats to close up to 81-84km in order to apply the rest half dmg, that's one huge gap/dead time. And if you are to play from medium range now well yeah ok, that's like one different rattlesnake we're talking about.

    Imo give it a small drone control range bonus (if not one more high slot from fear that it will utilize it with different ways (ie spider tanking/capping)). That bonus could be as small as 15%?


    Or just fit one less launcher. With the new missile bonus it's still far and away more dps than you have right now.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1452 - 2014-04-27 07:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
    Gypsio III wrote:
    I dunno about the CPU issue really. There isn't a problem for a fleet buffer mode, it only really comes in when you do an ASB fit. Even so, a cruise ASB fit works with a CPU rig:

    [Rattlesnake, Cruise ASB]
    Internal Force Field Array I
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Drone Damage Amplifier II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II

    Large Micro Jump Drive
    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
    X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Shield Boost Amplifier II

    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
    Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

    Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
    Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
    Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

    Garde II x2
    Ogre II x2
    Bouncer II x2
    Warrior II x5

    1368 DPS, 177k EHP with 9x overloaded ASB charges. As brawlers go, that's pretty good.

    The problem only really arises when you try to jam torps on, but with the current stats there's very little reason to actually use torps... So, fix torps pls?


    It's because I'm in the habit of rigging the launchers.

    Rigged launchers are a couple more CPU than DLAs.

    There are ways around it, but I still feel it could do with a little help here.


    Edit: omnis are CPU hungry too, and mandatory for sentry use.
    gascanu
    Bearing Srl.
    #1453 - 2014-04-27 07:56:22 UTC
    Myrthiis wrote:


    U've asked for a torp set i gave u one i never said it ll be efficient but if u want u can fit it .Machariel for example can't fit that kind of setup with 1400 mm u need a full genolution set and a + 6 % grid implant ....and just in case ur free to replace fed link with tp and replace launcher rigs by ccc :)

    But the RS can do that maybe not recommanded but he can the mach 1400 cant ...


    i will trade you a rattlesnake for one of those "lacking 'greed" machariel any day, and since the rattlesnake is so good now with this many fitting options and stuff i'm sure you will accept such a good offer, eh?
    Destriouth Hollow
    Star-Destroying-Warlords
    #1454 - 2014-04-27 08:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
    KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
    Destriouth Hollow wrote:
    As the drone-fanatic that I am, I like to use drope-ships for all tasks i could possibly use them for and I am always curious which drone-ship is the best for which task.

    1. I do have to say, that I dislike the regular t1-Dominix still beeing the superior boat for drone application all around.     .
    I would like to see a T2 Combat version of the Dominix.


    Destriouth Hollow wrote:
    . A 7. highslot would at least make it possible for using it as a decent spider-rep-platform which would mean more dead Rattles and higher prices. Maybe this repping-possibility would make it a little more viable for incursions as well. the 7. highslot would only be used for the 2. drone link augmentor. so u dont have to gimp the rigs for the 5. launcher, would that really be a problem? After all you still have the problems of drones beeing vulnerable and missiles needing time to reach, Also it could be used pvp-wise for neuting/nosing.
    b) for 0.0-ratting you pretty much need at least 80-90km drone-control range. (when you warp into a sight u come out at +-25km). so if ur unlucky and warp to 70 u have the npcs at 95km. if you warp to 50 you can have them at 25km. (the missing bonus for smaller drones will make this a big problem) sadly you cant just warp to 60. therefore a 2. drone range module is not really discussable, therefore robbing the 5. launcher hardpoint his usefullness.
    c) I can see how noone wants the Rattlesnake to outdps the other pirate-BS in terms of max-dmg. However an added highslot would not add any higher potential for max dmg. It would only enable the ship to do what you clearly want it to do. Otherwise I would like a CCP statement on how the 7. highslot would make the Rattlesnake unbalanced/op for any specific task as I don't think that's th case..

  • Spider rep : The Nestor is so much more superior for this purpose (both due to armor, and it's bonus), that the 'snake shouldn't even try to compete.
  • If the 7th highslot would only be used for the drone link, why do you mention neuts and remote reps, ect? Logic is all over the place.
  • 0.0 ratting... if warping in at 70 gives you trouble, don't warp in at 70. Myself, I warped in closer so that I can shoot with Gardes instead of Wardens for the extra dps, and then the control range is a non-issue.

    • I would love to get +1 slot for the Rattlesnake, as clearly not only does it lose the "universal adaptibility" droneships supposedly enjoy, it becomes a mixed weapon platform needing twice the modules to apply it's theoretical damage.
    But I would like that module slot be anywhere BUT in the highs.
    Lows: Co-proc, and no problem with CPU.
    Mids: +1 TP / Omni


    1. Give the Rattlesnake its 275% + 300% bonus upgrade and it IS the improved drone-platform for sentries. Still not for smalls/mediums/ewar, but at LEAST for sentries/heavies. (which is its main application)

    2. Obviously annother mid-slot / lowslot would improve the ship much more than the highslot, but I guess that they doublechecked this and found it as beeing "too powerfull". My point here:
    At least the additional highslot would help the ship a little bit for the roles CCP likely wants it in and there is no way that this could possibly make the ship OP. It would not bring any heavy risks for making the ship OP, but would still help it in the pvp/pve-section.
    I mentioned neuts/spiderreps for pvp and drone link augmentors/spiderreps for pve, as the highslot would be on the ship for both uses. And my point is both improvements beeing unproblematic.
    Can anyone here see a point where this improvement would be a problem?
    Cassius Invictus
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #1455 - 2014-04-27 08:45:59 UTC
    Boring... RS this, RS that... lets talk about how Nightmare is overpowered with its 150% AB bonus... Fight!
    gascanu
    Bearing Srl.
    #1456 - 2014-04-27 11:04:35 UTC
    Cassius Invictus wrote:
    Boring... RS this, RS that... lets talk about how Nightmare is overpowered with its 150% AB bonus... Fight!



    if the ship will be "too OP" ccp will nerf it pretty fast.

    if instead a ship will be lacking or just bad, it will have to wait for years till a next ballance pass will be done;

    that's why i don't understand ppl who will hurry and cry "OP! OP!" even it's pretty clear they never flown that ship. but hey, eft warriors know better...
    Master Odysseus
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1457 - 2014-04-27 12:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Master Odysseus
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Master Odysseus wrote:
    Am I the only one who feels a little strange about the rattlesnake now having only 84km drone control range, since only one high slot empty for 1 drone link augmentor? - And lets face it, we all know most ppl will have 81km range, very few have electronic drone interfacing lvl 5.

    Locking at 94km firing with half dps (all the more so with a type of dps (missiles) that have reduced dmg projection towards the type of rats you want to kill first (small ones), waiting for rats to close up to 81-84km in order to apply the rest half dmg, that's one huge gap/dead time. And if you are to play from medium range now well yeah ok, that's like one different rattlesnake we're talking about.

    Imo give it a small drone control range bonus (if not one more high slot from fear that it will utilize it with different ways (ie spider tanking/capping)). That bonus could be as small as 15%?


    Or just fit one less launcher. With the new missile bonus it's still far and away more dps than you have right now.



    Like you do in every other ship eh? - You have the ability to fit 6..7.... 8 guns but no, you fit one less cuz you simply don't have enough high slots to utilize your own ship *bonus* (drone dps).

    Like the Mach... not a "drone boat" but hey, it has 2 high slots for drone links or w/e...
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1458 - 2014-04-27 12:07:37 UTC
    Master Odysseus wrote:

    Like you do in every other ship eh? - You have the ability to fit 6..7.... 8 guns but no, you fit one less cuz you simply don't have enough high slots to utilize your own ship *bonus*.

    Like the Mach... not a "drone boat" but hey, it has 2 high slots for drone links or w/e...


    No-one is making you fit 2 DLAs.

    And a mach has a single utility.
    Master Odysseus
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1459 - 2014-04-27 12:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Master Odysseus
    afkalt wrote:
    Master Odysseus wrote:

    Like you do in every other ship eh? - You have the ability to fit 6..7.... 8 guns but no, you fit one less cuz you simply don't have enough high slots to utilize your own ship *bonus*.

    Like the Mach... not a "drone boat" but hey, it has 2 high slots for drone links or w/e...


    No-one is making you fit 2 DLAs.

    And a mach has a single utility.


    1) ofc no-one is making me but a drone boat with 80km drone range is not a drone boat, it's an imitation of a drone boat.

    2) soz, I meant TFI
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1460 - 2014-04-27 13:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
    So fit two and still have 50% more missile DPS than today. Or rig it at the cost of applied missile DPS. 1300-1400 DPS at 100km is a crazy ask.

    A single DLA is all the TFI needs to go to lock range, it's very short. It's also very tight on CPU needing either massive bling or fitting mods to eek it all on. And let's not forgoet the TFI has a wafer thin tank when fitted for max damage, a rattlesnake will not. Look at Gypsios fit - 1300+ DPS at 177k EHP. EHP a TFI can only dream of.