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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1421 - 2014-04-26 17:26:23 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
You didn't put any omnilinks on that ship.

...DOM? You mean the new drone tracking module? Or I don't know what. One could work, but I'd rather have them as active module if they are going to be like the balance between TE and TC, and more BCs.

DOM = drone omni module.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#1422 - 2014-04-26 17:43:50 UTC
Sooooooo................

After reading this thread for a few days and dwelling on what these changes mean to me.

(PVE L4 Rattlesnake pilot, dual boxing missions in a pair of them)

I tend to use my lights a lot more than my mediums, then swtich to sentries for anything that isn't a frigate or closer than 10k.
Or for any mission where I have to fly some distance to a gate, Increased speed of meds may make them viable for this, but rat agro on meds makes me think not.

In general the changes for me will mean higher missile consumption, and situationally higher dps, probably around the same averaged over time. Perhaps slightly higher averaged over time.

This would be with a realistic omni tanked passive fit ship, which I am kind of a fan of for ridiculous tank. Less for the mission rats but as anti gank. So let's not have the active tank is better argument please, I agree it yields higher dps numbers. At my current skills my RS runs 786 fit window dps, and cannot die in any level 4, so I'm happy with that.

Changing fit and drones every mission is a pain, so giving it 50 m3 to 100 m3 more drone bay, and increasing cargo hold by the amount of drone bay lost to facilitate higher missile usage would be great, and reasonable imo. I mean the ship didn't get any smaller right? So if the drone bay shrinks, some m3 should be gained somewhere.


Keeping 50% bonus to lights and mediums along with other changes would not be overpowered, and would make me happier as a mission runner. Those huge dps numbers quoted earlier most definitely did not come from launching lights or meds. And those insane dps numbers from the TFI vs what the EFT warriors quoted for possible RS fits mean my favourite ship still falls short in raw gank dps , by quite a bit, so again keeping light and medium bonus cannot be OP in any way.

I would like the same number of slots as the other ships (20) with RS gaining a hi slot, but I can live without it if that is what CCP does. But it seems to me especially with the de-emphasis on drones as the main weapon, the argument that the RS got one less slot because of drone bonuses is negated,and should get the same number of slots as the rest get.

Or a range control bonus as suggested, either/or.

A lot of the argument seems to be centered around "what if" pvp scenarios. Seriously, how many people run RS's in pvp?
I am sure it is done, but percentage wise, I am betting it's a pretty low number. And that number won't change in any significant way with the new changes, Other ships do it better, and cheaper.


PS. A little more cpu might be good. As suggested by quite a few people.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1423 - 2014-04-26 17:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
It won't fall short, it'll surpass it. The 22xx TFI are not workable fits - those are 1300-1500 range, the rattlesnake with hit that, comfortably with a workable fit - and a stinking great tank to boot.

I wouldn't worry about PvE to be truthful - remember you have bonused missiles and precisions actually wreck enemy frigates stupendously well.

Edit: You could probably get nearly as high as the silly TFIs on paper, I've not looked at torps. Might be interesting.

Ninja edit: Yup. Rage torps, 3 DDA, 3CN BCU, heat and implants is 2259 DPS with a (heated) 922 DPS omni tank. Mods are <500m. Rigs empty.
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#1424 - 2014-04-26 18:05:59 UTC
Yes I am not worried that my PVE RS will no longer be great for it's purpose, and I will still use them,.

Just think it is reasonable to gain cargo hold by the amount of drone bay lost to help out with higher missile usage. Since overall m3 of the ship is unchanged.

Having more than the minimum drone bay would help with ease of use . Would probably have an effect in pvp, since ewar drones could be kept in the extra space, but again, pvp RS usage just cannot be that significant.

Perhaps a dev could show me I am wrong about that.


I don't realistically think anything in this thread will change what CCP is going to do, but one can always hope.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1425 - 2014-04-26 18:08:57 UTC
Now the hold, I can get behind. And CPU!!!


I agree on PvP but the lower drone count for the same DPS might become a 'thing' bypassing assist 'limits'
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1426 - 2014-04-26 18:35:47 UTC
CPU!

The hold I don't really mind, I always try to have a full flight of Berzers and Bouncers on me for the occasional Angel mission, now I have suddenly around 100m3 spare.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#1427 - 2014-04-26 19:48:49 UTC
Ok now the RS CPU is too tight ...seriously u guys never stop .

they gave u a ship with great bonus ,a ton of versality and fitting capability,new super drones bonused for long range ,and fifth launcher ,the biggest cpu on the line and u guys whinning on ur ability to deal with frigates ....

Ok maybe we could discuss on the missile bonus but except that ,uve been quite blessed with ur change
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1428 - 2014-04-26 19:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Myrthiis wrote:
Ok now the RS CPU is too tight ...seriously u guys never stop .

they gave u a ship with great bonus ,a ton of versality and fitting capability,new super drones bonused for long range ,and fifth launcher ,the biggest cpu on the line and u guys whinning on ur ability to deal with frigates ....

Ok maybe we could discuss on the missile bonus but except that ,uve been quite blessed with ur change

The fitting room didn't change while an extra hardpoint was added.
Normally that would mean the PG needs to be increased, but it's still generous enough.
The CPU however cannot realistically accomodate a torp setup I would now be interested in fitting.

Hence I suggested a reduction in PG, for an increase of CPU.
If you think I'm unreasonable, it saddens me greatly, but will probably survive somehow.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#1429 - 2014-04-26 20:51:19 UTC
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
Ok now the RS CPU is too tight ...seriously u guys never stop .

they gave u a ship with great bonus ,a ton of versality and fitting capability,new super drones bonused for long range ,and fifth launcher ,the biggest cpu on the line and u guys whinning on ur ability to deal with frigates ....

Ok maybe we could discuss on the missile bonus but except that ,uve been quite blessed with ur change

The fitting room didn't change while an extra hardpoint was added.
Normally that would mean the PG needs to be increased, but it's still generous enough.
The CPU however cannot realistically accomodate a torp setup I would now be interested in fitting.

Hence I suggested a reduction in PG, for an increase of CPU.
If you think I'm unreasonable, it saddens me greatly, but will probably survive somehow.


The RS has and won't have any problem to fit a torp set up but need skills to make it fit or an expensive gist large SB and thats even before the new faction drone module or faction BCS
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1430 - 2014-04-26 20:53:19 UTC
I have a suspicion that the CPU was deliberately not increased when the extra missile hardpoint was added, and I'm very willing to wager that the CPU was left untouched "to create interesting fitting choices".
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1431 - 2014-04-26 20:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Myrthiis wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Hence I suggested a reduction in PG, for an increase of CPU.
If you think I'm unreasonable, it saddens me greatly, but will probably survive somehow.

The RS has and won't have any problem to fit a torp set up but need skills to make it fit or an expensive gist large SB and thats even before the new faction drone module or faction BCS

Please give an example for L4 usage against Serpentis for instance.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1432 - 2014-04-26 21:05:28 UTC
Myrthiis wrote:
Ok now the RS CPU is too tight ...seriously u guys never stop .

they gave u a ship with great bonus ,a ton of versality and fitting capability,new super drones bonused for long range ,and fifth launcher ,the biggest cpu on the line and u guys whinning on ur ability to deal with frigates ....

Ok maybe we could discuss on the missile bonus but except that ,uve been quite blessed with ur change


CPU is tight today on an active fit, never mind in the summer with more launchers.

Drone ships are notoriously CPU bound, missile ships are the same - putting BOTH bonused without a minor CPU increase is pretty mean.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#1433 - 2014-04-26 21:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Hence I suggested a reduction in PG, for an increase of CPU.
If you think I'm unreasonable, it saddens me greatly, but will probably survive somehow.

The RS has and won't have any problem to fit a torp set up but need skills to make it fit or an expensive gist large SB and thats even before the new faction drone module or faction BCS

Please give an example for L4 usage against Serpentis for instance.


x2 launcher rig t1
x1 overclocking unit rig t1
X5 torpedo launcher t2
x1 dla t2
x3 fed trackinglinks
x1 Mjd or mwd
x2 pith A hardener
x 1 gist x large
x4 DDa t2
x2 BCS t2

it fits with ADWU lvl 4 and launcher rig lvl 4 ... u need a + 5 % electronic implant ,the fit cost a rough 700 M not that expensive for a pirate BS
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1434 - 2014-04-26 21:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: KaDa en Bauldry
Myrthiis wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Hence I suggested a reduction in PG, for an increase of CPU.
If you think I'm unreasonable, it saddens me greatly, but will probably survive somehow.

The RS has and won't have any problem to fit a torp set up but need skills to make it fit or an expensive gist large SB and thats even before the new faction drone module or faction BCS

Please give an example for L4 usage against Serpentis for instance.


x2 launcher rig t1
x1 overclocking unit rig t1
X5 torpedo launcher t2
x1 dla t2
x3 fed trackinglinks
x1 Mjd or mwd
x2 pith A hardener
x 1 gist x large
x4 DDa t2
x2 BCS t2

it fits with ADWU lvl 4 and launcher rig lvl 4 ... u need a + 5 % electronic implant ,the fit cost a rough 700 M not that expensive for a pirate BS

If I replace the Torps with Cruises, it's an OK fit.

Exp radius of 420 with two rigors and no TP, range 20km and no reliable way of dictating it, or 33km and 580 Exp rad, all the while cap lasts 2.5 mins if the MWD is fit but off.

I suggest replacing the SB with an XL-ASB, fits a bit worse, cap stable with MWD off and lasts 2 mins with MWD on.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#1435 - 2014-04-26 21:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Hence I suggested a reduction in PG, for an increase of CPU.
If you think I'm unreasonable, it saddens me greatly, but will probably survive somehow.

The RS has and won't have any problem to fit a torp set up but need skills to make it fit or an expensive gist large SB and thats even before the new faction drone module or faction BCS

Please give an example for L4 usage against Serpentis for instance.


x2 launcher rig t1
x1 overclocking unit rig t1
X5 torpedo launcher t2
x1 dla t2
x3 fed trackinglinks
x1 Mjd or mwd
x2 pith A hardener
x 1 gist x large
x4 DDa t2
x2 BCS t2

it fits with ADWU lvl 4 and launcher rig lvl 4 ... u need a + 5 % electronic implant ,the fit cost a rough 700 M not that expensive for a pirate BS

If I replace the Torps with Cruises, it's an OK fit.

Exp radius of 420 with two rigors and no TP, range 20km and no way of dictating range, or 33km and 580 Exp rad, all the while cap lasts 2.5 mins if the MWD is fit but off.


U've asked for a torp set i gave u one i never said it ll be efficient but if u want u can fit it .Machariel for example can't fit that kind of setup with 1400 mm u need a full genolution set and a + 6 % grid implant ....and just in case ur free to replace fed link with tp and replace launcher rigs by ccc :)

But the RS can do that maybe not recommanded but he can the mach 1400 cant ...
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1436 - 2014-04-26 21:44:07 UTC
Myrthiis wrote:
U've asked for a torp set i gave u one i never said it ll be efficient but if u want u can fit it .Machariel for example can't fit that kind of setup with 1400 mm u need a full genolution set and a + 6 % grid implant ....and just in case ur free to replace fed link with tp and replace launcher rigs by ccc :)

But the RS can do that maybe not recommanded but he can the mach 1400 cant ...

I'm ok with an 1200 Mach fit.

Trouble with Missiles is, that you can't use a smaller caliber, unlike guns that have 2-3 per size and range.

I imagine it was not quite obvious, but I *am* grateful for the fit, it did get me thinking.

Clearly I'm trying to get an efficient fit, next time I'll add that to the list of criteria.

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#1437 - 2014-04-26 22:03:40 UTC
Well , again as proved u dont have any CPU issue with RS unlike others BS who have real issue with their powergrid as i d love to fit a large SB +100 mwd+ a t2 dps rigs .
A bunch of pilots have issues to compromize between drone and launcher end of the story .RS will be an awesome l 4 grinder as sisi will prove it .
This thread have been polluted from too long by a discussion over the RS ,thats is clearly one of the most blessed as well as in fitting capability and dps applied or not.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1438 - 2014-04-26 22:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Myrthiis wrote:
Well , again as proved u dont have any CPU issue with RS unlike others BS who have real issue with their powergrid as i d love to fit a large SB +100 mwd+ a t2 dps rigs .
A bunch of pilots have issues to compromize between drone and launcher end of the story .RS will be an awesome l 4 grinder as sisi will prove it .
This thread have been polluted from too long by a discussion over the RS ,thats is clearly one of the most blessed as well as in fitting capability and dps applied or not.


If you need dead space, faction, fitting rig and implants to find a workable fit, I'd say it's pretty damned obvious there are fitting issues.

Please enlighten us with these 'other pilots' with drones and missiles because only the TFI is in a similar position.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#1439 - 2014-04-26 22:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
As the drone-fanatic that I am, I like to use drope-ships for all tasks i could possibly use them for and I am always curious which drone-ship is the best for which task.

1. I do have to say, that I dislike the regular t1-Dominix still beeing the superior boat for drone application all around.

= Comparison between Rattlesnake and Dominix=
- (future and past) Sentries on the Dominix have a tracking bonus and make the Dominix the superior boat for sentry-dps
- (future) 5 heavy Ewar drones on the Dominix makes it the superior ship for Ewar-drones now too
- (future) 5 small/medium drones are now unbonused and makes the Dominix the superior boat for that too

I strongly dislike that there is no real subcapital improvement over the Dominix if u want to deal max dmg with ur drones. But I guess I will have to cope with that.
I would still really like if you could just swap the bonus around a tiny little bit, so that the Rattlesnake ends up with 8 effective drones. (make the drone bonus 300% and lower the missile-bonus that little bit accordingly)
I don't think this would change much balance-wise, but it would give all the drone-fanatics like me the feeling that they actually improved their ship by using the pirate-faction-drone-battleship and are not just flying a worse shield-dominix with additional good missiles.



2. I wonder why you added the 5. missile-high-slot without adding annother highslot. I have two reasons why improving it to 7 highslots would be a good idea and a third reason why it would not cause problems.

a) I'm pretty sure that CCP would like to see rattlesnakes to be on par with the other pirate-BS in terms of price and PvP-usage. Currently it is by far the cheapest pirate-BS because it can neither be used for incursions nor PvP. The change will maybe slightly change this but not enough. A 7. highslot would at least make it possible for using it as a decent spider-rep-platform which would mean more dead Rattles and higher prices. Maybe this repping-possibility would make it a little more viable for incursions as well. the 7. highslot would only be used for the 2. drone link augmentor. so u dont have to gimp the rigs for the 5. launcher, would that really be a problem? After all you still have the problems of drones beeing vulnerable and missiles needing time to reach, Also it could be used pvp-wise for neuting/nosing.
b) for 0.0-ratting you pretty much need at least 80-90km drone-control range. (when you warp into a sight u come out at +-25km). so if ur unlucky and warp to 70 u have the npcs at 95km. if you warp to 50 you can have them at 25km. (the missing bonus for smaller drones will make this a big problem) sadly you cant just warp to 60. therefore a 2. drone range module is not really discussable, therefore robbing the 5. launcher hardpoint his usefullness.
c) I can see how noone wants the Rattlesnake to outdps the other pirate-BS in terms of max-dmg. However an added highslot would not add any higher potential for max dmg. It would only enable the ship to do what you clearly want it to do. Otherwise I would like a CCP statement on how the 7. highslot would make the Rattlesnake unbalanced/op for any specific task as I don't think that's the case.
Dont foget: to hit far with sentries you need 3 stats to be high enough:
1. optimal + falloff of the drones
2. locking range
3. drone control range

I'd love to receive a statement on this.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1440 - 2014-04-26 22:45:57 UTC
There's a gap between T2 and blue/green/rigged/implants needed.

And for gods sakes type full words, reading that nearly made my eyes bleed. It's not a text message, this isn't 1996